The Value of Life

[The Sum of Awe]

Mathematics is not 100% objective. Were it not for humans, mathematics wouldn´t exist. Math exists in our heads, nowhere else. It is a technique to predict and understand.

Lol... the numbers are subjective, but the values exist in objective reality and literally describe objective reality.

Values have to do with goals. Without goals there are no values, so values can only be subjective.

Yes, which is what I'm saying, and understanding that our values are subjective, objectively we have no value.

If I say "2+2=4" that is still subjective. Why? Because why did I say that? if it has motivations then it is subjective. 2+2 exists in both our minds while I am trying to evidence a point. We cannot objectively evidence objectivity anyways.

Bro, 2+2=4 is objective. If you have two rocks, and another two rocks, you have four rocks. The concept of math, the written symbols for numbers, etc. those are subjective, but the actual math itself is objective.

If I say, this has value of 1, that is subjective. 1 apple is also 8 seeds, I dont want to know how many atoms, etc, etc. So why did I decide that the apple represented a "1" ? probably because my goal was to count apples, not seeds or atoms. The "1" was made for the express purpose of human service, it´s goal and in the same way, it´s value is only important for us. So all values can only be subjectively important.

Giving value to things is subjective, yes, but there is literally something there, whether you say 1 billion atoms for 1 individual, you can decide whether or not to count the individual or all of the atoms, and what is an individual is subjective, but the math to consider anything an individual is objective.

 

[Me Myself]

Lol... the numbers are subjective, but the values exist in objective reality and literally describe objective reality.



Yes, which is what I'm saying, and understanding that our values are subjective, objectively we have no value.



Bro, 2+2=4 is objective. If you have two rocks, and another two rocks, you have four rocks. The concept of math, the written symbols for numbers, etc. those are subjective, but the actual math itself is objective.



Giving value to things is subjective, yes, but there is literally something there, whether you say 1 billion atoms for 1 individual, you can decide whether or not to count the individual or all of the atoms, and what is an individual is subjective, but the math to consider anything an individual is objective.

so you understand that all values are subjective?

And why would math be objective? you cannot demonstrate it, you cannot differentiate "math" from it´s symbols. Math is a process done by our minds, or the techniques and laws that govern such process. and the symbols. Actually, all of that is math. And you cannot objectively evidence that they are an accurate perfect reflection of reality.

 

[NIX]

If a penny thought itself to have more value than a 20 dollar bill, it wouldn't.

If a 20 dollar bill thought itself to have more value than a penny, it wouldn't.

 

[Me Myself]

If a penny thought itself to have more value than a 20 dollar bill, it wouldn't.

A penny can think??

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, then it would be. That´s more or less exactly like money works .

If I had a penny, and everyone thought it was worth 20 bucks (let´s say they found it really shiny and nice) and are wiling to pay it, then my penny is effectively worth 20 bucks. I can sell it for that amount, so that´s what it´s worth.

 

[methylatedghosts]

I never denied that subjectivity exists (hence is real) but what is subjective is only a matter of delusion. Dreams exists yet they are not real, that's the best comparison to explain what I'm saying.

Curious. What makes a dream not real?

 

[NIX]

A penny can think??

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, then it would be. That´s more or less exactly like money works .

If I had a penny, and everyone thought it was worth 20 bucks (let´s say they found it really shiny and nice) and are wiling to pay it, then my penny is effectively worth 20 bucks. I can sell it for that amount, so that´s what it´s worth.

There is nothing objective about 'money'. It has no intrinsic worth. It does not exist without humans. Humans give 'money' it's 'value' (or worth). Humans create money, then 'believe in it'. Money is a human 'value system' in every way.

'Value' itself is a subjective concept that does not exist without humans (at least on our planet). Biological need (/desire/nature to exist/live/reproduce) exists objectively- but value is a purely subjective concept.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

so you understand that all values are subjective?

That was what was stated in the OP.

