The U.S.A. And the case for ending the Union

[74x12]

You've been made into an extremist. You no longer see "live and let live" as a viable policy. You've been moved into the "us or them" camp. That was by design.

 

[Vouthon]

You've been made into an extremist. You no longer see "live and let live" as a viable policy. You've been moved into the "us or them" camp. That was by design.

I do not believe anyone participating in this thread qualifies as an "extremist".

 

[Sunstone]

@Vouthon, it seems reasonable that there should be several causes of the current morass in America. I myself blame everything from the resurgence of Southern culture post WWII, to long-term Soviet and Russian meddling, to some of America's billionaires, to postmodernism and beyond. Kind of a perfect storm.

 

[MNoBody]

what "union"?
that was dissolved in 1933
been in 'receivership' ever since, apparently.

 

[Vouthon]

@Vouthon, it seems reasonable that there should be several causes of the current morass in America. I myself blame everything from the resurgence of Southern culture post WWII, to long-term Soviet and Russian meddling, to some of America's billionaires, to postmodernism and beyond. Kind of a perfect storm.

My country is not far off and is liable to disintegrate long before your own, to be fair.

It saddens me, though. Whenever I see something pop up on the TV or online concerning American politics, I now feel this morbid sense of interest and trepidation.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

Maybe I've been inside too many days in a row, but I'm starting to feel a little restless. Does the separation have to be peaceful?

 

[74x12]

It saddens me, though. Whenever I see something pop up on the TV or online concerning American politics, I now feel this morbid sense of interest and trepidation.

That's one reason I don't listen to them. What country are you in?

 

[Laika]

Maybe I've been inside too many days in a row, but I'm starting to feel a little restless. Does the separation have to be peaceful?

No. But I wouldn't inflict a civil war on anyone. Particularly if your country has a large stockpile of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. That's just asking for trouble.

As a European, I've found myself feeling more and more disengaged culturally from America over the last decade, ever since the twilight years of Obama (when the old flame lingered), to the extent that I now seriously question - to my never failing surprise - whether we share a common 'Western' civilisation at all anymore (in the 19th - 20th century, interwar fascism aside, we most definitely did constitute a single transatlantic civilisational space).

There is definitely something of the road to unreality in the contemporary American public sphere, the trading of truth and objective analysis for a 'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism. What began as a minor cultural peculiarity has now mutated - especially in the Trump years - into a mass national phenomenon. Its almost as if the 'action movies' and entertainment industry (bred, I must note, by mass consumerism) have infected every dimension of political life.

It saddens me, though. Whenever I see something pop up on the TV or online concerning American politics, I now feel this morbid sense of interest and trepidation.

I feel many of these things as well. I'm just afraid of how far in to the abyss America is going to go and will drag the rest of the world with us. There doesn't seem to be a limit to what things the American government will do and what the American people will accept or put up with.

It's horrible to watch old friends descend in to madness but I think that's what it's like to look at America now. We remember who they were and who they were supposed to be, but no matter how much you care about them, you can't seem to break the spell the delusions have over them. If it wasn't so frightening, it would be unbearably tragic.

 

[Milton Platt]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

I think the current republic (U.S.) is not perfect, as nothing humanly devised ever is. But it is the best we have. Don't demolish it...tweek it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The peaceful alternative that I see, is one of actual social evolution as opposed to revolution.

You're expecting Trump's base (support still above 40% despite utter incompetence bordering on criminal negligence) to evolve?

I chose "secession," but could only do it on the scale of a family. We left America ten years ago in expectation of ongoing deteriorization because we couldn't abandon only conservative America, but didn't want our wagon hitched to their star. We had too little in common with them and didn't trust their judgment. Look at who they voted for in 2016. And they'll vote for him again. Given how many of them there are and their ability to determine the outcomes of elections, do you really want such people having influence over your life? It's like being in business with a demented or criminally insane brother with full check-signing, contract-signing, and hiring / firing power.

So I recommend doing whatever is quickest to disentrain from those people, whether that's secession or expatriation. How could one possibly want to share a country with them?

It's the anti-intellectuals vs. the rest. People who take pride in supporting Big Oil and denying the science of the problem. Even if that means they'll be hurt in the process.

And they will (be hurt). I hear that the American South is expecting about 100 tornadoes today. It would be so unjust for it to be New England or the West Coast instead.

Then there's the matter of the Southern Republican governors and the abysmal lack of leadership there. Southerners vote for them, and will pay the price.

the notion of partisanship is exaggerated by the MSM, and doesn't reflect the actual atmosphere in America.

Disagree. How could Americans be any more partisan? I couldn't be. That's why I support secession, and why I wrote what I did above.

