The Untold Story: Why do they hate us so much?

[des]

I have never had any stomach for the "The hate us for who we are" argument that seems like it comes directly from the Bush administration. It is a piece of propaganda and dribble. Even Osama Bin Ladin has laughed at it. He said at one point, "if we hated freedom so much why didn't we bomb some target in a free country like Sweden". (or something like that).
Not that I care much what he says, but I believe it probably to be true.
It is not the *people* in the US who are really the target. The war against "terrorism" is a ridiculous idea and more of an excuse to have a war than anything. Terrorism is a tactic. (The US has engaged in it btw-- think Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden. The diliberate targetting and killing of civilians.)

So we are at war over a tactic but the tactic is meant as an a response to several horrendous policy decisions in the Middle East. I didn't say justify, it doesn't justify.

But US bombs have arguably killed many more civilians in Iraq than ever died on 9-11. And not that they cancel each other out.

We should be talking to Iran and Syria. We should be pressuring Israel. We should be gradually pulling troups out of a half dozen places.


--des

 

[TehuTi]

Reason 3: The U.S committed atrocities directly against them.​

Today In Iraq the U.S forces are still occupying the area. In aljazzera story's of American rape on Iraqi women is common. The killing of innocent Civilians are also very common. We don't hear about these rapes and massacres because we have a censored press. However, eventually if a criminal keeps on shop lifting he is going to get caught sooner or later. This time the criminal was caught. ​

Read the western article yourself:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-25.htm​

To summarize the article:​

As usual, the U.S. government tried to cover up the mass murder--it initially claimed that the victims were blown up by an insurgent IED. But, as Time reported in March, the "civilians who died in Haditha on Nov. 19 were killed not by a roadside bomb but by the Marines themselves, who went on a rampage in the village after the attack, killing 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children." As at My Lai, the bloodlust was not easily sated. "The raids took five hours and left at least 23 people dead."​

For Iraqis, American atrocities are old news, dating back to the invasion in March 2003 and a full decade earlier. (U.S. planes dropped so many bombs on Iraqi schools, hospitals and power plants during the 1990s that they ran out of targets.) So are the boulevards of New York, San Francisco and other cities where hundreds of thousands of American lefties once marched against the invasion of Iraq.​

Sad thing is that it didn't even make the morning news…​

Haditha, where two dozen were executed, was merely the 10,000th Haditha. While you receive the good nice pictures of marines giving little kids aid; reality sets in that they attacked a village and deliberately killed women and children. Remember this is a western story in aljazera you see these every single day. A foreign power comes and rapes your wife, executes your children, and makes your life a living hell.​

Does the Middle East have the right to hate America?​

Conclusion: such conditions as these cause the Middle East and desperate men to hate America. Conditions like these make the perfect breeding ground for terrorism. Solution? Just leave them alone and stop treating Israel like the 51st state. Muslim countries are going to start of with civil wars but in time, like every other country in history, they are going to have their revolution and become a moderate country. Please, if you don't want terrorism to exist then speak out against the genocide. Everyone has a sphere of influence so use it to make the world a better place.:yes: ​

I Agree How Can You Force This So-call Freedom And Democracy On Other When You Don't Have It HERE .

 

[Yerda]

I Agree How Can You Force This So-call Freedom And Democracy On Other When You Don't Have It HERE .

Where's HERE?

 

[anders]

Starting, I have to say that I think that no nations have the right to draw up borders affecting peole in other countries. The decision of the League of Nations was a mistake. The plan of Count Bernadotte might have worked, but it after he was murdered, the LoN chickened out.

No European power established Israel, it's people did that on their own when they declared the Nation of Israel in 1947

This fact deserves to be remembered. Israel came into existence by grabbing more than awarded by international accords.

 

[love]

Is it such a far fetched idea that the Iraqi people now have an opportunity to have a goverment that recognizes the will of the people? Is the divisions between the Shiite and Sunni so deep that only a totalitarian regime like Hussein's can control them? What is the U.S. doing now if not trying to keep the peace between interfaith factions determined to halt the peace process. Maybe my view is distorted by the Western media to such a point I am blind to the real motive of the U.S. government. Is the differences between the Shiite and the Sunni something that can be worked out with words?

