The Value of Obedience

[Deeje]

That's called "brainwashing", Deeje.

Time will tell who has suffered the brain "washing", as opposed to the brain "cleansing", metis......I believe being raised in Christendom filled my mind with nothing but rubbish.....I was happy for the "cleansing". I could never return to Christendom, just like the Jewish Christians could never return to Judaism.

I made a choice 45 years ago and I have not been swayed to change my mind even slightly since then, in fact all my convictions have been confirmed and reinforced. The more I see of Christendom's friendship with this world, the more I see James 4:4 demonstrated. Quite frankly, I believe that God finds it offensive. But you are free to choose it if you think it will lead you to the life you seek.

This is the time for decision, not "limping on different opinions". (James 1:6-8) Will you still hold your present beliefs a year from now? Have your excursions into different belief systems brought you certainty and joy? Have you ever felt settled in a spiritual home? I can tell you, it's a nice place to live. Doubt just corrodes faith.

Conviction brings peace and confidence. I sincerely hope you find it.

 

[2ndpillar]

Time will tell who has suffered the brain "washing", as opposed to the brain "cleansing", metis......I believe being raised in Christendom filled my mind with nothing but rubbish.....I was happy for the "cleansing". I could never return to Christendom, just like the Jewish Christians could never return to Judaism.

Do you mind explaining how a JW is not part of "Christendom"? And if Judah, the Jews, are to have "David" "king over them" and "they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them" (Ezekiel 37:24), how is that not being Jewish, versus being a generalized "Jewish "Christian", sinning (transgressing the Law) (Romans 7:6), and walking in the steps of Paul?

 

[Deeje]

Do you mind explaining how a JW is not part of "Christendom"?

We hold no beliefs in common with the churches. We reject the trinity....immortality of the soul....hellfire....infant baptism....Christmas and Easter....and the structure and hierarchy of the church system. We are nothing like them.

And if Judah, the Jews, are to have "David" "king over them" and "they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them" (Ezekiel 37:24), how is that not being Jewish, versus being a generalized "Jewish "Christian", sinning (transgressing the Law) (Romans 7:6), and walking in the steps of Paul?

I have no reason to doubt Paul's authenticity, because the other apostles accepted him as an apostle, though not one of the 12. If he was not authentic, Gods spirit would have revealed it to them.

Paul's assignment was as 'an apostle to the nations'. His education and his Roman citizenship added weight to his mission, especially when addressing the Greek philosophers. He was not taught by the other apostles, but by the resurrected Jesus himself.

When the Jews rejected their Messiah, God chose a new nation to replace that disobedient people. When the "new covenant" was instituted by Jesus on his last night in the flesh, he dispensed with the old covenant and the Jewish nation in a fleshly sense. This "new covenant" was to be written on hearts, not on parchment. "Jews" (in a spiritual sense) now were those who obeyed the teachings of God's son...his final prophet. (Hebrews 1:1-2) This was now a spiritual nation, "the Israel of God", made up of both Jews and Gentiles. (Galatians 6:16) Gods covenant with Abraham was to benefit people of all nations, not just Jews.

If you have a problem with Paul's writings, how about John the Baptist's declaration to the Pharisees and Sadducees?

Matthew 3:7-12 ...."When When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance, but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to take off. That one will baptize you with holy spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will clean up his threshing floor completely and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.”

This shows you why Jesus also castigated the religious leaders at every opportunity. (Matthew ch 23) The Jewish system had produced its Messiah, but they did to him what they had done to God's prophets in the past......they ignored him and silenced him. (Matthew 23:37-39) God's purpose in connection with them was finished. His new nation would now become the "Kingdom of priests" that he needed to rule with his son in the heavens. (Revelation 20:6)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I wouldn't want to put too much weight on your foundational Acts, written by some unknown author, who was probably an associate of the false prophet Paul. By the way, do you abstain from "fornication", from "blood", such as transfusions, and things contaminated by idols (Acts 15:20)? 1 Corinthians 8: 7However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.

And by the way, Act 15:16-18 misquotes Amos 9:11-12. It is about Jacob coming into possession the "remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name". That does not happen until the "awesome day of the LORD", which is per (Joel 2:31-32) and Matthew 24:21, the "great tribulation". The "house of Israel" and the "house of Ephraim" have yet to be reunited and reestablished on the land "I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:15-25). The nations/Gentiles do not come under submission until the "Word of God" puts them there by means of the "rod of iron" (Revelation 19:15).

