The Trinity

[Muffled]

Proverbs 8:20 says--this being was produced as the beginning of his ways( creation) God created Michael( Jesus) directly( first and last)-- all other things were created through him--making him the master worker.

I beleive there is absolutely no mention of Michael in that chapter of Proverbs. It does not say that wisdom was created but that it existed at creation. No doubt Jesus is wisdom personified because it is only God who is wise.

 

[Muffled]

There is merit in attributing prophetic fulfillment to Jesus in a theological and doctrinal context, but not in an exegetical context. IOW, you can say, "I believe Jesus is the fulfillment of OT prophecy." But you can't take an OT passage and use it as a proof, saying, "See! They're talking about Jesus there!" Because they aren't talking about Jesus. Only hindsight is 20/20.

Howeveer Jesus said it many times that scripture was fulfilled prophecy in Him. He is still capable of saying so and He should know.

 

[sojourner]

Howeveer Jesus said it many times that scripture was fulfilled prophecy in Him. He is still capable of saying so and He should know.

Provide sources, plz.

 

[cataway]

Provide sources, plz.

i have noted that even if Muffled did provide sources you would make it a point to ignore them

 

[sojourner]

Snarky much?

 

[cataway]

what go's around comes around

 

[sojourner]

what go's around comes around

Again: Sources, plz.

 

[Sculelos]

|--------|-------|------|-----|----|---|--|+-|--|---|----|-----|------|-------|--------|

| Portals
- Electrons
+ Neutrons

God is the Electron aka the source of all energy and order.

Jesus is the Neutron which is the physical makeup of everything.

The Holy spirit is the portals binding together with God and Jesus working together.

God is infinite
Jesus is finite
The Holy Spirit is God and Jesus working together.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Seeing people argue over the Trinity and the Bible amuses me to no end. It is like seeing a pack of kids argue over the Easter Bunny and whether or not he lays eggs.
The trinity is by far the most un-Judaic claim along with the existence of Jesus. The fact that it is still debated after so many millennia is only "testament" that it is not palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills.

 

[Vouthon]

The fact that it is still debated after so many millennia is only "testament" that it is not palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills.

You miss the entire point of the concept of a "triune God" Sterling (as I think do some others on this thread) It is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one's reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to "let go" and rest in unknowing.

It isn't meant to be "palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills". Someone once compared it to a Zen koan, which is not also not intended to be rational to ordinary thinking but urges one to move beyond this.

It is a "mystery" of faith. A mystery is not a mystery if it can be proven mathematically.

The Spanish mystic Blessed Ramon Llull once put forth the truly sweet idea that our grasping after God through the knowledge of our human intelligence is comparable to little children chasing after and trying to catch butterflies in a field. They find themselves unable to catch the insects and instead merely trample on the flowers beneath their feet.

Llull then explained that God shows Himself to the simple in faith, not to the subtle, to the heart and not to the intellect which, while one should stretch it to the full through searching philosophical inquiry, one will eventually reach a dead-end when the door of knowledge closes and we must rest in unknowing, approaching God through "the window of love" p LOVE :flirt: :angel2 to use Llull's terminology.

This is applicable to the mystery of the Incomprehensible Trinity in Unity of the Godhead.

I will quote it for you to read here. Try and picture it:

"...The Lover entered a delightful meadow, and saw in the meadow many children who were pursuing butterflies, and trampling down the flowers ; and, the more the children laboured to catch the butterflies, the higher did these fly. And the Lover, as he watched them, said: 'Such are they who with subtle reasoning attempt to comprehend the Beloved, Who opens the doors to the simple and closes them to the subtle. And Faith reveals the secrets of the Beloved through the window of love.'..."

- Blessed Ramon Llull (1232 – ca. 1315), Spanish Catholic mystic & Franciscan tertiary

At the highest mystical states, the Trinity is something to be lived and experienced rather than thought about.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

260 The ultimate end of the whole divine economy is the entry of God's creatures into the perfect unity of the Blessed Trinity.100 But even now we are called to be a dwelling for the Most Holy Trinity: "If a man loves me", says the Lord, "he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him":101

O my God, Trinity whom I adore, help me forget myself entirely so to establish myself in you, unmovable and peaceful as if my soul were already in eternity. May nothing be able to trouble my peace or make me leave you, O my unchanging God, but may each minute bring me more deeply into your mystery! Grant my soul peace. Make it your heaven, your beloved dwelling and the place of your rest. May I never abandon you there, but may I be there, whole and entire, completely vigilant in my faith, entirely adoring, and wholly given over to your creative action.102

Blessed Ruysbroeck explained this:

"...The spirit is caught up in the embrace of the Holy Trinity and eternally abides within the superessential Unity in a state of rest and blissful enjoyment. In this same Unity, considered now as regards its fruitfulness, the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father, while all creatures are in them both...To comprehend and understand God as he is in himself, above and beyond all likenesses, is to be God with God, without intermediary...And therefrom follows the last point that can be put into words, that is, when the spirit beholds a Darkness into which it cannot enter with the reason. And there it feels itself dead and lost to itself, and one with God without difference and without distinction..."

- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293-1381), Flemish mystic & Catholic priest (The Sparkling Stone)

 

[Sculelos]

You miss the entire point of the concept of a "triune God" Sterling (as I think do some others on this thread) It is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one's reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to "let go" and rest in unknowing. :

We can rest assured that we can know what God is like, what Jesus is like and what the holy spirit is like.

God is infinite, he is from everlasting to everlasting. God is the order of everything that exist.

Jesus is finite, he is the beginning and the end. That is to say he is the physical makeup of all that exist. Jesus does and did whatever God the father says.

The holy spirit is God and Jesus working together.

God is spirit, Jesus is the physical manifestation of the spirit. Jesus existed in the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth. That is because Jesus IS the heavens and the Earth. God is the electrical order of everything that exist and he knows all that has happened and all that will happen. Just because he knows that though doesn't mean that it has already happened in the finite sense of the word.

I'm thankful that God has been graceful into trying to bring all to repentance but saying that the end draws near...

 

[Sha'irullah]

You miss the entire point of the concept of a "triune God" Sterling (as I think do some others on this thread) It is deliberately paradoxical. It is supposed to stretch one's reasoning powers to the limit, until the individual realizes that he cannot comprehend it with his mind and simply has to "let go" and rest in unknowing.

It isn't meant to be "palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills". Someone once compared it to a Zen koan, which is not also not intended to be rational to ordinary thinking but urges one to move beyond this.

It is a "mystery" of faith. A mystery is not a mystery if it can be proven mathematically.

The Spanish mystic Blessed Ramon Llull once put forth the truly sweet idea that our grasping after God through the knowledge of our human intelligence is comparable to little children chasing after and trying to catch butterflies in a field. They find themselves unable to catch the insects and instead merely trample on the flowers beneath their feet.

Llull then explained that God shows Himself to the simple in faith, not to the subtle, to the heart and not to the intellect which, while one should stretch it to the full through searching philosophical inquiry, one will eventually reach a dead-end when the door of knowledge closes and we must rest in unknowing, approaching God through "the window of love" p LOVE :flirt: :angel2 to use Llull's terminology.

This is applicable to the mystery of the Incomprehensible Trinity in Unity of the Godhead.

Saying god is a mystery is a cop-out (no offense). If god is a mystery then one cannot be sure of this deity and the very fact Christianity preaches salvation is contradictory to the nature of your own god. This god created basic reasoning skills them created a theology which underachieves this and falls into logical fallacy.
This is highly bizarre behavior for a loving god who wishes to redeem mankind with his mandates which are not even compatible to human reasoning.

 

[Sha'irullah]

We can rest assured that we can know what God is like, what Jesus is like and what the holy spirit is like.

This is quite humorous as what you have stated is that you are assured you have known god as have I.

In my assurance of god I can easily state that Christians and many other religious adherents are spiritually doomed to abandonment. Do you think this makes my own experiences maniacally influenced or false?

 

[Vouthon]

Saying god is a mystery is a cop-out (no offense).

None taken my friend I like the rough'n'tumble. I would have you be frank and honest with me rather than ply me with platitudes that do not accurately represent our differences which IMHO are significant in many ways.

If god is a mystery then one cannot be sure of this deity and the very fact Christianity preaches salvation is contradictory to the nature of your own god.

I never said that "God" is a mystery in terms of His existence and general attributes. That there is a transcendent, first cause behind this Universe is discoverable by simple human reason. The Catholic Faith teaches this as a dogma (de fide "with full assent of faith"). Here is a summary of Catholic doctrines and dogmas: A Summary of the Dogmas and Teachings of the Church

The first two on the list, well before the Trinity comes on the scene, are:

1) God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things. (De fide.)

2) The Existence of God can be proved by means of causality. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

From wiki:

De fide (of the faith) is a "theological note" or "theological qualification" that indicates that some religious doctrine is an essential part of Catholic faith and that denial of it is heresy.[1]

So you have just accused me of heresy

I said the Trinitarian nature of God is a mystery. Not God. The Trinity is a divinely revealed truth regarding God. It is not discoverable by human reason unaided by grace, and ultimately although it can be analysed on the basis of reason guided by faith, it can never be fully understood because other dogmas/doctrines hold:

5) Our knowledge of God here below is not proper (cognitio propia) but analogical (cognitio analoga or analogica.) (Sent. certa.)

6) God's Nature is incomprehensible to men. (De fide.)

