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The Virgin Mary - or was she?

Hope

Princesinha
I understand that to a person who shares your belief system, virgin motherhood is more believable than lifelong virginity. But that's one of the things that's so very odd about your belief system. If I told you my cousin never had sex with her husband after her child was born, you might be more likely to believe that than if I told you she never had sex with anybody before her child was born.

Of course. A virgin birth is a miracle, and I've already admitted one has to have faith to accept a virgin birth with Mary.

But unless your cousin is "chosen" by God for some special purpose like Mary was, then there's no reason I have to believe any of your story.....your comparison isn't valid.

Do you imagine that "sinful human nature" is inherited through the father, and only through the father? :rolleyes:

I honestly don't know. For all we know, Jesus didn't share any of Mary's genes either. The Bible doesn't shed any light in this area. It simply says Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit. And because it was the Holy Spirit's work, and not the natural joining of two sinful human beings, Jesus didn't inherit sin.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
I think we have pretty good evidence that Jesus existed, and we can assume that he had parents; most people do.

I think people who don't believe Jesus existed often confuse the person of Jesus with all the mythological beliefs that are added on to Jesus. You can believe that the Buddha existed without believing he came out of his mother's side after she was pierced by a white elephant's tusk; you can believe that Alexander the Great existed without believing he was a son of Zeus or even a descendant of Heracles; you can believe that George Washington existed without believing the cherry tree story. Many historical persons have been the subject of mythological fantasy.


If you have to "believe" someone existed then there isn't much hard evidence that that person did live. In the case of Jesus, there really is no hard historical evidence a man remotely similar to the biblical Jesus ever existed.
 

Hope

Princesinha
If you have to "believe" someone existed then there isn't much hard evidence that that person did live. In the case of Jesus, there really is no hard historical evidence a man remotely similar to the biblical Jesus ever existed.

You sure are stuck on this whole "Jesus never existed" thing, aren't you?

Perhaps you need to get with the times, my friend. Because you are in the minority. Most people with any kind of education know Jesus was in fact a historical person. All they have to do is look at the evidence (which, apparently, you are in denial about...).

MB already explained you don't have to believe all the Biblical stuff surrounding Him, but to deny His existence completely is to put one's head in the sand, essentially.
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
You sure are stuck on this whole "Jesus never existed" thing, aren't you?

Perhaps you need to get with the times, my friend. Because you are in the minority. Most people with any kind of education know Jesus was in fact a historical person. All they have to do is look at the evidence (which, apparently, you are in denial about...).

MB already explained you don't have to believe all the Biblical stuff surrounding Him, but to deny His existence completely is to put one's head in the sand, essentially.

OK, please list all of this obvious "hard evidence" of the existence of a man named Jesus who fit the stories of the Bible. It should be easy.
 

Ringer

Jar of Clay
OK, please list all of this obvious "hard evidence" of the existence of a man named Jesus who fit the stories of the Bible. It should be easy.

From Wikipedia:

Most scholars in the fields of biblical studies and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.However, a very small minority argue that Jesus never existed as a historical figure, but was a purely symbolic or mythical figure syncretized from various non-Abrahamic deities and heroes.
 

Smoke

Done here.
I honestly don't know. For all we know, Jesus didn't share any of Mary's genes either. The Bible doesn't shed any light in this area.
I'm having trouble seeing Jesus as an alien implant in Mary's womb, with no human ancestry.

And because it was the Holy Spirit's work, and not the natural joining of two sinful human beings, Jesus didn't inherit sin.
That seems to put you in Augustine's camp, believing that it's sexual intercourse that causes original sin. Frankly, though, I think Augustine was a disturbed individual. Does the Bible actually say anything at all about Jesus' sinlessness being the result of his virgin conception?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I'm having trouble seeing Jesus as an alien implant in Mary's womb, with no human ancestry.

That seems to put you in Augustine's camp, believing that it's sexual intercourse that causes original sin. Frankly, though, I think Augustine was a disturbed individual. Does the Bible actually say anything at all about Jesus' sinlessness being the result of his virgin conception?


I completely agree with the above two statements.
 

