The Trinity

[kjw47]

I beleive JW's are messed up in the head for believing this when so much of what they say strays so far from the word of God.

I showed you a direct quote( teaching from Jesus) how is that straying on the JW teachers part to teach a teaching straight from Jesus--found in every translation in existence?

 

[Muffled]

I showed you a direct quote( teaching from Jesus) how is that straying on the JW teachers part to teach a teaching straight from Jesus--found in every translation in existence?

I was responding to post #1928. You quoted no scripture in it. I believe my general statement from my experience studying with JW's and witnessing to them answers your general statement.

It would be nice if a JW stopped at quoting a scripture but then I believe the tendency is to go on and misinterpret that scripture. However I truly believe JW's can be right sometimes.

 

[Muffled]

We have free will to think and say as we will. Human thought is never either pure or perfect.

I believe we have free will but can give that up to Jesus. The Spirit can force the mind into correct thinking but I beleive left to its own devices the will of the flesh will allow the mind to wander into dreadful places. Be of good cheer I have overcome the world.

 

[kjw47]

I was responding to post #1928. You quoted no scripture in it. I believe my general statement from my experience studying with JW's and witnessing to them answers your general statement.

It would be nice if a JW stopped at quoting a scripture but then I believe the tendency is to go on and misinterpret that scripture. However I truly believe JW's can be right sometimes.

Are they not Jesus' words I showed you in # 1928? When Jesus taught one must seek his---Who is his to you-- is it not his God and Father-John 20:17) if so the Father is YHWH(Jehovah) --- the words of Jesus-Matt 6:33

 

[Muffled]

Are they not Jesus' words I showed you in # 1928? When Jesus taught one must seek his---Who is his to you-- is it not his God and Father-John 20:17) if so the Father is YHWH(Jehovah) --- the words of Jesus-Matt 6:33

Now you are quoting scripture but what is your point. If it is that Jehovah is the Father of Jesus I agree. I also agree with this verse: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

 

[kjw47]

Now you are quoting scripture but what is your point. If it is that Jehovah is the Father of Jesus I agree. I also agree with this verse: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

Yes they are one in purpose--because it goes on to say we all would be one with them--not in being--but in purpose--living to do Gods will, just as Jesus did to be one with him as well--afterall Jesus also taught-- the Father is greater than i.

 

[Shermana]

Now you are quoting scripture but what is your point. If it is that Jehovah is the Father of Jesus I agree. I also agree with this verse: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one.

And I agree with the verse 17:21

"Let them be one AS WE ARE ONE".

 

[icebuddy]

And I agree with the verse 17:21

"Let them be one AS WE ARE ONE".

I got back from my summer vacation and had some free time and saw this post... What is Jesus saying here? Well we all know Jesus is One with the Father in many ways, but in which way are we to be one like they are? Some people will say Jesus is one with the Father is no different than us believers being one with them...

Be careful on what is being said because we are not The Image of the invisible God who expresses the Father by his very being, the root and offspring of David. (many more) We are to be one with God as Jesus's humanity is one with God. Yet we can never be the root of David, creator of all things as Jesus is with the Father. We can never be called Jehovah God as Jesus is... So be carefull in grouping everything together when reading John 17:21 because we can never be one in every way Jesus is one with the Father. We can be one in the way Jesus gave us as an example in his human state of being. We can never be One as they where in creation and this alone should prove you cannot group everything together here...

In Love,
tom

 

[Shermana]

I am very careful thank you, because the "being one" in question means to have the same purpose and mindset. Just as Jesus and the Father are one in purpose and mindset, without being the same being/person/entity. It's as if a Hockey team said "We are one".

 

[kjw47]

I got back from my summer vacation and had some free time and saw this post... What is Jesus saying here? Well we all know Jesus is One with the Father in many ways, but in which way are we to be one like they are? Some people will say Jesus is one with the Father is no different than us believers being one with them...

