The True Church

[logician]

"The Church has always assumed the existence of Jesus"

Again with the unsupported assertions.

 

[DeepShadow]

So...you're just going to hide behind a tu quoque fallacy? At least their assertion is labeled as an assumption. Yours is not. Saying, "You do it, too" does not change the fact that you have made an unsupported assertion.

 

[logician]

Assertion, assumption, hunch, feeling, it still doesn't make it any more viable.

 

[DeepShadow]

Assertion, assumption, hunch, feeling, it still doesn't make it any more viable.

...hence they used a qualifier. You did not. Your unsupported assertion is still unsupported. Pointed out that someone else makes unsupported assertions does not lend support to yours. That's called a tu quoque fallacy, and it's getting tiresome.

 

[logician]

...hence they used a qualifier. You did not. Your unsupported assertion is still unsupported. Pointed out that someone else makes unsupported assertions does not lend support to yours. That's called a tu quoque fallacy, and it's getting tiresome.

Sorry, but my assertionn certainly is not unsupported, except maybe in your limited experience.

 

[DeepShadow]

"Unsupported" refers to support on this thread, not supporting experience. You have made an unsupported assertion--are you not going to even try to back it up with some kind of logic or evidence?

 

[Storm]

"Unsupported" refers to support on this thread, not supporting experience. You have made an unsupported assertion--are you not going to even try to back it up with some kind of logic or evidence?

Why would he start now?

 

[DeepShadow]

...I'm expecting him to start someday, because his name is "logician" and his signature suggests he values intelligence.

C'mon, logician, be fair. It's about time to start owning up to your own faith-based beliefs.

 

[logician]

"Unsupported" refers to support on this thread, not supporting experience. You have made an unsupported assertion--are you not going to even try to back it up with some kind of logic or evidence?

I've backed it up many times, you're lame denials and red herrings notwithtstanding, I'm not going to repeat myself.

 

[DeepShadow]

I've backed it up many times, you're lame denials and red herrings notwithtstanding, I'm not going to repeat myself.

Not on this thread, you haven't. Anyone find a post where logician backs up his assertion?

 

[sojourner]

"The Church has always assumed the existence of Jesus"

Again with the unsupported assertions.

Not on this thread, you haven't. Anyone find a post where logician backs up his assertion?

**incessant sound of crickets still chirping**

I'm still waiting for him to prove it...

Show me a Christian church who doesn't believe Jesus existed.

**taps foot**

I didn't think so.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why would he start now?

Ain't it the truth?

As usual, the Logician has succeeded in hijacking the thread.

The OP asked for marks of the "One True Church". I suggest that we get back to that.

I find this question an unholy one, as it is not supported by scriptures. Do a word search for "one church" or even "true church" and you will come away disappointed. In fact, we have been given the marks of a believer or disciple, but not really of a church.

What would prompt us to ask such a question? Our predilection to exclude others.

 

[logician]

I will agree on one thing, the war in Iraq is insane, and we need to get out soldiers out of IRaq, and BUsh out of the WH.

 

[Storm]

:biglaugh:

 

[gnostic]

It is strange to talk of "true church", considering that Jesus had no such "church".

There were no church, but since everyone follow Jesus during his ministry then the only "true church" was Jesus himself.

The only times "church" were mentioned by Jesus in the gospel is in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17. All other references come from Acts and letters.

The former is more famous, because Jesus talk about building the church on Peter's "rock" after Peter's declaration that Jesus is the "Messiah" and the "son of God". See Matthews 16:13-20.

My biggest problem with Matthew is this.

We know that the gospel of Mark is earlier than either Matthew's and Luke's. (Mark 8:27-30 and Luke 9:16-21).

Neither gospels of Mark and Luke, make any reference to Peter being the "rock", and neither of them mention "church".

With Luke, it ended with Peter declaring Jesus is "God's messiah". With Mark, Jesus replied to Peter's declaration, was to tell no one what he said.

What about you?" he asked them. "Who do you think I am?
Peter answered, "You are the Messiah."
Then Jesus ordered them, "Do not tell anyone about me."

There were mention no rock and no church, so there are two important questions in regarding to the discrepancies:

Did Mark and Luke leave this part out?

Or did Matthew embellish it by adding "rock" and "church", putting these words in Jesus' mouth?

My gut feeling tell me that the 2nd question is true, and Matthew invented or embellish the part about the rock and church. It is possible that the word "church" wasn't even coined until after his death.

 

[sojourner]

It is strange to talk of "true church", considering that Jesus had no such "church".