As He is in Himself, in his Nature, God cannot possibly be grasped by finite human thought. That would be like attempting to make a tiny pitcher contain the entire Atlantic ocean. Impossible.

This god created basic reasoning skills them created a theology which underachieves this and falls into logical fallacy.

There is a vast field of Trinitarian theology. Ultimately though, it is based upon limited, human concepts that can never completely capture the reality they speak of. They can get close but can never grasp it.

 

[Dunemeister]

Saying god is a mystery is a cop-out (no offense). If god is a mystery then one cannot be sure of this deity and the very fact Christianity preaches salvation is contradictory to the nature of your own god. This god created basic reasoning skills them created a theology which underachieves this and falls into logical fallacy.
This is highly bizarre behavior for a loving god who wishes to redeem mankind with his mandates which are not even compatible to human reasoning.

Saying God is a mystery is not a cop-out. Rather, it is simply a fact that God's nature is beyond our comprehension. We are talking about the very source of all that is (other than itself). Just as the pot cannot comprehend the potter, nor can we comprehend our Creator. Thus theology (traditional theology, that is) does not "underachieve" logic, it transcends it. Thus what we have here is a necessary corollary of doing theology. You are dealing with a subject that transcends our capacities to understand. Thus all theology must be apophatic (by negation). We say God is _____, which is not to say _____. And the "which is not to says" tend to outnumber the "we says" by a wide margin.

That said, the Church has formulated some doctrines about God, in particular the Trinity. For a very good discussion of how that doctrine developed and culminated in the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed, see Jaroslav Pelikan's brilliant work, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine Vol 1: The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition, Chapter 4.

 

[sojourner]

Seeing people argue over the Trinity and the Bible amuses me to no end. It is like seeing a pack of kids argue over the Easter Bunny and whether or not he lays eggs.
The trinity is by far the most un-Judaic claim along with the existence of Jesus. The fact that it is still debated after so many millennia is only "testament" that it is not palatable with basic mathematical reasoning skills.

Christianity isn't "Judaic," particularly.
The fact that some attempt to hold the Trinity to "mathematical reasoning" is only testament that they don't understand the nature of theology, or appreciate its benefits.

 

[sojourner]

We can rest assured that we can know what God is like, what Jesus is like and what the holy spirit is like.

God is infinite, he is from everlasting to everlasting. God is the order of everything that exist.

Jesus is finite, he is the beginning and the end. That is to say he is the physical makeup of all that exist. Jesus does and did whatever God the father says.

The holy spirit is God and Jesus working together.

God is spirit, Jesus is the physical manifestation of the spirit. Jesus existed in the beginning when God created the heavens and the Earth. That is because Jesus IS the heavens and the Earth. God is the electrical order of everything that exist and he knows all that has happened and all that will happen. Just because he knows that though doesn't mean that it has already happened in the finite sense of the word.

I'm thankful that God has been graceful into trying to bring all to repentance but saying that the end draws near...

That's not quite right, since Jesus is fully human. The rest of nature is not fully human. Only human beings are fully human.

 

[sojourner]

Saying god is a mystery is a cop-out (no offense). If god is a mystery then one cannot be sure of this deity and the very fact Christianity preaches salvation is contradictory to the nature of your own god. This god created basic reasoning skills them created a theology which underachieves this and falls into logical fallacy.
This is highly bizarre behavior for a loving god who wishes to redeem mankind with his mandates which are not even compatible to human reasoning.

If we understood God -- that is, could name God -- then we'd have power over God. Which we do not. We do not stand outside God and therefore do not have an objective understanding of God. We only understand God to the extent that we understand ourselves.

God didn't create theology. Human beings created theology -- not as a way to define God, but as a way to describe God. Descriptions are not necessarily logical.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Saying God is a mystery is not a cop-out. Rather, it is simply a fact that God's nature is beyond our comprehension.

You misquoting my words as even I believe god is beyond our nature of understanding. Main reason I find the concept of "children of god" rather contrite. What we are discussing is the Divine Word of God and the clarity of its message. For the message of god to mysterious is essentially like writing a letter in code and giving it to your mother expecting she can read something she cannot even understand.
For god to give mankind a message so blatantly unclear and judge us by our comprehension or false acceptance of something utterly irrevocable in meaning is functions like a physical oxymoron.
We cannot be given something non-understandable and be expected to understand it or else it is not non-understandable and to say that it is mysterious in nature is equivalent to accepting its uninformed message only going in reverse.

 

[Vouthon]

If we understood God -- that is, could name God -- then we'd have power over God. Which we do not.

:bow:

As one of my favourite mystics said:

"...Above all knowledge and science,
we find within us a limitless ignorance when,
passing beyond every name given to God or creatures,
we expire and pass to an eternal Unnamable where we are lost..."

- Blessed Jan van Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381)