Amos 9: 11“In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David,
And wall up its breaches;
I will also raise up its ruins
And rebuild it as in the days of old;
12That they may possess the remnant of Edom
And all the nations who are called by My name,”
Declares the LORD who does this.

So, you're saying that you don't accept Acts of the Apostles as part of the Bible canon, right?

Then apparently, In your pov, God doesn't have sufficient power to protect His Word?

Because, Acts has been part of the Greek Scriptures for their entire existence! But I guess God, in your view, doesn't like the book, but He lacks the power to remove it.

See, if someone starts rejecting one part of the accepted Bible canon, there's no reason for them to accept any of it!

We can't exclude parts because it doesn't fit our beliefs...we need to adjust our views to fit it!

 

[2ndpillar]

So, you're saying that you don't accept Acts of the Apostles as part of the Bible canon, right?

Then apparently, In your pov, God doesn't have sufficient power to protect His Word?

Because, Acts has been part of the Greek Scriptures for their entire existence! But I guess God, in your view, doesn't like the book, but He lacks the power to remove it.

See, if someone starts rejecting one part of the accepted Bible canon, there's no reason for them to accept any of it!

We can't exclude parts because it doesn't fit our beliefs...we need to adjust our views to fit it!

According to the word of God, the LORD had taken two "staffs" to "pasture" a "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-17), which would be the "Christian" church. Those two staffs were called "Favor" and "Cords", or Paul and Peter. A third shepherd, "annihilated" together with the other two, in "one month"/generation, was mentioned in Zechariah 11:8 & 12 & 13, and as shown in Matthew 27:9-10 to be Judas Iscariot. Your unknown author of Acts, is supposedly an associate of the false prophet Paul, and his writing sits in your NT by reason of one of the daughters of Babylon (Revelation 17:5), the Roman church. The existence of the generally recognized canon stems from the year 367 A.D., and was part of the pagan Easter festival letter written by Athanasius, a member of the Council of Nicaea crowd, who helped implement the pagan notion of a triad of gods. The part of the "bible" that Yeshua accepted was the "Law and the prophets", the OT. His notion of the NT would be best represented by the parable of the "good seed", the word of the kingdom, planted together with the "tare seed", all planted in the same field. They were to remain together until the "end of the age" when the "tares" would be gathered and burnt (Matthew 13:30 & 40-41).

 

[2ndpillar]

We hold no beliefs in common with the churches. We reject the trinity....immortality of the soul....hellfire....infant baptism....Christmas and Easter....and the structure and hierarchy of the church system. We are nothing like them

Yet you accept their canon as the foundation of your beliefs. I see a crack in your foundation. As for your structure and hierarchy, it parallels theirs and is built on the structure proposed by the false prophet Paul. A structure antithetical to the structure proposed by Yeshua in Matthew 23:8-10.

 

[2ndpillar]

I have no reason to doubt Paul's authenticity, because the other apostles accepted him as an apostle, though not one of the 12. If he was not authentic, Gods spirit would have revealed it to them.

The disciples were specifically told to leave the "tares" alone, and not to rip them out of the ground (Matthew 13:28-29). The time for ripping them up and burning them was to be the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:30 & 40-41).

 

[2ndpillar]

This shows you why Jesus also castigated the religious leaders at every opportunity. (Matthew ch 23) The Jewish system had produced its Messiah, but they did to him what they had done to God's prophets in the past......they ignored him and silenced him. (Matthew 23:37-39) God's purpose in connection with them was finished. His new nation would now become the "Kingdom of priests" that he needed to rule with his son in the heavens. (Revelation 20:6)

The "first resurrection" of those who had not worshipped the beast and had the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4) has not happened as of yet. Those will reign with "Christ" for 1000 years. That also has not happened as yet. Double mindedness leads to insanity if taken to the fullest measure. The 2nd resurrection happens after the millennium (Revelation 20:5). The ruling/reigning will occur on earth. The earth is now ruled by the "ruler of the world" (John 14:30).

 

[Deeje]

Yet you accept their canon as the foundation of your beliefs. I see a crack in your foundation. As for your structure and hierarchy, it parallels theirs and is built on the structure proposed by the false prophet Paul. A structure antithetical to the structure proposed by Yeshua in Matthew 23:8-10.

It isn't "their" canon if it is the word of God. Do you honestly believe that God would leave us in doubt about what is "his" word and what is not? Do you honestly believe that God has no power to preserve his word regardless of who was used to compile it? Can God not use even his enemies for his own purpose? What kind of powerless god do you serve? One who reveals things only to you? Seriously?