And why would math be objective? you cannot demonstrate it, you cannot differentiate "math" from it´s symbols. Math is a process done by our minds, or the techniques and laws that govern such process. and the symbols. Actually, all of that is math. And you cannot objectively evidence that they are an accurate perfect reflection of reality.

You can demonstrate math

If a 20 dollar bill thought itself to have more value than a penny, it wouldn't.

Agreed

A penny can think??

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, then it would be. That´s more or less exactly like money works .

If I had a penny, and everyone thought it was worth 20 bucks (let´s say they found it really shiny and nice) and are wiling to pay it, then my penny is effectively worth 20 bucks. I can sell it for that amount, so that´s what it´s worth.

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, it would only be true that way to humans, it wouldn't be in all reality, in all reality neither of them has a greater value.

Curious. What makes a dream not real?

Let's say I dream about walking in a desert, I didn't really walk in a desert.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Let's say I dream about walking in a desert, I didn't really walk in a desert.

Didn't you? Did you not feel the heat of the sun? Did you not smell it? Did you not hear it? Did you not see it?

 

[idav]

That's a good idea, pretty hypothetical but if Earth were the only planet with life on it (realistically unlikely but just for the sake), then Earth would be valuable but not the human species itself, not an individual lifeform, not an individual species, just Earth itself since it's the basis of life, in this hypothetical situation

Even if the earth isn't the only planet like this, it can be seen as an oasis of sorts within a vast relatively uneventful universe.

 

[Willamena]

Lol... the numbers are subjective, but the values exist in objective reality and literally describe objective reality.

Yes, which is what I'm saying, and understanding that our values are subjective, objectively we have no value.

...Giving value to things is subjective, yes, but there is literally something there, whether you say 1 billion atoms for 1 individual, you can decide whether or not to count the individual or all of the atoms, and what is an individual is subjective, but the math to consider anything an individual is objective.

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, it would only be true that way to humans, it wouldn't be in all reality, in all reality neither of them has a greater value.

According to what you've said, objectively nothing has any value, because value is assigned subjectively; but value exists objectively and describes reality. Do you see why people aren't getting it?

 

[Me Myself]

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, it would only be true that way to humans, it wouldn't be in all reality, in all reality neither of them has a greater value.

I am part of reality and humans are part of reality so that affirmation is plain wrong.

Let's say I dream about walking in a desert, I didn't really walk in a desert.

You really experienced the walking, and the walking is still part of objective reality in the sense that it is stored in your brain as an experience of yours. It truly happened. No, not in any desert that is outside of your head, but it did indeed truly happened. It would be false to say you didn´t do anything, or that there was "nothing real" about your dream. Your dream was real. The only "unrealistic" part of it was what you thought it was if you were not lucid dreaming. If you were lucid dreaming, your dream was exactly as real in every way as you knew it was. If you equate that reality to 0, you´d be falsifying reality, as the dream is a true part of reality, because it is a true part of you.

 

[NIX]

If humans put a penny as being more valuable than a 20 dollar bill, it would only be true that way to humans, it wouldn't be in all reality, in all reality neither of them has a greater value.

In all reality neither of them has ANY value.

 

[Me Myself]

value

Pronunciation: /ˈvaljuː/
Translate value into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
Definition of value
noun
1 [mass noun] the regard that something is held to deserve; the importance, worth, or usefulness of something:
your support is of great value
the material or monetary worth of something:
prints seldom rise in value

2 (values) principles or standards of behaviour; one’s judgement of what is important in life:
they internalize their parents' rules and values
3the numerical amount denoted by an algebraic term; a magnitude, quantity, or number:
the mean value of x
4 Music the relative duration of the sound signified by a note.
5 Linguistics the meaning of a word or other linguistic unit.
the quality or tone of a spoken sound; the sound represented by a letter.
6the relative degree of lightness or darkness of a particular colour:


Given the first definition, We are all objectively valuable as long as we are held important by someone (even if this person is our self)

The explanation is as such: One can objectively say "s/he is angry" if the person is angry. Likewise, one can objectively say "I am valuable" if one is valued or deemed important by someone. Yes, while it is a subjective appreciation that which causes one to be valuable, it is an objective fact that one is valuable because you can recognise wheter or not someone finds you valuable (in other words, you can say whether or not the word is proper to describe the person or object)

Hence, if something is valued, it is valuable.