If there was some kind of break-up of America, another possibility might be along the typical "Red State"/"Blue State" dichotomy, or possibly regional, with the "Coastals" forming one nation and "Middle America"/"Flyover Country" would be another nation.

You might find this amusing. It's from about 2004 just after the Bush-Kerry election

Spoiler: Dear Red States

​

FROM THE BLUE STATES TO THE RED

Dear Red States...

We've decided we're leaving. We intend to form our own country, Nouveau California.

We're taking the other Blue States with us. In case you aren't aware, that includes the Pacific states except Alaska (California, Oregon, Washington and Hawaii), the Great Lakes states except Indiana (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan and yes, we’re taking Ohio back), New England (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island), the Mid-Atlantic states (New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania), and Maryland and Delaware.

We believe this split will be beneficial to both nations. For example, the residents of Nuevo California will be leaving Iraq at once. You’re “real Americans” in uniform from the Heartlands won’t have to fight beside elitists and intellectuals. If you need more people to fight, ask your evangelicals. They have plenty of spare kids (they practice abstinence only and have no Planned Parenthood clinics). Oh, and good luck with those WMD’s.

With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80 percent of the country's fresh water, more than 90 percent of the pineapple and lettuce, 92 percent of the nation's fresh fruit, 95 percent of America's quality wines (you can serve French wines at state dinners) 90 percent of all cheese, 90 percent of the high tech industry, most of the U.S. low-sulfur coal, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools, plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech, and MIT.

With the Red States, on the other hand, you will have to cope with 88 percent of all obese Americans (and their projected health care costs), 92 percent of all U.S. mosquitoes, nearly 100 percent of the tornadoes, 90 percent of the hurricanes, 99 percent of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100 percent of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh.

Since your Christian Coalition’s aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent higher than ours, you get a bunch of deadbeat dads, single moms and latch key kids. You can hire our big city lawyers, however.

Additionally, 38 percent of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62 percent believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 53 percent believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11.

We’ll take Old Glory since you already have enough Stars and Bars to go around. Will you be calling your country the Cunfederucy or Jeebusland? By the way, we're taking the good pot, too. You’ll still have your meth labs.

We get the coasts
You get the fly over states

We get California and the nude beaches
You get Texas, Oklahoma and the rest of cowboy America

We get Manhattan and Chesapeake Bay
You get the Dukes of Hazards states like Alabama and Mississipi

We get Hollywood, Yosemite and the best beaches
You get Iowa, incest and swamps.

We get the resorts and golf courses
You get Graceland and Nascar.

We get the Statue of Liberty and the Golden Gate Bridge.
You get Dollywood, the Appalachians and the Ozarks.

We get Stanford, Columbia, Princeton and Harvard.
You get Ole' Miss, Bob Jones University, Clemson, the University of Georgia and Columbine High School.

We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and two-thirds of the tax revenue
You get the churches and people that that don’t believe in paying taxes.

We get entrepreneurs, Intel and Microsoft.
You get WorldCom and Enron.

Peace out,
Blue States

​

 

[MNoBody]

You can't be run through a divorce [separation]
if you weren't really legally married.

 

[Cooky]

Disagree. How could Americans be any more partisan? I couldn't be. That's why I support secession, and why I wrote what I did above.

...Thing is, I don't typically see any of that in real-life interactions with people. Only in media, or social media.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'll try to make a case for sticking together.. I really think coming apart could probably only mean civil war, or at least an internal resource war at some point down the line. The peaceful alternative that I see, is one of actual social evolution as opposed to revolution. And for that to happen, perhaps groups need to realize that they don't have all the answers, that there is room for a sort of teleological growth from various points. That we can't really make society into a sort of 'agreement contest,' as that basically may lead to a sort of social incest. And so progress happens as a byproduct of allowing freedom in teleological opinion, even if that sometimes entails debate and great differences in approach

I'm not sure if that's possible. For some groups in America, such as LGBT, the differences in parties is the difference between having our rights granted or denied. One party acknowledges global warming and cov-2 as problems, the other sees them as economy killers, even as a hoax. Some things cant be compromised on, making many issues irreconcilable, as some of these are life-and-death issues (such as Republican abortion restrictions that at times go too far and putthe mother's life at risk). It's so bad that as governor of Indiana Mike Pence still fought to keep same sex marriage out of the state evwn after the Supreme Court intervened, struck down Indiana's law as unconstitutional, and legalized it at the federal level. That is how unwilling some are, amd the great chasm of consequences that exist between one party or the other

 

[Cooky]

