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The True Church

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
The idea that one is "saved" by merely having one politically-correct belief is so bizarre,
No one in the Bible ever expressed baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins as either mere or as a politically correct belief. YOU are trying to label it as such as a strategy to try to dismiss it.

plus even James, Paul and Jesus refute that ('like cymbals clashing"; "faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love; Parable of the Sheep & Goats and the Sermon On the Mount)".
What did they refute as cymbals clashing?
As far as I've read he was referring to acts of service bereft of love. Baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins doesn't fit that description.

The danger of such a belief is that it can lead a person to believe (s)he is "saved" and, therefore, do pretty much whatever they want. Unfortunately, we've all seen people who do indeed act and talk just like that.
That can happen and has happened to every belief system. Baptism is not the cause of this. Is the Bible just supposed to mean whatever you say it means?
 
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atpollard

Active Member
Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 16:31 and they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
You and I have discussed this at length.
Intojoy makes an interesting argument that the earliest part of Church history was directed primarily at Jewish believers.

Do you have any support from the Epistles (which were clearly written to primarily non-Jewish converts)?
I was just curious.

Off to do a on-line bible word search ... ;)
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
You and I have discussed this at length.
Intojoy makes an interesting argument that the earliest part of Church history was directed primarily at Jewish believers.

Do you have any support from the Epistles (which were clearly written to primarily non-Jewish converts)?
I was just curious.

Off to do a on-line bible word search ... ;)
Yes, at the beginning it was focused on the Jews, but from the beginning salvation was also intended for all.
Acts 2:36, 38-39 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” [38] Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. [39] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off---for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

It was intended for all, although Peter needed a little help to allow the gentiles to also be baptized in Jesus's name Acts 10:47-48.

God speed with your word search
 
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Intojoy

Member
There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.

One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation. Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.

This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.

First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.

If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in. We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work. The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.
1. Not one of those verses say faith is the only condition do they? You are "inferring" that since "those" verses only list faith, that faith is the only factor, aren't you? It's an "inferred" belief. The Bible NEVER says faith is the only factor on our part in getting saved, it's an "inferred" belief.

2. The ratio argument, the one that says faith is mentioned more than baptism, so baptism must not be involved, doesn't hold up. The Bible only has to say it once explicitly for something to be true, but it needs to say it explicitly at least once for it to be true. Jesus said each of these once

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 13:2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”


and they're every bit as true as something He said a dozen times.

Frequency is not standard of truth. Something stated explicitly at least once in the Bible is a standard of truth. Both faith and baptism are each stated explicitly at least once as getting saved. The notion that faith being the ONLY factor on man's part to get saved is not stated explicitly EVER, so it's not true. It's only an inference based on preference, nothing more.

One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation.
All true. In fact one should not only be cognizant that he/she is a sinner, but they should also reflect on the sins they personally committed that put Jesus on the cross, like Paul did.

Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.
Here's where word play comes in. I see trusting in Jesus/Yeshua as believing in who he is and whatever he teaches, even when it goes against our grain. You "seem" to define trusting in Jesus/Yeshua (correct me if I'm wrong) as acknowledging that God sent Him to die on the cross for our salvation and by believing that God did this, it is the exclusive method (our part) in getting saved. All that is encompassed in the phrase "trusting Jesus/Yeshua." The phrase trusting in Jesus's for one's salvation is often used with your definition, and assumes it's an established definition that everyone should already be on board with. That phrase does not exist in the Bible, it's just modern word play.

This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.
This is "A" condition for salvation, but ad nauseum, there's nothing in the Bible itself making this exclusive. It's only commentators of the Bible who call this exclusive. You're not giving me Biblical support for your position, you're giving me church culture.

First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.
Good.

If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in.
Agreed. Ultimately, God/Jesus saves, not our faith in God/Jesus.

We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work.
Not only. The faith that involves salvation is believing in Jesus himself, who He is, who sent him, what he taught, etc. - John 3:16, not ONLY in his finished work.