Now, if someone wanted to say we are nor valuable to "objectivity" we would need to demonstrate objectivity having preferences or opinions which are human traits.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Even if the earth isn't the only planet like this, it can be seen as an oasis of sorts within a vast relatively uneventful universe.

Not really, what makes you think life is hard to find? What makes you think that even though it is hard to find, life is something exciting? Life is just a combination of a bunch of non-living things.

According to what you've said, objectively nothing has any value, because value is assigned subjectively; but value exists objectively and describes reality. Do you see why people aren't getting it?

I don't see how something subjective describes reality out of more than a subjective perspective. Yes, I notice that value exists objectively, but only because it exists subjectively.

I am part of reality and humans are part of reality so that affirmation is plain wrong.

Why not worship every atom, electron, quark while you're at it? Ad infinitum. They all exists in reality, but in reality, we all regard them as unimportant to notice.

You really experienced the walking, and the walking is still part of objective reality in the sense that it is stored in your brain as an experience of yours. It truly happened. No, not in any desert that is outside of your head, but it did indeed truly happened. It would be false to say you didn´t do anything, or that there was "nothing real" about your dream. Your dream was real. The only "unrealistic" part of it was what you thought it was if you were not lucid dreaming. If you were lucid dreaming, your dream was exactly as real in every way as you knew it was. If you equate that reality to 0, you´d be falsifying reality, as the dream is a true part of reality, because it is a true part of you.

You know what I meant, don't play semantics...

 

[NIX]

There is no one objective view of reality (what is/all that is). Eyes/I's (observers) are necessary to view anything at all. Only observers who conceive of 'value', will see 'value'. To the rest of the 'objective' universe, there is only 'what is'. (whatever that may be).

Perhaps it could be said in a roundabout way that any life form that fights to continue existing somehow 'values' it's being. ? It would seem that it values life over death anyway. Taken a step further, perhaps there are natural 'preferences' innate in the universe that we would call physics.

Does the universe 'value' it's laws enough to keep them? Or does it just do what it does.

 

[idav]

Not really, what makes you think life is hard to find? What makes you think that even though it is hard to find, life is something exciting? Life is just a combination of a bunch of non-living things.

It is about uniqueness. Part of value is by how much of it is there. Say there are a million of something that we start eliminating from the universe. Since there are only a million why care if they start being exterminated, but starts to gain value if it were say the last 10 in the universe. Unique is enough for me to place value in it. Though being unique is not necessarily less in value, but it is one way that we gauge value. The other way we gauge value is by demand. If there is nothing in the universe to assign value then there wouldn't be any value issue.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

Look at the human species, we appear so large, but really, think about 7^ billion organisms compared to every other amount of organisms on this planet, which there is beyond 2 million species so far discovered, and counting how many individuals are in each 2 million species... wow. If we remove the entire human species, not a stir.

Look at earth, now add the other planets, now the gas planets, now all of the minor planets (there are hundreds of them in just this solar system), don't forget the asteroid belt. Remove them all from the solar system, and all we are left with is the sun. How much mass was removed from the solar system? Not even a full 0.14%.

Remove this solar system from the milky way... doesn't matter. Remove the milky way from the universe... nothing. Remove an individual human from the universe, it doesn't matter.

This is not to be taken in a negative way, of course, since most of us know negative and positive are subjective measurements, we can't objectively measure them. Mathematics is the only thing that describes reality from an unbiased perspective, from a realistic perspective. Negative and positive, good or bad, etc. are based on a single organism's perspective. And like we agreed upon, a single organism's perspective has no value.

What are the mathematical chances of a cardiac arrest? It seems, every natural death, is a cardiac arrest, and I don't know what the time of every cardiac arrest will be.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

What is the spark of life, valued at? I don't know, and I hope you do, or don't.