If Paul is not a false prophet, then you are. To speak against a servant of the true God and to cast doubt on his authenticity, you are taking a great responsibility upon yourself, regardless of your sincerity. You are virtually accusing God of misleading people by allowing the words of a charlatan to occupy the greater part of Christian scripture.

On whose authority do you do this? What forms the basis of your accusations against Paul?

 

[Deeje]

The disciples were specifically told to leave the "tares" alone, and not to rip them out of the ground (Matthew 13:28-29). The time for ripping them up and burning them was to be the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:30 & 40-41).

The tares were to grow in the same field as the wheat.....but the identification of them would become obvious only in the time of the end. The wheat would not resemble the tares at all in this period. There is now a clear distinction.

The reapers are poised as we speak to gather up the counterfeits and dispose of them.

 

[Deeje]

The "first resurrection" of those who had not worshipped the beast and had the mark of the beast (Revelation 20:4) has not happened as of yet. Those will reign with "Christ" for 1000 years. That also has not happened as yet. Double mindedness leads to insanity if taken to the fullest measure. The 2nd resurrection happens after the millennium (Revelation 20:5). The ruling/reigning will occur on earth. The earth is now ruled by the "ruler of the world" (John 14:30).

The first resurrection began when Christ returned. He is already "present" ruling as king over his disciples, just as it says in Matthew 24...there would be a "sign" of his "presence" (not of his coming) because his 'manifestation' is a separate event when he sits in judgment of all mankind.....and that "sign" is everything that has transpired since 1914 when the whole world was plunged into a war that came out of the blue, and has robbed the world of peace ever since. It was followed by famine and disease, along with major earthquakes that continue to escalate as these last days draw to a close. The increase in lawlessness (not just breaking the laws of the land, but more importantly the breaking of God's laws) and the love of neighbor that we used to see, has vanished, and people now have lost interest in their real neighbors and concentrate on their fake idols....their celebrities...their material acquisitions....their lifestyles....their fake social media friends. These "friends" are now carried everywhere with them on their phones. They are living in an altered (but carefully orchestrated) reality.

We have witnessed the return of Christ by the sign he gave to indicate that his rulership had begun, but there was a lot to do before his visible manifestation.....one important aspect of the sign was a global preaching work to alert the world about his message of salvation, along with the judgment to follow. He used the days of Noah to illustrate the typical response of the majority of people. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 24:37-39)

I don't believe that there is much time left before Jesus shows himself to the world as their judge, but a "great tribulation" has to occur first. (Matthew 24:21)

Buckle up...we are in for a bumpy ride.

 

[2ndpillar]

The first resurrection began when Christ returned. He is already "present" ruling as king over his disciples, just as it says in Matthew 24...there would be a "sign" of his "presence" (not of his coming) because his 'manifestation' is a separate event when he sits in judgment of all mankind.....and that "sign" is everything that has transpired since 1914 when the whole world was plunged into a war that came out of the blue, and has robbed the world of peace ever since. It was followed by famine and disease, along with major earthquakes that continue to escalate as these last days draw to a close. The increase in lawlessness (not just breaking the laws of the land, but more importantly the breaking of God's laws) and the love of neighbor that we used to see, has vanished, and people now have lost interest in their real neighbors and concentrate on their fake idols....their celebrities...their material acquisitions....their lifestyles....their fake social media friends. These "friends" are now carried everywhere with them on their phones. They are living in an altered (but carefully orchestrated) reality.

We have witnessed the return of Christ by the sign he gave to indicate that his rulership had begun, but there was a lot to do before his visible manifestation.....one important aspect of the sign was a global preaching work to alert the world about his message of salvation, along with the judgment to follow. He used the days of Noah to illustrate the typical response of the majority of people. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 24:37-39)

I don't believe that there is much time left before Jesus shows himself to the world as their judge, but a "great tribulation" has to occur first. (Matthew 24:21)

Buckle up...we are in for a bumpy ride.

The "tribulation", the falling away, the wars, lawlessness, famines and earthquakes, and the misleading of the many (Matthew 24:5-12) have been going on for a lot longer than 100 years. The "great tribulation" remains "right at the door" (Matthew 24:33). It is after the "great tribulation" when the "king" will separate the goats from the sheep (Matthew 25:33). The tares, and the stumbling blocks, and the lawlessness remains in place (Matthew 13:30 & 40-41). As for Noah, he was smart enough to prepare for what was coming. Apparently, you are following Paul, and think you will be saved before the destruction comes, yet Yeshua says the opposite. Not even the "elect" will escape the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22), and the tares will be gathered out first, before the wheat is put into the barn.(Matthew 13:30).