Smoke

Done here.
If you have to "believe" someone existed then there isn't much hard evidence that that person did live. In the case of Jesus, there really is no hard historical evidence a man remotely similar to the biblical Jesus ever existed.
I'm using "believe" in the sense of acknowledging something as likely, not in the sense of having faith.

Personally, I think the evidence of Paul is convincing. Paul was in conflict with James, with no reason to ascribe fictitious credentials to him, but still acknowledged James as Jesus' brother. Why would he do that, unless James was in fact known to be Jesus' brother? Also, the Book of Acts, which is little short of a propaganda piece for Paul and his system of Christianity, acknowledges that James was the leader of the Jesus community at Jerusalem. At the "council" of Jerusalem, there is in fact no council. The arguments are presented, and then James makes a decision. James is also mentioned by Josephus. All in all, I think it's reasonable to conclude that James did exist, that he led the Jesus community at Jerusalem, and that he was in fact Jesus' brother.

Then there are the gospel accounts. While they obviously have some mythical elements, they also have elements that wouldn't be likely to be included unless they were true. For instance, when the Pauline church was plugging away trying to convert Gentiles, why would the gospel writers have Jesus saying he was sent only to the Jews, unless that was a well-known saying of his? Why would the Pauline church depict Jesus as having been baptized by John (who baptized "for the remission of sins") unless it was well-known that Jesus had been baptized by John? In fact, the baptism of Jesus by John is so startling that even the authors of the gospels seem to have had a problem with it -- they show John protesting; they show the Holy Spirit descending. Clearly, Jesus' baptism is something that requires explanation. It's just for that reason that most scholars think Jesus' baptism by John is one of the most certainly established facts of Jesus' life.

Now, if you want "hard" evidence -- a birth certificate, a deed to a house, or something like that, you're just not going to find it. You're not going to find that kind of evidence for very many people at all from antiquity. Jesus was a wandering sage and "healer"; he wouldn't have issued coins with his portrait on them or erected any memorial stelai. But the evidence that he existed is actually better than we would expect. The reasonable conclusion is that he did, in fact, exist.

Does it follow that every detail of the gospels is accurate? Of course not.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I'm having trouble seeing Jesus as an alien implant in Mary's womb, with no human ancestry.

That seems to put you in Augustine's camp, believing that it's sexual intercourse that causes original sin. Frankly, though, I think Augustine was a disturbed individual. Does the Bible actually say anything at all about Jesus' sinlessness being the result of his virgin conception?
Most of Agustine's views on sexuality is bunk (although I realize you think it's more then just Agustine). If there was any cross he carried I'd say it was his horniness.

Interestingly enough Eastern Orthodox that I've talked to believe Christ assumed his humanity from Mary and that any change in Mary's humanity would somehow affect Christ. We don't share this view.

On a side note it's important to make clear that Mary needed salvation just like the rest of us..... but ......Mary was saved before she sinned, while we are saved after we have sinned. It is like one person being saved from a disease by an inoculation to prevent it... and another person being saved from the same disease by an operation to cure it...
 

Smoke

Done here.
Most of Agustine's views on sexuality is bunk (although I realize you think it's more then just Agustine). If there was any cross he carried I'd say it was his horniness.
:D I think you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, a lot of people over the centuries have adopted Augustine's views.

Interestingly enough Eastern Orthodox that I've talked to believe Christ assumed his humanity from Mary and that any change in Mary's humanity would somehow affect Christ. We don't share this view.
They might have been a little confused. Orthodox Christians don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary because they don't share the Roman Catholic view of original sin. For the Orthodox, original sin doesn't mean you're born guilty or born sinful; it just means you have a propensity to sin. Orthodox, like Catholics, believe that Mary was without sin. I think most Orthodox would agree that if the Catholic doctrine of original sin were correct, the Immaculate Conception would also be correct.

The dogmatically-defined title of Mary, Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), by itself, could possibly be construed as being in agreement with Hope's suggestion that Jesus need not have even inherited any genetic material from Mary. However, (I think) that's plainly not the Orthodox view, and in my view the title Meter tou Theou (Mother of God) clearly implies that she was Jesus' actual mother, and not merely the portal by which he entered the world.