Be careful on what is being said because we are not The Image of the invisible God who expresses the Father by his very being, the root and offspring of David. (many more) We are to be one with God as Jesus's humanity is one with God. Yet we can never be the root of David, creator of all things as Jesus is with the Father. We can never be called Jehovah God as Jesus is... So be carefull in grouping everything together when reading John 17:21 because we can never be one in every way Jesus is one with the Father. We can be one in the way Jesus gave us as an example in his human state of being. We can never be One as they where in creation and this alone should prove you cannot group everything together here...

In Love,
tom

Jesus is never called Jehovah. the true followers are one in the same way Jesus stated --I and the Father are one.-- In union of the doing of Gods will, one in purpose. One knows this is true when they learn Jesus' truths, and apply Jesus' truths. Yes Jesus is so much more than any of us can ever be- but all can be one in purpose with Jehovah and Jesus. In fact they better be even now in this satan ruled world--Matt 7:21

 

[Shermana]

We can never be called Jehovah God as Jesus is...

By all means please indicate where Jesus is directly called "YHWH god". Are you referring to John 20:28 which I've shown over and over was an "Exclamation directed towards God"? Besides, he would not say "YHWH of me". Do be careful to recognize that not every single use of "Lord" in the NT is a substitute for the name.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Wow! The recent posts here seem like a slam-dunk for antitrinitarianism! What a contrast with the Christian Forum I posted on until recently! Is RF a hangout for those who got harassed out of CF?

Concerning the Trinity, there is little in the Bible that can even be STRETCHED to support it, much less convincing proof. On the other hand, I have never, as I can recall, seen "Jesus" listed alongside "God the Father" (simply "God" is used, in a way that does NOT include Jesus); and have never seen the term "God the Son" in scripture. As for the Holy Spirit, the word for it in Hebrew is feminine; but the Greek word for it is not. The term "spirit", when properly translated into English, designates a THING, not a person. Note the language in the following: Jesus is never equated with God:

Rev 20
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

Rev 19
See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This goes on and on, throughout the NT: "Jesus" and "God" are always two different entities, and the one is never described as part of the other. I just showed the Revelation listings, because that was the easiest. Other NT books have many more references. This is the PREPONDERANCE of evidence, SOLID evidence, that Jesus is not God. The few cases wherein there might be some cause for doubt can be, and probably have been, explained in these 198 pages of posts, explained.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

\Concerning the Trinity, there is little in the Bible that can even be STRETCHED to support it, much less convincing proof. On the other hand, I have never, as I can recall, seen "Jesus" listed alongside "God the Father" (simply "God" is used, in a way that does NOT include Jesus); and have never seen the term "God the Son" in scripture. As for the Holy Spirit, the word for it in Hebrew is feminine; but the Greek word for it is not. The term "spirit", when properly translated into English, designates a THING, not a person. Note the language in the following: Jesus is never equated with God:

Rev 20
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

Rev 19
See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 14
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 12
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1
[9] I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This goes on and on, throughout the NT: "Jesus" and "God" are always two different entities, and the one is never described as part of the other. I just showed the Revelation listings, because that was the easiest. Other NT books have many more references. This is the PREPONDERANCE of evidence, SOLID evidence, that Jesus is not God. The few cases wherein there might be some cause for doubt can be, and probably have been, explained in these 198 pages of posts, explained.

First off, you are misrepresenting the concept of the biblical Trinity. No informed Trinitarian believes that Jesus IS God in the sense of saying the Father and the Son are the same exact person. That particular viewpoint is called Modalism, but no informed Trinitarian holds this view, as scripture just doesn't support it but in fact contradicts it.

Trinitarians believe that the word "God" is just a title of divinity, which all three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) share. All three persons in the Trinity share the same nature, as all three are "God". Now yes, based on the roles that all three play within mankind, scripture does support the fact that there is a heirarchy between the three, with the Father #1...the Son #2, and the Holy Spirit #3. No problems there. But as far as the nature of all three, all three are equally God and there is scriptural evidence that supports such notion.