 

[2ndpillar]

The tares were to grow in the same field as the wheat.....but the identification of them would become obvious only in the time of the end. The wheat would not resemble the tales at all in this period. There is now a clear distinction.

The reapers are poised as we speak to gather up the counterfeits and dispose of them.

The only distinction between the tares (wicked/lawless) and the wheat (righteous), is that wheat produces good fruit, the tares do not. The tares in this age, indeed think they produce good fruit, but also think it is not necessary for them to do so. Judging between the righteous and the wicked is reserved for "on that day" (Malachi 3:17-18).

 

[2ndpillar]

It isn't "their" canon if it is the word of God. Do you honestly believe that God would leave us in doubt about what is "his" word and what is not? Do you honestly believe that God has no power to preserve his word regardless of who was used to compile it? Can God not use even his enemies for his own purpose? What kind of powerless god do you serve? One who reveals things only to you? Seriously?

If Paul is not a false prophet, then you are. To speak against a servant of the true God and to cast doubt on his authenticity, you are taking a great responsibility upon yourself, regardless of your sincerity. You are virtually accusing God of misleading people by allowing the words of a charlatan to occupy the greater part of Christian scripture.

On whose authority do you do this? What forms the basis of your accusations against Paul?

The message of Paul, the false gospel of grace/cross, is antithetical to the message of the kingdom of heaven, which, much like the example of the kingdom of the U.S., is built on a set of laws. It is the purpose of the devil, and his sons, to undo the law, or to make it appear obsolete (Romans 7:6), whereas the followers will still be saved from death (Genesis 3:4) & (1 Corinthians 15).

The day of wrath is coming, and an example of how the lawless versus the righteous might appear, would be to make a map of the U.S. designated blue for the lawless, except for the law of sharia, and red for those who abide by the law. Apparently, if the example holds form, as with Lot, the wicked will receive the lions share of the fire, smoke, and sulfur. Apparently the blue portion, either didn't vote, or apparently voted for the wicked.

 

[Deeje]

As for Noah, he was smart enough to prepare for what was coming.

It had nothing to do with him being smart. He alone was deemed to be the only righteous man in existence. God revealed to Noah that he was going to rid the world of wickedness before he even had children. By the time the ark was finished, Noah had three sons who had all taken a wife. It was obviously a very time consuming exercise to be given the blueprints and told to construct something so massive from scratch.

Noah had to be obedient to God's direction because God did not save Noah....he taught him how to save himself, and it required a great amount of time and effort. Had Noah faultered on any of the instructions given to him, it could have meant the demise of his whole family. This is the value of obedience.

Apparently, you are following Paul, and think you will be saved before the destruction comes, yet Yeshua says the opposite. Not even the "elect" will escape the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:22), and the tares will be gathered out first, before the wheat is put into

Where do you get this stuff? Who else believes what you believe?
Who are the members of your brotherhood....do you even have one?

What makes you point accusing fingers at Paul? What possible reason could he have for pretending to be a Christian convert? He was a proud Pharisee who was literally brought to his knees by the resurrected Jesus Christ. His apostleship was never questioned by the 12, who were guided by holy spirit. His life as a Christian was one of self sacrifice and he suffered much persecution at the hands of his own countrymen. He had a promising career as a respected Pharisee and gave it all up for the difficult life of a persecuted Christian. What was in that for him?

The message of Paul, the false gospel of grace/cross, is antithetical to the message of the kingdom of heaven, which, much like the example of the kingdom of the U.S., is built on a set of laws. It is the purpose of the devil, and his sons, to undo the law, or to make it appear obsolete (Romans 7:6), whereas the followers will still be saved from death (Genesis 3:4) & (1 Corinthians 15).

You misread Paul's writings to further your own twisted viewpoint.
The Law was fulfilled in Christ and it was finished. The "new covenant" no longer consisted of a written law but was to be inscribed on hearts, as Jeremiah confirmed. This had nothing to do with Paul, who received his education from Jesus, just as the other apostles had done. The only ones saved are the obedient ones.

You do him a grave injustice because the "grace" that the Bible speaks of is not unconditional....just as forgiveness is not unconditional. You do understand that life itself was never unconditional? God put conditions on everything, otherwise there would be no reason for judgment. Think about it.