 

[PureX]

Is it such a far fetched idea that the Iraqi people now have an opportunity to have a goverment that recognizes the will of the people? Is the divisions between the Shiite and Sunni so deep that only a totalitarian regime like Hussein's can control them? What is the U.S. doing now if not trying to keep the peace between interfaith factions determined to halt the peace process. Maybe my view is distorted by the Western media to such a point I am blind to the real motive of the U.S. government. Is the differences between the Shiite and the Sunni something that can be worked out with words?

Those are very good questions. And unfortunately, we don't know the answers. No one does.

But I can't help wondering why we put ourselves in the middle of this religious/cultural battle in the first place. And the sad answer to that question is known, though often ignored because it is so sad, and so foolish.

And that leaves us with the last question: what do we do now? We destroyed the government that was keeping the lid on it (Saddam's), and now it's breaking into a civil war in spite of our efforts at containing it. It seems to me that if these people are so intent of a civil war, then let them have one. Anyway, I think this path has been too faw trodden to avoid it, at this point. They are in effect already in a civil war, we're just making it harder for them to kill each other. So let's get out of the way and let them do what they seem so intent on diong. When the bloodbath is over, and they've finally had enough killing, then maybe we can help the winners rebuild the country that we helped destroy. I think we owe them that much.

What is sad is that so many people have been killed and will be killed that did not want any civil war. But that's the way wars are. And it's why I hope to God that the United States finally learns, this time, to stop trying to use war as a political tool. Ultimately, no one ever wins a war. All that really happens is they run out of people to kill, and people to do the killing, and so they finally have to stop and rebuild.

George Bush is a moron. Perhaps if he'd attended classes and read a book now and then while he was in school, he'd have been a little smarter than he is. But he didn't. He thought he knew it all already, even then. And he still does. That's why he's a fool and a moron, too. And we're damn fools for electing him. Doubly so for doing it twice.

 

[love]

Did we elect him in 2000? There seems to be some contraversy over that "fact".Seems they had a little problem with the hangy-dos or what ever you call them on the ballet sheets.

 

[PureX]

Did we elect him in 2000? There seems to be some contraversy over that "fact".Seems they had a little problem with the hangy-dos or what ever you call them on the ballet sheets.

To be perfectly honest, there are some very real suspicions about the second election, too, particularly with the untracable voting machines in Ohio, that couldn't be recounted, and that conveniently didn't work in the more democratic precincts. But that's not really relevant. The sad fact is that enough of us voted for him that a little bit of cheating made the difference. And for that, there are a lot of americans who have blood on their hands.

 

[gnostic]

Is it such a far fetched idea that the Iraqi people now have an opportunity to have a goverment that recognizes the will of the people?

I feel that it would have been best to divide the country into 3 new ones. Neither the Sunni trust the Shiites. Or the other way around. And the Kurds don't trust both Sunni and Shiite.

The only one who really welcomed the US and allies are the Kurds. Perhaps, the UN and allies grant them independence and statehood, redeployed to Kurd's territory and protect the Kurds. Let the Sunni and Shiite kill one another, because it seem inevitable civil war will happen, regardless what Bush tries to do.

 

[UnityNow101]

Dividing Iraq into 3 seperate countries or provinces may in theory sound like a good idea but may actually cause more problems then help the situation at all. Unless the Kurds are kept safe in the North of Iraq where all of the oil is. We know that Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds would all want their hands on the oil profits and the Kurdish land is the most oil rich of them all. The Kurdish people do seem to be the most balanced and peaceful of them all over there and I would not want to see the little bit of "peace" that they have in the area right now be jeopardized by dividing Iraq into multiple districts.

 

[gnostic]

All the more reason, the US and allies should protect the Kurds, when they partition the land. If the Shiites or Sunni neighbours, or even the Turks decided to attack the Kurds, the US should blast them.

The Kurds deserved their own home, which they didn't get when the Ottoman Empire fell. I really don't a damn if the Sunni and Shiites killed themselves.

Right now there is no chance in hell that Iraq can be a single nation with 3 different people. It's as simple as that. So why keep Americans and Iraqis keep deluding themselves of one united Iraq.