Of course, the ancients didn't have any understanding of genetics, or even a very accurate idea of reproduction, so who knows what they meant?

On a side note it's important to make clear that Mary needed salvation just like the rest of us..... but ......Mary was saved before she sinned, while we are saved after we have sinned. It is like one person being saved from a disease by an inoculation to prevent it... and another person being saved from the same disease by an operation to cure it...
(Putting on my Orthodox hat.) I would prefer to say that Mary was in need of theosis, in that although she was without sin, she still needed to be united to the divine nature.

What I'm having a problem with is the idea that there's some natural or mechanistic process by which fathers (as opposed to mothers) or sexual intercourse imparts original sin to the offspring. It's not scriptural, it's not -- Augustine and his followers aside -- patristic, and it seems like a fatuous and superstitious idea. I mean, it's one thing to believe in miracles, and another to make up "laws" to explain the miracles, isn't it?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
:D I think you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, a lot of people over the centuries have adopted Augustine's views.
Well, as you know, Agustine isn't the Catholic Church. We take what we agree with and recognize where he was weirdo.
They might have been a little confused. Orthodox Christians don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary because they don't share the Roman Catholic view of original sin. For the Orthodox, original sin doesn't mean you're born guilty or born sinful; it just means you have a propensity to sin. Orthodox, like Catholics, believe that Mary was without sin. I think most Orthodox would agree that if the Catholic doctrine of original sin were correct, the Immaculate Conception would also be correct.

The dogmatically-defined title of Mary, Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), by itself, could possibly be construed as being in agreement with Hope's suggestion that Jesus need not have even inherited any genetic material from Mary. However, (I think) that's plainly not the Orthodox view, and in my view the title Meter tou Theou (Mother of God) clearly implies that she was Jesus' actual mother, and not merely the portal by which he entered the world.

Of course, the ancients didn't have any understanding of genetics, or even a very accurate idea of reproduction, so who knows what they meant?
I was aware they didn't believe in IC, but I've never understood why in EO theology Mary should have been born with the inclination to sin (corrupt nature) in order for it all to work. That Jesus took our flesh to cleanse it. If He took flesh that had no corruption in it (IC), He wouldn't be cleansing it.

We just believe He had already cleansed it prior to the Incarnation. Which is why:

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with the gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace. CCC

You following me?
(Putting on my Orthodox hat.) I would prefer to say that Mary was in need of theosis, in that although she was without sin, she still needed to be united to the divine nature.

What I'm having a problem with is the idea that there's some natural or mechanistic process by which fathers (as opposed to mothers) or sexual intercourse imparts original sin to the offspring. It's not scriptural, it's not -- Augustine and his followers aside -- patristic, and it seems like a fatuous and superstitious idea. I mean, it's one thing to believe in miracles, and another to make up "laws" to explain the miracles, isn't it?
Yup...I'd like to know this too. Although I would think this would be more of a problem for EO's (refer to above) since it's been my understanding that the sinful nature was transmitted both biologically and spiritually. We don't believe that. For us it's spiritually only.

If you understood differently I'd have to take your word for it since this was brought to my attention by No*s.
 

Hope

Princesinha
I'm having trouble seeing Jesus as an alien implant in Mary's womb, with no human ancestry.

"Alien implant"? Unless you think being God makes you an alien. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your use of the word. :shrug:

Yeah, the human ancestry part does make one think. Like I said, Scripture doesn't shed enough light on this. I merely have my conjectures and the conjectures I've heard of others. How much or what kind of genetic material Jesus may have inherited from Mary is a mystery.

That seems to put you in Augustine's camp, believing that it's sexual intercourse that causes original sin. Frankly, though, I think Augustine was a disturbed individual. Does the Bible actually say anything at all about Jesus' sinlessness being the result of his virgin conception?

While I think Augustine was actually a rather brilliant theologian (who, like any of us, had his struggles, and didn't get everything right), I don't agree that it is sexual intercourse itself that causes sin. I don't think that's why Mary had to be a virgin. The Bible doesn't blatantly connect the dots on the relationship between Jesus' virgin conception and His sinlessness----I never claimed it did. However, there seems to be no other plausible explanation as to why Mary had to be a virgin.
 
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