There were no church, but since everyone follow Jesus during his ministry then the only "true church" was Jesus himself.

The only times "church" were mentioned by Jesus in the gospel is in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17. All other references come from Acts and letters.

The former is more famous, because Jesus talk about building the church on Peter's "rock" after Peter's declaration that Jesus is the "Messiah" and the "son of God". See Matthews 16:13-20.

My biggest problem with Matthew is this.

We know that the gospel of Mark is earlier than either Matthew's and Luke's. (Mark 8:27-30 and Luke 9:16-21).

Neither gospels of Mark and Luke, make any reference to Peter being the "rock", and neither of them mention "church".

With Luke, it ended with Peter declaring Jesus is "God's messiah". With Mark, Jesus replied to Peter's declaration, was to tell no one what he said.


There were mention no rock and no church, so there are two important questions in regarding to the discrepancies:

Did Mark and Luke leave this part out?

Or did Matthew embellish it by adding "rock" and "church", putting these words in Jesus' mouth?

My gut feeling tell me that the 2nd question is true, and Matthew invented or embellish the part about the rock and church. It is possible that the word "church" wasn't even coined until after his death.

I respectfully disagree. The true Church is the True Body of Christ -- which is what Jesus' followers comprise.
Differing P'sOV onn the part of the gospelers, who were writing from different traditions, to different audiences, does not prove inconsistency. It only proves differing perspective.

 

[gnostic]

Differing P'sOV onn the part of the gospelers, who were writing from different traditions, to different audiences, does not prove inconsistency. It only proves differing perspective.

I think the omission by Mark and Luke is quite compelling. It more than just inconsistency.

Look at Mark (and John), he left out details about the conception and the birth of Jesus.

Only Matthew speak of the killing of the innocents (1:16-19), not to mention that are no evidence that Herod had given any such order) and the presence of the 3 magi.

And Luke included the conception of John (all of chapter 1), and the events of the shepherds and "armies of angels" (2:8-20). Luke also make no mention of the family fleeing to Egypt; in fact, Herod is not mentioned, but what is mention that Jesus was circumcised, exactly one week later.

The only thing that Matthew and Luke agreed upon is that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to Joseph and Mary, and that Mary conceived Jesus through the holy spirit. Nothing else matches.

Where did either Matthew and Luke get all these anyway?

Only the apostle John was ever seen in the presence of Mary (Jesus' mother), but he included nothing about pre-ministry life of Jesus. And I am assuming that Joseph to be dead before Jesus began his ministry.

In no place in the gospels do Jesus speak of his birth or childhood to any of the apostle. Did Jesus told them all about these events before his death? I don't think so.

What Matthew and Luke added to their gospels to be very interesting, but I found their earlier chapters to be somewhat contrived and inventive, but hardly any realistic scholarship.

 

[Arrow]

Back on track...

refer to the numbers below the paragraph for a shorter version of this

Firstly, this is just a theory, but please ponder it. Secondly, by trying to define the "true church" with scripture we really just get into doctrine which then in turn leads to denominations which is what I think we are striving to get rid of. What is also interesting is that Jesus really does not mention doctrine... He does call us to imitate Him. So I guess what I am thinking is that the "true doctrine" is doing what Jesus did. Jesus got baptized, circumsized, ate communion, and essentially did the will of God for His life. I would say that once someone has mastered immitating Jesus then maybe that person would be ready for moving past that point to drawing up more specific guidelines or doctrine.

Short version

1) By using specific references for the "true church" we really just end up creating a new denomination.
2) Thus Scripture must be viewed more broadly.
3) Jesus lived to serve God and serve others. He set a perfect example.
4) Because He set a perfect example we should simply follow that example.
5) After mastering this, then we can move on to the next step.
6) Trying to get everything at once only ends in more splitting and more arguing
7) Those who follow Christ are brothers and sisters, not cousins!!!!

criticize away

 

[Luke_17:2]

The Christian Chuch, better referred to as the Body of Christ, must believe these things:

That Jesus came in the flesh to take away the sins of the world, and to save each sinner individually
That He died, was risen the third day by God, and was taken bodily into heaven
That you must confess this and ask forgiveness to be saved
That you're being saved from hell (aka eternal damnation)
That He'll come again to receive the believers
That the Scriptures are the Word of God.

 

[Sunstone]

Deep, deep down in your hearts, you know the True Church is the Church of Trampolines, for Her Great Bounciness has inscribed this truth on the hearts of all men who've witnessed Girls On Trampolines!