The day of wrath is coming, and an example of how the lawless versus the righteous might appear, would be to make a map of the U.S. designated blue for the lawless, except for the law of sharia, and red for those who abide by the law. Apparently, if the example holds form, as with Lot, the wicked will receive the lions share of the fire, smoke, and sulfur. Apparently the blue portion, either didn't vote, or apparently voted for the wicked.

OMG....you reduce the last days of this world down to the state of American politics?
Now that is just sad.

Believe it or not, the rest of the world does exist you know......

 

[2ndpillar]

What makes you point accusing fingers at Paul? What possible reason could he have for pretending to be a Christian convert? He was a proud Pharisee who was literally brought to his knees by the resurrected Jesus Christ. His apostleship was never questioned by the 12, who were guided by holy spirit. His life as a Christian was one of self sacrifice and he suffered much persecution at the hands of his own countrymen. He had a promising career as a respected Pharisee and gave it all up for the difficult life of a persecuted Christian. What was in that for him?

Paul didn't voluntarily leave his profession of being a Pharisee. His sermon stated that he was a Pharisee of Pharisees. Paul was run out of Jerusalem by Jews, and his life saved by his lord Caesar, with 2 cohorts of Roman soldiers. Listen well, Paul, as the arm of the "enemy", has planted the tare seeds (Matthew 13:25), and while under protection from Yeshua (Matthew 13:28-29) until the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:40-41), that protection ends at the "end of the age". Guess what, we are at the end of the age, and Paul, as one of "those who commit lawlessness" (Romans 7:6) will be gathered out and "cast into the furnace of fire". What pray tell will happen to his tare followers?

 

[2ndpillar]

OMG....you reduce the last days of this world down to the state of American politics?
Now that is just sad.

Believe it or not, the rest of the world does exist you know......

The rest of the world would represent the nations gathered against Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:1-3), which will also incur the wrath of God (Revelation 16:13-19), subject to their lawlessness/wickedness, as per the example of Lot. Keep in mind that Bibi is on a political bubble, a prime time for the world to act, and an Imam just gave a speech calling for the sacrifice of 10 million Muslims to capture Jerusalem. Muslim willing to sacrifice 'millions' of lives to retake 'Palestine' - WND - WND I don't think those with the "mark of the beast", your "Christians", and the other not so "Christian Christians" will come out on top. (Revelation 14:10). The state of the U.S. mirrors the state of the world, except that the nations of Daniel 2:44 will be "crushed" and put to an end.

 

[2ndpillar]

You misread Paul's writings to further your own twisted viewpoint.
The Law was fulfilled in Christ and it was finished. The "new covenant" no longer consisted of a written law but was to be inscribed on hearts, as Jeremiah confirmed. This had nothing to do with Paul, who received his education from Jesus, just as the other apostles had done. The only ones saved are the obedient ones.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 was speaking to the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah". The new "covenant" you speak about is the Pharisee Paul's new "covenant with death", which "shall not stand" (Isaiah 28:18).

 

[2ndpillar]

Noah had to be obedient to God's direction because God did not save Noah....he taught him how to save himself, and it required a great amount of time and effort. Had Noah faultered on any of the instructions given to him, it could have meant the demise of his whole family. This is the value of obedience.

You remind me of my middle sister, who is a fervent "Christian", and has a brain tumor. My older sister notified me that she might die today. Like you, she has not been able to acknowledge her guilt (Hosea 5:15) and be healed (Hosea 6:1).

Noah didn't save himself. His obedience of acting on his belief, enabled him to survive. He spent around 100 years building an ark. The parallel is that if the flood hadn't been cut short, no man would have survived (Matthew 24:22)

 

[metis]

That is the kettle calling the pot black. My pre ecumenical council nuns taught that I couldn't go into a Protestant church,

And that was pre-Vatican II, and I would not have belonged to the RCC is that had prevailed.

and that my protestant friends were going to hell.

That was never a teaching within the Church, but some taught it anyway. BTW, many Protestants reciprocated, even in the 20th century, and I grew up in one of those churches.

The Catholic Inquisition burned people alive who did not toe their line,

That actually was mostly secular, but unfortunately many clergy did collaborate. Again, some Protestants did much the same.

The pope gave permission to the Conquistadors to kill and make slaves of those who would not convert to their way of thinking.

The Church banned using the Amerindians as slaves, and most of the slave trade coming out of Africa was controlled by Protestants, especially the Dutch and the English.

Yes, there were a lot of bad things done back then by many groups, and Catholic definitely have to absorb some of the blame, no doubt.