 

[icebuddy]

I am very careful thank you, because the "being one" in question means to have the same purpose and mindset. Just as Jesus and the Father are one in purpose and mindset, without being the same being/person/entity. It's as if a Hockey team said "We are one".

Yes, but you assume that Jesus and the Father are only "one" in this way. (which i believe to be in error) What i find people doing is taking 1 verse and saying "see, we are to be one team as the Father and Son" then go on to say that they are "ONLY" one together in this same fashion. However, if you read other verses you will see that not only are the Father and Son working as One in a united fashion, they are also working as one to Express God Almighty to us.

Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus is never called Jehovah.

Jer 23:5-6 calls Jesus Jehovah Our Righteousness

Zec 2:10 shows Jehovah sending Jehovah to us

Isa 44:6-8 shows the King and Redeemer are called Jehovah together and speak as one. While speaking the Redeemer also says there is no other Rock nor God besides Israels King and Redeemer(Jesus).

Heb 1:10-12 The Father quotes and OT passage of Jehovah and applies it directly to Jesus (Ps 102:25-27) "calling Jesus Jehovah"

Romans 10:12-15 points to Jesus as equal to the name Jehovah of the OT but fullfilled.

Yes Jesus is so much more than any of us can ever be- but all can be one in purpose with Jehovah and Jesus. In fact they better be even now in this satan ruled world--Matt 7:21

my whole point is that Jesus and the Father are one in Purpose, but they are also one in expressing Jehovah to us.

In Love,
tom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

First off, you are misrepresenting the concept of the biblical Trinity. No informed Trinitarian believes that Jesus IS God in the sense of saying the Father and the Son are the same exact person. That particular viewpoint is called Modalism, but no informed Trinitarian holds this view, as scripture just doesn't support it but in fact contradicts it.

Trinitarians believe that the word "God" is just a title of divinity, which all three (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) share. All three persons in the Trinity share the same nature, as all three are "God". Now yes, based on the roles that all three play within mankind, scripture does support the fact that there is a heirarchy between the three, with the Father #1...the Son #2, and the Holy Spirit #3. No problems there. But as far as the nature of all three, all three are equally God and there is scriptural evidence that supports such notion.

You didn't read my post. The Bible doesn't talk about Jesus as part of a "godhead" or "godgoo" or anything else you want to call it. "God" is shown as identically equal to "the Father", with no ifs, ands or buts about it.

NOT:

SRC: Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DEUS NON EST FILIUS
SPIRITUS SANCTUS NON EST PERSONA
​

 

[icebuddy]

By all means please indicate where Jesus is directly called "YHWH god". Are you referring to John 20:28 which I've shown over and over was an "Exclamation directed towards God"? Besides, he would not say "YHWH of me". Do be careful to recognize that not every single use of "Lord" in the NT is a substitute for the name.

Jer 23:5-6 - Jesus is called Jehovah
Is 44:6-8 - Israels Kigs and His Redeemer are called Jehovah, God, and the ony Rock
Heb 1:10-12 the Father applies passages of Jehovah directly to Jesus
Rev 22:12 Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega

What you are fighting here is that Jesus is Exactly expressing the Father by his very existance. To see Jesus is to see the Father for he is The Image of God for us to see. Thats Why when Thomas looked at Jesus he could say "The God of me and the Lord of me". What I warn people of is that to look to the Image of God and say "NOT GOD" is very dangerous.

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Wow! The recent posts here seem like a slam-dunk for antitrinitarianism! What a contrast with the Christian Forum I posted on until recently! Is RF a hangout for those who got harassed out of CF?