 

[roli]

Reason 3: The U.S committed atrocities directly against them.​

Today In Iraq the U.S forces are still occupying the area. In aljazzera story's of American rape on Iraqi women is common. The killing of innocent Civilians are also very common. We don't hear about these rapes and massacres because we have a censored press. However, eventually if a criminal keeps on shop lifting he is going to get caught sooner or later. This time the criminal was caught. ​

Read the western article yourself:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-25.htm​

To summarize the article:​

As usual, the U.S. government tried to cover up the mass murder--it initially claimed that the victims were blown up by an insurgent IED. But, as Time reported in March, the "civilians who died in Haditha on Nov. 19 were killed not by a roadside bomb but by the Marines themselves, who went on a rampage in the village after the attack, killing 15 unarmed Iraqis in their homes, including seven women and three children." As at My Lai, the bloodlust was not easily sated. "The raids took five hours and left at least 23 people dead."​

For Iraqis, American atrocities are old news, dating back to the invasion in March 2003 and a full decade earlier. (U.S. planes dropped so many bombs on Iraqi schools, hospitals and power plants during the 1990s that they ran out of targets.) So are the boulevards of New York, San Francisco and other cities where hundreds of thousands of American lefties once marched against the invasion of Iraq.​

Sad thing is that it didn't even make the morning news…​

Haditha, where two dozen were executed, was merely the 10,000th Haditha. While you receive the good nice pictures of marines giving little kids aid; reality sets in that they attacked a village and deliberately killed women and children. Remember this is a western story in aljazera you see these every single day. A foreign power comes and rapes your wife, executes your children, and makes your life a living hell.​

Does the Middle East have the right to hate America?​

Conclusion: such conditions as these cause the Middle East and desperate men to hate America. Conditions like these make the perfect breeding ground for terrorism. Solution? Just leave them alone and stop treating Israel like the 51st state. Muslim countries are going to start of with civil wars but in time, like every other country in history, they are going to have their revolution and become a moderate country. Please, if you don't want terrorism to exist then speak out against the genocide. Everyone has a sphere of influence so use it to make the world a better place.:yes: ​

Don't blame the Americans for the fundamentalism that these radicals had already developed deep within,it was just a matter of time before it came out.
Do you think they are truly retaliating on America.
No they are expressing their religion and it's strong dogma that says we all must convert, or die,this really is the underlying issue,
Then there is the muslim radicals who are killing all over the world in the name of Allah,jews Christians ,westerners, it's always those who oppose muslims that get the death sentence.
Has anyone really heard what those under Saddam have said about their freedom they have to walk the streets again.
Now it's turned into a power struggle, with muslims killing muslims all in the name of Allah, for land ,beliefs,power etc
This God they serve is certainly not the God of the bible nor is he related in any way to my Father in heaven and in no way reflects any of the attributes that God of creation displays.
These extremeists want to rule the known world and bring their God into power and control over all life and if they can blame the Americans ,Canadians the Brits for their reasoning behind them killing,they will to not look so suspicious.
If the west was'nt so ignorant to the fact that these people are infiltrating all our countries to rule and surpress and not to mention set up for attacks that will come in time from within, we would see the truth,it worked before and it will again.
Sleeper cells,suitcase bombs,and the like will be the future means in which their attacks will come.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

If the west was'nt so ignorant to the fact that these people are infiltrating all our countries to rule and surpress

Exactly who is infiltrating? Are you suggesting that converts and immigrants are "infiltrating" countries in order to rule and supress? If that is the case it certainly isn't working. I'm not even gonna address the whole God issue you brought up which has nothing to do with anything.

 

[des]

Well though, I am getting *very* tired at the amount of anti-Muslim stuff on this forum. I am not Muslim, nor would I ever be one, but that doesn't mean that I am tolerant of the amount of nastiness I see in the name of supposed polite debate. There are wonderful posts and some great ideas here, but it is taken away from by the amount of hatred I see expressed, often in the name of this or that god.

If we can talk rationally *here*, where the heck can we do it??

--des

Exactly who is infiltrating? Are you suggesting that converts and immigrants are "infiltrating" countries in order to rule and supress? If that is the case it certainly isn't working. I'm not even gonna address the whole God issue you brought up which has nothing to do with anything.