The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
That God's work alone is sufficient payment is not questioned. That's not the issue. The issue is about accessing that payment. No one in the Bible ever said "trust in... ALONE" (mental assertion)... is all that's involved in getting saved. That's just word play. Why didn't anybody in the Bible ever say this explicitly, and have to rely on outsiders to say it for them? That's because it's only the outsiders' idea. They come up with all sorts of convoluted roundabout explanations that distracts from the fact the Bible just doesn't say faith is the only response involved in getting saved; That it is an inferred belief.

Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.
Agreed.
 
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e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Marks of the True Church

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is God. John 1:1

2. Has no Head of the church but Jesus. Ephesians 5:23

3. Teaches truth not Denominationalism. Mark 7:7-8

4. Teaches that The Bible is the True Word of God, and is without error. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

5. Teaches that Authority comes from the word of God not leaders in the Church. 1 Thessalonians 4:2, Acts 2:42

6. Teaches Believers Baptism. Mark 16:16

7. Teaches that Repentance and Baptism is for the Forgiveness of Sins and the way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-4

8. Teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Acts 4:12

9. Teaches that Sinners will go to Hell. Revelation 21:8, 20:11-15

10. Takes care of the Poor. James 1:27

11. And does the Great Commission. Matthew 28:18-20
Agreed. Add John 13:34-35.

But dude, drop the name dictator.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Church of Christ is Replacement Theology! True Church, I think not!
You folk think the God of the Old Covenant made a mistake in choosing the Children of Israel as a chosen people! Gave up on them nailed the Torah to the cross and gave all the promises to the Church of Christ. Not even close!
... you only accept the New Testament;
We don't believe in any of this.
 

Intojoy

Member
1. Not one of those verses say faith is the only condition do they? You are "inferring" that since since "those" verses only list faith that faith is the only factor, aren't you? It's an "inferred" belief. The Bible NEVER says faith is the only factor on our part in getting saved, it's an "inferred" belief.

2. The ratio argument, the one that says faith is mentioned more than baptism, so baptism must not be involved, doesn't hold up. The Bible only has to say it once explicitly for something to be true, but it needs to say it explicitly at least once for it to be true. Jesus said each of these once

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Mark 13:2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”


and they're every bit as true as something He said a dozen times.

Frequency is not standard of truth. Something stated explicitly at least once in the Bible is a standard of truth. Both faith and baptism are each stated explicitly at least once as getting saved. The notion that faith being the ONLY factor on man's part to get saved is not stated explicitly EVER, so it's not true. It's only an inference based on preference, nothing more.

All true. In fact one should not only be cognizant that he/she is a sinner, but they should also reflect on the sins they personally committed that put Jesus on the cross, like Paul did.

Here's where word play comes in. I see trusting in Jesus/Yeshua as believing in who he is and whatever he teaches, even when it goes against our grain. You "seem" to define trusting in Jesus/Yeshua (correct me if I'm wrong) as acknowledging that God sent Him to die on the cross for our salvation and by believing that God did this, it is the exclusive method (our part) in getting saved. All that is encompassed in the phrase "trusting Jesus/Yeshua." The phrase trusting in Jesus's for one's salvation is often used with your definition, and assumes it's an established definition that everyone should already be on board with. That phrase does not exist in the Bible, it's just modern word play.

This is "A" condition for salvation, but ad nauseum, there's nothing in the Bible itself making this exclusive. It's only commentators of the Bible who call this exclusive. You're not giving me Biblical support for your position, you're giving me church culture.

Good.

Agreed. Ultimately, God/Jesus saves, not our faith in God/Jesus.

Not only. The faith that involves salvation is believing in Jesus himself, who He is, who sent him, what he taught, etc. - John 3:16, not ONLY in his finished work.

That God's work alone is sufficient payment is not questioned. That's not the issue. The issue is about accessing that payment. No one in the Bible ever said "trust in... ALONE" (mental assertion)... is all that's involved in getting saved. That's just word play. Why didn't anybody in the Bible ever say this explicitly, and have to rely on outsiders to say it for them? That's because it's only the outsiders' idea. They come up with all sorts of convoluted roundabout explanations that distracts from the fact the Bible just doesn't say faith is the only response involved in getting saved; That it's an inferred belief.