Concerning the Trinity, there is little in the Bible that can even be STRETCHED to support it, much less convincing proof. On the other hand, I have never, as I can recall, seen "Jesus" listed alongside "God the Father" (simply "God" is used, in a way that does NOT include Jesus); and have never seen the term "God the Son" in scripture. As for the Holy Spirit, the word for it in Hebrew is feminine; but the Greek word for it is not. The term "spirit", when properly translated into English, designates a THING, not a person. Note the language in the following: Jesus is never equated with God:

This goes on and on, throughout the NT: "Jesus" and "God" are always two different entities, and the one is never described as part of the other. I just showed the Revelation listings, because that was the easiest. Other NT books have many more references. This is the PREPONDERANCE of evidence, SOLID evidence, that Jesus is not God. The few cases wherein there might be some cause for doubt can be, and probably have been, explained in these 198 pages of posts, explained.

Do you look to the Image of God, the one who expresses God exactly and fully by his very being and say "NOT GOD"?

The OT prophets saw the "angel of Jehovah" and treated him exactly as if he was Jehovah himself and he even talked as if he was Jehovah himself. How much more deserving is Jesus to be looked upon as God, Jehovah, Rock, Savior, King, and everything his Father is...

In Love,
Tom

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Do you look to the Image of God, the one who expresses God exactly and fully by his very being and say "NOT GOD"?

The OT prophets saw the "angel of Jehovah" and treated him exactly as if he was Jehovah himself and he even talked as if he was Jehovah himself. How much more deserving is Jesus to be looked upon as God, Jehovah, Rock, Savior, King, and everything his Father is...

In Love,
Tom

Please quote scriptures, one at a time; and if you really want to do me a favor, check to see if they haven't already been thoroughly discussed here. Jesus is not God, simply because the scriptures, dozens and dozens of them, say he is not God. Just to humor you, I will continue my list of scriptures that contain both the word "Jesus" and "God", to see if ANY of them equate Jesus with God:

Rev 1
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
"Which he gave unto himself?" No. "Which God the Father gave unto him?" No. You seem to be trying to waste my time and wear me out. I'll simply show references, and not try to reason with you at every citation:
Rev. 1: 2, 4; Jude 1, 4, 21; 2 John 3; 1 John 5: 1, 5, 20; 1 John 4: 2, 3, 15; 2 Pet. 1: 1, 2; 1 Pet. 4: 11; 1 Pet. 3: 21; 1 Pet. 2: 5; 1 Pet. 1: 2, 3; Jas. 1: 1; Heb. 13: 20; Heb. 4: 14; Heb. 2: 9; Phlm. 1: 1, 3; Tit. 2: 13; Tit. 1: 1, 4; 2 Tim. 4: 1; 2 Tim 1: 1, 2; 1 Tim. 6: 13; 1 Tim. 5: 21; 1 Tim. 2: 5; 1 Tim. 1: 1, 2...

I'm just getting started. These all say clearly, "FILIUS NON EST DEUS". Do you think you can overturn the entire New Testament, with one or two scriptures? Go on, present your scriptures, and completely ignore those I've posted here. If I don't bother to deal with what you come up with, there seem to be plenty here who will. But if you will repeatedly not listen to what we have to say, why should we bother with what you say?

 

[kjw47]

Jer 23:5-6 calls Jesus Jehovah Our Righteousness

Zec 2:10 shows Jehovah sending Jehovah to us

Isa 44:6-8 shows the King and Redeemer are called Jehovah together and speak as one. While speaking the Redeemer also says there is no other Rock nor God besides Israels King and Redeemer(Jesus).

Heb 1:10-12 The Father quotes and OT passage of Jehovah and applies it directly to Jesus (Ps 102:25-27) "calling Jesus Jehovah"

Romans 10:12-15 points to Jesus as equal to the name Jehovah of the OT but fullfilled.



my whole point is that Jesus and the Father are one in Purpose, but they are also one in expressing Jehovah to us.

In Love,
tom

Yes they are one in purpose and yes both express Jehovah to us. But they are not one in being God. Jehovah spoke from heaven at Jesus' baptism--This is my son the beloved whom I have approved, listen to him.