The U.S.A. And the case for ending the Union

[Shadow Wolf]

I think it's people's infatuation with statistics -convincing them the only two viable options are either D or R... They might be right to think that, IDK.

...Maybe if everyone quit saying that it wouldn't be so.

Another one is "the lesser of two evils" motto.

These rules of thumb tend to be overestimated, IMO. But some people swear by them.

There's only two viable options because it's too hard for a third party. But any serious reform, the most problematic area either go ignored, or get a spotlight shown on them long enough for a contender to defeat an incumbent, and then the talk goes silent. Or they are defended as an original parr of the Constitution, which is absurd because ohr entire election process looks very different from what it was.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This: "'safe echo chamber' of post-truth, indifference-to-the-scientific, an orientation towards escapism" is highly overestimated IMO.

Is this why there's a very strong correlation betweem "side" and if they aretaking covid seriously or thinking the seriousness a hoax?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

I'm all for that.

Beats having another civil war erupt which at this rate, I would think could very well happen in the coming century.

The question is, where is that flashpoint at?

Either that, or find yourself somewhere in the middle where everybody can live with a little give-and-take of which I don't think either the Republican or the Democrat party can achieve. Bottom line is we need a new political party and a very centrist one at that if things are going to work out amicably. Not the first time that's happened in our history. I think it's high time it comes around.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes, but the notion of partisanship is exaggerated by the MSM, and doesn't reflect the actual atmosphere in America.

...We're still very united. Only fringe radicals hope for the destruction of the U.S... Or fools who believe what they read, but have never been here.

I actually like to think that. You would think that people would notice by now that the media has been living in a type of bizzaro world that's very different from the world you and me walk around in and experience every day.

 

[Cooky]

Is this why there's a very strong correlation betweem "side" and if they aretaking covid seriously or thinking the seriousness a hoax?

The only thing I can offer as something positive to consider is that when I step outside, and breathe the fresh air, and feel the warm wind blow, I forget about all the man-made politics, and realize that there’s too much to be thankful for in nature to take part in some kind of rhetorical-based national divorce.

...There's far too much to be happy with, in life, to let "politics" effect me at that level.

 

[Cooky]

I actually like to think that. You would think that people would notice by now that the media has been living in a type of bizzaro world that's very different from the world you and me walk around in and experience every day.

There's really nothing causing anyone any kind of substantial harm... Well, aside from politics that is... If we let it.

I know I don't let it control my personal life very much. The world is much bigger than politics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The only thing I can offer as something positive to consider is that when I step outside, and breathe the fresh air, and feel the warm wind blow, I forget about all the man-made politics, and realize that there’s too much to be thankful for in nature to take part in some kind of rhetorical-based national divorce.

...There's far too much to be happy with, in life, to let "politics" effect me at that level.

Must be nice. I have a permanently vested interest in politics both as trans but also as a mental health professional. Republicans are pretty bad about that area as well, amd their cuts to healthcare will effect business once Im back in the field.
As for covid, if someone ignores distancing and calls this whole crisis a hoax, chamces are very good they are RW conservative Republican. Those who say reopen amd letthe elderly handle themselves, they too are typically Republicans.

 

[Cooky]

Must be nice. I have a permanently vested interest in politics both as trans but also as a mental health professional. Republicans are pretty bad about that area as well, amd their cuts to healthcare will effect business once Im back in the field.
As for covid, if someone ignores distancing and calls this whole crisis a hoax, chamces are very good they are RW conservative Republican. Those who say reopen amd letthe elderly handle themselves, they too are typically Republicans.

Indeed, I noticed you were one of those who rated the dismantling of America with a trophy in the OP. Not that it's really any of my business, but I did see that. I just hope as a friend to another that you take time to appreciate and invest your life in other important arenas of life... Such as relaxation and quality time for yourself.

Peace tends to be unfairly underrated these days by far too many good people.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Indeed, I noticed you were one of those who rated the dismantling of America with a trophy in the OP.

Yes. It's very divided, and you cant please some. Like Christian Conservatives who want their personal relgious dogma as law and relegating minorities to a less than second class citizenship. I say let them have their own corner so they rest of us are never endangered by their unholy moral crusades again.

 

[Cooky]

Yes. It's very divided, and you cant please some. Like Christian Conservatives who want their personal relgious dogma as law and relegating minorities to a less than second class citizenship. I say let them have their own corner so they rest of us are never endangered by their unholy moral crusades again.

I see your frustration towards these Christians as understandable. Certain kinds of people, all I can do sometimes is feel sorry for them, for being the way they are.

...But I think kicking them out of our country might be a little extreme... I mean, they have rights and they don't all want to live in the same places together, I'm sure. So it might be too cruel to divide the country up in practical terms. Even if it is a fun idea.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

rule of thumb came about as an expression as it was not lawful to beat thy wife with a cane more than the diameter of one's thumb
terrible expression
we need to rethink these 'rules of thumb'
they seem to be rules that hold things up or cause problems for someone for the most part
[ just a side comment from the balcony]

Like most folk etymologies, that's utterly baseless Rule of thumb - Wikipedia

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see your frustration towards these Christians as understandable. Certain kinds of people, all I can do sometimes is feel sorry for them, for being the way they are.

...But I think kicking them out of our country might be a little extreme... I mean, they have rights and they don't all want to live in the same places together, I'm sure. So it might be too cruel to divide the country up in practical terms. Even if it is a fun idea.

They can keep the name/country. I dont care. As long as no one else is subjected to their bull**** unwilling.

 

[Cooky]

They can keep the name/country. I dont care. As long as no one else is subjected to their bull**** unwilling.

