The Virgin Mary - or was she?

[kadzbiz]

I have just watched the first part of documentary where an American geneologist is researching "The Real Family of Jesus". A number of new things came to my notice, but one of them was the most plausible idea that Jesus' mother Mary was not in fact a virgin. It was said that Jesus had a number of brothers and some sisters. From ossuary records and studies of the names of Jesus' brothers, it was determined that Mary must have been the mother of Judas and Simon also. Any thoughts about Mary and this idea please?

 

[Francine]

I have just watched the first part of documentary where an American geneologist is researching "The Real Family of Jesus". A number of new things came to my notice, but one of them was the most plausible idea that Jesus' mother Mary was not in fact a virgin. It was said that Jesus had a number of brothers and some sisters. From ossuary records and studies of the names of Jesus' brothers, it was determined that Mary must have been the mother of Judas and Simon also. Any thoughts about Mary and this idea please?

Karl Keating (extracted and re-arranged):

As he was dying, Jesus entrusted his mother to the apostle John (John 19:26–27), yet the Gospels mention four of his "brethren": James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is hard to imagine why Jesus would have disregarded family ties and made this provision for his mother if these four were also her sons...Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

"Brethren of the Lord"

 

[Katzpur]

I have just watched the first part of documentary where an American geneologist is researching "The Real Family of Jesus". A number of new things came to my notice, but one of them was the most plausible idea that Jesus' mother Mary was not in fact a virgin. It was said that Jesus had a number of brothers and some sisters. From ossuary records and studies of the names of Jesus' brothers, it was determined that Mary must have been the mother of Judas and Simon also. Any thoughts about Mary and this idea please?

Not all Christians believe that Mary was a virgin throughout her life. I believe it is primarily Catholics who do. Surely you don't believe it's possible for geneologists, geneticists, anthropologists, historians or theologians to ever be able to determine with any agree of certainly if and when Mary lost her virginity. I believe that she was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to her firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. I believe it is both illogical and pointless to believe that she never was intimate with her husband after Jesus' birth.

 

[Smoke]

Not all Christians believe that Mary was a virgin throughout her life. I believe it is primarily Catholics who do. Surely you don't believe it's possible for geneologists, geneticists, anthropologists, historians or theologians to ever be able to determine with any agree of certainly if and when Mary lost her virginity. I believe that she was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to her firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. I believe it is both illogical and pointless to believe that she never was intimate with her husband after Jesus' birth.

All the historic churches -- Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Church of the East -- affirm the lifelong virginity of Mary.

While I think that's unlikely, it's always struck me as odd that people could reject it as ridiculously implausible that she was sexually abstinent after Jesus' birth, but very believable that she was abstinent before.

 

[athanasius]

I wrote a paper for my mariology class utilizing the early Fathers and scripture on this very subject. it is by no means exhaustive, its only 5 pages but it does give evidence from history and scripture. Even the protestant reformers all held Mary to be a perpetual virgin. If anyone is interested I will send it to them via email.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

If I remember correctly, in the Eastern churches Joseph is not a young man, but an older one. All of Jesus's brothers are actually his step-siblings through his earthly father's previous marriage.

 

[Smoke]

If I remember correctly, in the Eastern churches Joseph is not a young man, but an older one. All of Jesus's brothers are actually his step-siblings through his earthly father's previous marriage.

That's correct. He was usually portrayed as an older man in the West until relatively recently, too.

 

[Katzpur]

While I think that's unlikely, it's always struck me as odd that people could reject it as ridiculously implausible that she was sexually abstinent after Jesus' birth, but very believable that she was abstinent before.

But remember, she was not married to Joseph when Jesus was born, and there are people out there who actually believe in abstinence until marriage. Not quite as many people -- by a longshot -- believe in abstinence after marriage. Why on earth would God expect a married woman to remain a virgin? I don't get it.

 

[athanasius]

That's correct. He was usually portrayed as an older man in the West until relatively recently, too.

He still is. We are taught that he was most likely older and may have had children from another marriage.

 

[athanasius]

But remember, she was not married to Joseph when Jesus was born, and there are people out there who actually believe in abstinence until marriage. Not quite as many people -- by a longshot -- believe in abstinence after marriage. Why on earth would God expect a married woman to remain a virgin? I don't get it.

Some early Jews used to do it and even early Christians. They were called Jospehite Marriages if I am correct. The point about them being married when Christ was born is also believed by the Catholic church.

 

[athanasius]

The offer still stands. I will send my apologetic term paper on the perpetual virginity to anybody via email if they like.

 

[Francine]

Why on earth would God expect a married woman to remain a virgin? I don't get it.

Mary served in the temple. Joseph was an elderly widower who already had children. He was chosen to support Mary and protect her vow of virginity. When Mary got prego anyway, she was "fired".

 

[kadzbiz]

..... had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother." .....

I wondered if it was something like that.

.....I believe that she was a virgin when she conceived and gave birth to her firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. I believe it is both illogical and pointless to believe that she never was intimate with her husband after Jesus' birth.

From the research, it was intimated that Jesus was not her first. It was also practice of the time that a man could divorce his wife after ten years of being barren to him. Would she honestly do that deliberately? Doubt it.

If I remember correctly, in the Eastern churches Joseph is not a young man, but an older one. All of Jesus's brothers are actually his step-siblings through his earthly father's previous marriage.

True indeed. He was much older. Mary in fact would have been very young, perhaps, as was the custom of those times, as young as 12.

The offer still stands. I will send my apologetic term paper on the perpetual virginity to anybody via email if they like.

What would it prove?

 

[Smoke]

True indeed. He was much older. Mary in fact would have been very young, perhaps, as was the custom of those times, as young as 12.

I remember reading an article by St. Dmitri of Rostov, who said -- not that he was there -- that Mary would have been between 12 and 17.

 

[crystalonyx]

I don't believe Jesus, Mary or Joesph existed, any more than Jupiter, Juno, or Mars existed.

 

[blackout]

While I think that's unlikely, it's always struck me as odd that people could reject it as ridiculously implausible that she was sexually abstinent after Jesus' birth, but very believable that she was abstinent before.

It IS rather funny isn't it?!
Never considered that before.
Frubal worthy irony!

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I love non-Biblical specualtion in a Biblical debate. I suppose it comes from being a narrow-minded Biblist.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I don't believe Jesus, Mary or Joesph existed, any more than Jupiter, Juno, or Mars existed.

That's alright, they had never heard of you either.

 

[crystalonyx]

That's alright, they had never heard of you either.

Quite likely, since they never existed.

 

[Smoke]

I don't believe Jesus, Mary or Joesph existed, any more than Jupiter, Juno, or Mars existed.

I think we have pretty good evidence that Jesus existed, and we can assume that he had parents; most people do.

I think people who don't believe Jesus existed often confuse the person of Jesus with all the mythological beliefs that are added on to Jesus. You can believe that the Buddha existed without believing he came out of his mother's side after she was pierced by a white elephant's tusk; you can believe that Alexander the Great existed without believing he was a son of Zeus or even a descendant of Heracles; you can believe that George Washington existed without believing the cherry tree story. Many historical persons have been the subject of mythological fantasy.