Agreed.
21b0d7e085a1aaa0c997f6f03aa28ffd.jpg
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No one in the Bible ever expressed baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins as either mere or as a politically correct belief. YOU are trying to label it as such as a strategy to try to dismiss it.

What did they refute as cymbals clashing?
As far as I've read he was referring to acts of service bereft of love. Baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins doesn't fit that description.

That can happen and has happened to every belief system. Baptism is not the cause of this. Is the Bible just supposed to mean whatever you say it means?
You're reading more in to what I posted than what I actually posted, and my point was not really about baptism as much as it was in reference to the concept that mere belief in whatever supposedly "saves" one, which to me make so little sense and is even contradicted in some of the epistles plus what Jesus supposedly said. I'm not the one ignoring what the "N.T." actually says, but it appears that at least one person here does. Here's what you wrote: "People are saved by God/Jesus, at belief and baptism."
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
You guys have successfully turned baptism into circumcision. Like the Jews of the NT, you're looking outwardly, and not at the heart.

Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. NIV

Of course, Galatians deals with this legalism on a much broader scale. My favorite verse states that "The only thing that counts, is faith expressing itself through love." You can add to this all you want, but I'm content in loving others. Matthew 25 is worth a read here. Too many claim to be saved and yet demonstrate no love, no compassion. I'll stick with love, my friend. I'll stick with love with teeth in it.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What did they refute as cymbals clashing?

The issue of belief by itself:
1Cor.13
[1] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
[2] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
[3] If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
[4] Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
[5] it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
[6] it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
[7] Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[8] Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Love ("agape" in Koine Greek), is considered an active noun, namely that one doesn't just have "love", one lives out love. Therefore, mere belief and $5 can get one a coffee at Starbucks, so [active] love besides belief becomes essential. So, it's more the question as to whether one may believe about Jesus or whether one actually believes in Jesus, which is really what the main point appears to be in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats teaches (Matt. 25). Same with the Parable of the Mustard Seed).
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
As a caveat, I was a church of Christer for a long time, until the church I was attending came out in support of the Iraq war. I was never much of an exclusionist. In that regard, I think this scripture is kind of cool:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three father in my name, there am I with them. NIV

If you're a true literalist, then you might extrapolate that any gathering larger than three would be without Jesus in their midst. I've seen sillier declarations made in the spirit of legalism.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
You're reading more in to what I posted than what I actually posted, and my point was not really about baptism as much as it was in reference to the concept that mere belief in whatever supposedly "saves" one, which to me make so little sense and is even contradicted in some of the epistles plus what Jesus supposedly said. I'm not the one ignoring what the "N.T." actually says, but it appears that at least one person here does. Here's what you wrote: "People are saved by God/Jesus, at belief and baptism."
Sorry for reading more into it than what you wrote. I agree that mere belief doesn't save us.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
The issue of belief by itself:
1Cor.13
[1] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
[2] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
[3] If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
[4] Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;
[5] it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
[6] it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
[7] Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[8] Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Love ("agape" in Koine Greek), is considered an active noun, namely that one doesn't just have "love", one lives out love. Therefore, mere belief and $5 can get one a coffee at Starbucks, so [active] love besides belief becomes essential. So, it's more the question as to whether one may believe about Jesus or whether one actually believes in Jesus, which is really what the main point appears to be in the Parable of the Sheep & Goats teaches (Matt. 25). Same with the Parable of the Mustard Seed).
Thank you.
 

Intojoy

Member
As a caveat, I was a church of Christer for a long time, until the church I was attending came out in support of the Iraq war. I was never much of an exclusionist. In that regard, I think this scripture is kind of cool:

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three father in my name, there am I with them. NIV

If you're a true literalist, then you might extrapolate that any gathering larger than three would be without Jesus in their midst. I've seen sillier declarations made in the spirit of legalism.
What's the context of that verse?
 
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