I would imagine that's a slightly higher standard than most people would be willing to resort to... Even with allowing the same name as a bonus gesture.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

I agree that it is a time for peaceful separation between the states. But if you know our history, that aint goin to happen. The South tried peaceful separation and the Northern feds wouldn't have it. Since then the word 'united' is just bull***t. We are united by the bayonet only. But my how the North loves to proclaim how 'united' we are. All this bs over being united to fight Corona virsus is just more of the same bs.

I have always advised that we are so divided that the only peaceful way to exist is to secede peacefully. But governments are not willing to allow that for the loss of money and power.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Cooky]

I agree that it is a time for peaceful separation between the states. But if you know our history, that aint goin to happen. The South tried peaceful separation and the Northern feds wouldn't have it. Since then the word 'united' is just bull***t. We are united by the bayonet only. But my how the North loves to proclaim how 'united' we are. All this bs over being united to fight Corona virsus is just more of the same bs.

I have always advised that we are so divided that the only peaceful way to exist is to secede peacefully. But governments are not willing to allow that for the loss of money and power.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yeah, isn't that what the Tea Party went on about during the Obama administration?

...I never did see the benefit of that.

 

[Cooky]

States Seceding, like what Tea Partiers used to call for, is actually the opposite of "Nationalism" (which means nothing here) in the United States. I bet that would confuse a lot of Europeans and others who who tend to use European political terms interchangeably with American ones.

...Two totally different landscapes.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

How could one possibly want to share a country with them?

Some things cant be compromised on, making many issues irreconcilable

So I think a broad problem is, that we still haven't pinned down various rules about human nature. You guys are saying that it's one block of people against another block. The more I live and watch people, the less I am convinced that they would feel perpetually comfortable in groups any kind. Any 10 people doing something together who get along at the outset, will eventually dig in to each other even if it takes getting to the subtleties. At least in the context of the modern world, where a myriad market of choice exists, which perhaps fuels our ability to be more different from one another. Recognition of all this might be why the society has allowed for a sense of open political orientation. It's because it is engineered to allow this sense of human difference to be uncaged, which might only be caged otherwise

 

[Cooky]

So I think a broad problem is, that we still haven't pinned down various rules about human nature. You guys are saying that it's one block of people against another block. The more I live and watch people, the less I am convinced that they would feel perpetually comfortable in groups any kind. Any 10 people doing something together who get along at the outset, will eventually dig in to each other even if it takes getting to the subtleties. At least in the context of the modern world, where a myriad market of choice exists, which perhaps fuels our ability to be more different from one another. Recognition of all this might be why the society has allowed for a sense of open political orientation. It's because it is engineered to allow this sense of human difference to be uncaged, which might only be caged otherwise

And what if we view political bickering as uncaged venting, rather than dire civil unrest? I think that would be an enlightening way of viewing it.

...I mean, that's pretty much how I see it, up until the point of dismantling the Federal government, which I see as way over the top and totally unnecessary.

 

[Thief]

I want to believe I am wrong here. But the coronavirus crisis has made it clear that a certain section of the U.S. is willing to sacrifice there fellow citizens in order to protect the “economy”. Often that is a euphemism for their own wallets and money.

If it came down to a choice between their life and mine, I know what I would pick. And call me selfish, but when every vice, every corruption, every lie is justified as an inevitable consequence of “human nature”, you cannot show mercy or compassion or tolerance to those who will not and cannot demonstrate it to you.

The divisions in American politics are such that there is no shared sense of reality. There is no higher loyalty to truth, to knowledge, no respect for science. No area to agree on or to compromise. No scope or will for negotiation.

Where once I could understand the hatred of the right for communism and nazism, now they have become everything they claim to despise. Their actions speak louder than there words, and there words are so often lies that it is incredible and incomprehensible that they have the shamelessness to utter them.

That is not to say I am without feelings for them. But I would not wish to live with a partner who demonstrates, repeatedly and consistently, such staggering disregard for their own self-preservation or the lives of others.

What is the point of another election when the issues cannot be settled by reason and whose results be contested and assaulted whatever the outcome? When everything people have worked for is endangered by the incomprehensible absolutism of “freedom-at-any-price” or “economic-growth-at-any-price”, is it not time to part company and accept that this relationship cannot and will not work? Especially when neither side wishes or has the patience for it to do so?

I am willing to believe that by some freak of psychology, I may be misplaced but there are and always have been limits to tolerance based on the harm the abuse a person’s freedom can do to others.

I suspect, that many of these sentiments are widely shared, even by those whom these words are, in that imprecise and impersonal way, directed for their unwavering, uncompromising and incomprehensible loyalties.

Is it time for a formal, permanent and peaceful separation between the states within the union so that liberals and conservatives can go there separate ways and no longer be a “United States of America”?

just saw a report this morning
apparently ….Walmart....
has gained an economic leverage

we can sell what you make and you don't need to find retailers
we will do it for you.....sell all that you make

BUT.....this is the price we will sell your product
and you MUST produce that product that we sell at that price

if you cannot produce your product that we sell at the price we want
we will find someone who WILL produce that product as we say

and China has no intellectual property law

 

[Cooky]

just saw a report this morning
apparently ….Walmart....
has gained an economic leverage

we can sell what you make and you don't need to find retailers
we will do it for you.....sell all that you make

BUT.....this is the price we will sell your product
and you MUST produce that product that we sell at that price

if you cannot produce your product that we sell at the price we want
we will find someone who WILL produce that product as we say

and China has no intellectual property law

Wow, that's not definitely not socialism, but that's not traditional capitalism either... What the heck is that?

It sounds like some kind of social-supercapitalism. A Frankenstein of various parts!