 

[des]

There might be something to be said for this. I think people tend to hate this idea, but... The country of Iraq never existed as such before the British "made it one". (One thing you learn from history is that people don't learn from history-- I have no idea who said this.) The only thing holding the country, such as it was, was the strong arm (and largely sectarian) activities of Sadaam Husein. It isn't like somehow we "gave them their country back" or that they have any experience with democracy or anything. The hatreds you see though, have more to do with "tribalism" (factors that are based on long held family and other connections) than on religion. Sunni and Shiites is merely a name and an excuse. They are not killing because of Allah, this is a misinterpretation. It's more like a very long running feud between the Hatfield's and McCoy's (a legandary feud of the 1800s US) with very high powered ammo. The original reasons for their hatred are long over, and all they know is that they hate each other, and any excuse is good enough.


--des

I feel that it would have been best to divide the country into 3 new ones. Neither the Sunni trust the Shiites. Or the other way around. And the Kurds don't trust both Sunni and Shiite.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Well though, I am getting *very* tired at the amount of anti-Muslim stuff on this forum. I am not Muslim, nor would I ever be one, but that doesn't mean that I am tolerant of the amount of nastiness I see in the name of supposed polite debate. There are wonderful posts and some great ideas here, but it is taken away from by the amount of hatred I see expressed, often in the name of this or that god.

If we can talk rationally *here*, where the heck can we do it??

--des

There are plenty of similar forums where these issues are debated rationally and intelligently. Of course some are less tolerant of the truth than others, and some are way less biased. I would say this particular forum leans slightly to the left of center on most issues, jmho.

Sorry to be blunt but some of us here disagree with your views in this regard and do NOT see what you see. I see a lot of nonsense including rudeness, mockery, taunting, hatred and nastiness coming from the other direction and frankly I am sick of it. Others have told me they have completely given up trying to discuss the issues at all because of heavy handed personal attacks, over the top censorship in the name of political correctness and a clear disregard for intelligent and rational debate -- in favor of rambling, incoherent, endless rhetoric and ad homs INCLUDING many baseless accusations of "intolerance". Such hypersensitivity from any religious group does not lend itself to rational discussion nor to credibility.

I would politely suggest if you see something SPECIFIC you would classify as nastiness or hatred from anyone just point it out and debate it like a rational adult rather than making sweeping across the board statements which I am sure we are ALL sick of, as after a while it sounds a little whiney.

It is time consuming and difficult to do point-by-point responses to such posts but it is an effective tool for pointing out logical fallacies and factual errors if you are really concerned about the issue.

sorry for the rant just had to add my 2 cents.

peace - moon woman

 

[Majikthise]

Nice rant. I like it.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I'm lost now. I thought this was a discussion dealing with American policies in relation to the middle east? How did we get on people being biased and using heavy-handed personal attacks?

 

[!Fluffy!]

I'm lost now. I thought this was a discussion dealing with American policies in relation to the middle east? How did we get on people being biased and using heavy-handed personal attacks?

I was responding directly to the previous poster in an opportunistic fashion, sorry to butt in.

 

[roli]

Exactly who is infiltrating? Are you suggesting that converts and immigrants are "infiltrating" countries in order to rule and supress? If that is the case it certainly isn't working. I'm not even gonna address the whole God issue you brought up which has nothing to do with anything.

Well ,the terroists of 911 where the nices guys in their neighborhoods,nobody expected they where capable of such atrocities,that's my point ,neither will Americans whenthe next attack comes.
That is the whole point behind terroists who claim it's in the name of there god,when it's really only ever been about the militants.
You need to see the video I recently saw and you won't find this in blockbuster,but it's called "Obsession" and it was put together by ex terrroists,of course you might be thinking ,oh! they probably were'nt real terroists ,so on and so on.

I have been studying info from sources strongly connected to those in the Isarali army and government,not to mention ex terroists and muslims who were not terroists
This video was put together by ex muslim from the middle east ,raised in the terriosts enviroment,endured war all their lives and have now come out from muslim faith and are now christians.
They have put this documentry together to show what is the future agenda of these terrroists,and they repeated how the west is so ignorant to the potential fact of the threat of terroism in this country and is almost a joke to those who are attempting to infiltrate.
These people are quoted as saying,They are right in our neighborhoods and at our work place and the devices they tend to use to will be packed in their personal briefcases or suitcases.
These bombs are made with this uranium they are mass producing
They are called sleeper cells those who are waiting patiently for the call, if you will to move without the slightest hesitation of what they leave behind ,the cause is the agenda and heaven is their motive.