I'm not sure if that's possible. For some groups in America, such as LGBT, the differences in parties is the difference between having our rights granted or denied. One party acknowledges global warming and cov-2 as problems, the other sees them as economy killers, even as a hoax. Some things cant be compromised on, making many issues irreconcilable, as some of these are life-and-death issues (such as Republican abortion restrictions that at times go too far and putthe mother's life at risk). It's so bad that as governor of Indiana Mike Pence still fought to keep same sex marriage out of the state evwn after the Supreme Court intervened, struck down Indiana's law as unconstitutional, and legalized it at the federal level. That is how unwilling some are, amd the great chasm of consequences that exist between one party or the other

Bill Mahr wants the economy reopened, and Milo Yiannopolis is a "far-right" homosexual... My only point is that the bisecting of the country works in creating political talking points, but isn't absolute in reality.

...People tend to fall scattered out, throughout the entire political spectrum.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Bill Mahr wants the economy reopened. My only point, is that the bisecting of the country works in creating political talking points, but isn't absolute in reality.

...People tend to fall scattered out, all throughout the political spectrum.

Is that why the current vice president wiped his *** with my rights? Sure, its not all Libs and Cons and Dems and Reps, and people do love to complain about the Dems and Reps. But they keep electing them.

 

[Cooky]

Is that why the current vice president wiped his *** with my rights? Sure, its not all Libs and Cons and Dems and Reps, and people do love to complain about the Dems and Reps. But they keep electing them.

I think it's people's infatuation with statistics -convincing them the only two viable options are either D or R... They might be right to think that, IDK.

...Maybe if everyone quit saying that it wouldn't be so.

Another one is "the lesser of two evils" motto.

These rules of thumb tend to be overestimated, IMO. But some people swear by them.

 

[MNoBody]

rule of thumb came about as an expression as it was not lawful to beat thy wife with a cane more than the diameter of one's thumb
terrible expression
we need to rethink these 'rules of thumb'
they seem to be rules that hold things up or cause problems for someone for the most part
[ just a side comment from the balcony]

 

[Secret Chief]

At least the US has the geographically simple option, if done by States? No such cut and dried option exists for another country which now feels like one land, two peoples. The United Kingdom is as united as the United States appears to be (not).

 

[Shad]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

You are framing this according to your bias by tying this issue only to greed (the tired out claim of communism). There are people that are consuming their savings thus future. They do not want to go into poverty. They do not want to see their business collapse because the government wont allow them to operate nor provide relief.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Well that is basic politics in a two party system. If everyone agreed there would be no need for any political parties. The US has two political parties that divide the issues between them. If the GOP takes one position the Dems take the opposite. With only two parties which exchange which one happens to the majority every few years there is no reason to compromise. A party can wait to gain a majority to enact it's goals, repeal the other party's laws then repeat the cycle as the majority changes.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

Again this is your bias at play. You are assuming malice intent due to your ideology which is your mind trap. You can not consider other reasons nor do I think you actually talk to anyone outside your bubble in a serious manner.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

Again this is your bias at play.

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

Which it is boosted by your ideology.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

This will not resolve the issue. All it will do is localize it more.

 

[Cooky]

That is the crux for me.

A scholar of Putinist Russia, Peter Pomerantsev, has described that country as being a place where: "Nothing is True and Everything is Possible".

There is definitely something of the road to unreality in the contemporary American public sphere, the trading of truth and objective analysis for a 'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism. What began as a minor cultural peculiarity has now mutated I feel - especially in the Trump years - into a mass national phenomenon. Its almost as if the 'action movies' and entertainment industry (bred, I must note, by mass consumerism) have infected every dimension of political life.

In Britain, there is considerable fragmentation - Remain or Brexit, Tories and Labour, Scottish Nationalism versus Unionism - yet we have some core public 'goods' that surpass factional divisions, as signified by the outpouring of goodwill from all sectors of British society towards our frontline health workers in the NHS - the "clap for your NHS" campaign:

NHS staff thank public in TV broadcast after UK erupts in applause for workers fighting coronavirus

The NHS is the closest thing the UK has to a shared civic religion. But at least we have that in common and beyond contestation.

On the contrary, I have never come across a culture quite like the one that is coming to fruition in - what had been a vibrant, thriving (if flawed, like all societies) liberal democracy - the United States, with its formerly relatively sane bipartisan system morphing into this almost complete horror story and mockery of the democratic exercise itself. The exception is Putin's Russia but as I think we can all agree that's not the kind of company you want to keep.

This: "'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism" is highly overestimated IMO.

Every generation having different quirks, others being more and less dramatic. This is just another passing phase.