The Virgin Mary - or was she?

[Smoke]

How about to insure that there was no doubt about Joseph not being His father.

Well, seriously, do you really think there was no doubt?

I mean, assuming that Mary told all her friends and neighbors she was a virgin, and assuming that Joseph backed her up, do you really think all the friends and neighbors believed it? Would you believe it? Matthew says that the neighbors called him "the carpenter's son." (Mark says, "the carpenter, the son of Mary," and I've heard some people claim that this, in conjunction with Pharisees' retort to Jesus, "We were not born of fornication" indicates that the neighbors thought Jesus was a *******. But I think it's more likely they just thought he was Joseph's son.)

 

[madhatter85]

You know, in reality.... Chrisitianity is based upon a woman claiming to be a virgin and "REALLY stuck to her story"

 

[Quiddity]

Well, seriously, do you really think there was no doubt?

I mean, assuming that Mary told all her friends and neighbors she was a virgin, and assuming that Joseph backed her up, do you really think all the friends and neighbors believed it? Would you believe it? Matthew says that the neighbors called him "the carpenter's son." (Mark says, "the carpenter, the son of Mary," and I've heard some people claim that this, in conjunction with Pharisees' retort to Jesus, "We were not born of fornication" indicates that the neighbors thought Jesus was a *******. But I think it's more likely they just thought he was Joseph's son.)

I don't. It would have made perfect sense that they consider him "the carpenter's son". The alternatives would have resulted in some real problems. That Mary was an adulterer? You know people and there gossip.

 

[Hope]

Well, seriously, do you really think there was no doubt?

I mean, assuming that Mary told all her friends and neighbors she was a virgin, and assuming that Joseph backed her up, do you really think all the friends and neighbors believed it? Would you believe it? Matthew says that the neighbors called him "the carpenter's son." (Mark says, "the carpenter, the son of Mary," and I've heard some people claim that this, in conjunction with Pharisees' retort to Jesus, "We were not born of fornication" indicates that the neighbors thought Jesus was a *******. But I think it's more likely they just thought he was Joseph's son.)

The importance of there being no doubt was not for the benefit of others, but for the benefit of Jesus Himself. It doesn't really matter what everyone else thought.

 

[Quiddity]

The importance of there being no doubt was not for the benefit of others, but for the benefit of Jesus Himself. It doesn't really matter what everyone else thought.

Actually I think it does matter. Can you imagine if there was no Joseph in the picture? What do you think would happen?

 

[Smoke]

The importance of there being no doubt was not for the benefit of others, but for the benefit of Jesus Himself. It doesn't really matter what everyone else thought.

Jesus, being God, would have known, wouldn't he? Surely he didn't need a miraculous sign to know where he came from.

 

[Hope]

Actually I think it does matter. Can you imagine if there was no Joseph in the picture? What do you think would happen?

Of course it matters that Joseph was in the picture. I didn't mean to imply that he himself was totally unnecessary just because he didn't participate in Jesus' conception. I think you misunderstood me.

 

[Quiddity]

Of course it matters that Joseph was in the picture. I didn't mean to imply that he himself was totally unnecessary just because he didn't participate in Jesus' conception. I think you misunderstood me.

Ok...

 

[kadzbiz]

OK, please list all of this obvious "hard evidence" of the existence of a man named Jesus who fit the stories of the Bible. It should be easy.

There's no hard evidence of my great x 7 grandfather either, but I know he existed.

If you think it, it must be true.

What the heck is that supposed to mean? On the other hand, perhaps, though I am without belief in God, He has touched me and giving me such ability?

....I don't agree that it is sexual intercourse itself that causes sin. ......

Indeed, how can it? Man's mind causes sin.

Jesus, being God, would have known, wouldn't he? Surely he didn't need a miraculous sign to know where he came from.

Good question. Can someone tell me when DID Jesus become aware of who he actually was?

Of course it matters that Joseph was in the picture. I didn't mean to imply that he himself was totally unnecessary just because he didn't participate in Jesus' conception. I think you misunderstood me.

Can we be sure that Joseph DIDN'T actually have any role in it?

 

[Smoke]

Can we be sure that Joseph DIDN'T actually have any role in it?

Well, there's always Panthera. (See Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

 

[kadzbiz]

Well, there's always Panthera. (See Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.)

Thankyou. That was very interesting. I'd never heard of that before.

 

[crystalonyx]

"But the evidence that he existed is actually better than we would expect"

Hardly, not one historian contemporary to the supposed time of Jesus ever wrote of such a man. The 2 very generic references by JOsephus, who wrote LATER on, are considered to be forgeries.
I would expect at least some reference to the man besides the gospel accounts, which are obvious fiction taken from previous mythology.

Also, Paul acts like he never heard of such a man, never referring to his teachings. His "Christ" was spiritual only.

 

[Smoke]

"But the evidence that he existed is actually better than we would expect"

Hardly, not one historian contemporary to the supposed time of Jesus ever wrote of such a man.

You might be surprised how many well-known people in antiquity we have no contemporary written record of.

The 2 very generic references by JOsephus, who wrote LATER on, are considered to be forgeries.

There are, as you say, two references. One is generally considered a forgery, the other is not.

I would expect at least some reference to the man besides the gospel accounts

Why? Have you noticed an extensive Greek or Latin literature about itinerant Jewish sages?

Also, Paul acts like he never heard of such a man, never referring to his teachings. His "Christ" was spiritual only.

In general, I agree. However, his reference to James as Jesus' brother is very specific and very concrete.

 

[Francine]

Also, Paul acts like he never heard of such a man, never referring to his teachings. His "Christ" was spiritual only.

No, Paul believed that Christ had risen from the dead, bodily:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[kai]

now this is a genuine question , when in the bible does it say that jesus was born of a virgin, now this is important to me , whats the earliest writng that states that , because we have jesus the son of a carpenter etc etc , i dont think that mary would have got away without a stoning . so did this come after, was this asked of him by the sanhedrin or pilot, i know some of you know the new testement well so i need the first instance . if this was widely accepted in ist century judea i would be surprised ,

 

[gnostic]

There were other people that suddenly appeared on the Earth that weren't of Adam & Eve though.

who? i don't know of whom you speak

Cain's wife for a start.

Sorry, kadzbiz. There are number of references in Jewish literature where Cain and Seth married their own sisters.

It may not say so in the bible, but there is a large body of Jewish oral tradition, which was later recorded, that incest marriages were practised early on in the genealogy. Even Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob married first-cousins or nieces.

 

[Francine]

It may not say so in the bible, but there is a large body of Jewish oral tradition, which was later recorded, that incest marriages were practised early on in the genealogy. Even Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob married first-cousins or nieces.

Abraham married his half-sister. Isaac and Jacob married their first cousins. Nieces and half-sisters, you can't marry under the Law of Moses, but there's no biblical injunction against first cousins getting hitched, and God even commanded Zelophehad's five daughters to hook up with their cousins. The Catholic Church doesn't let its members do it, however.

 

[kai]

now this is a genuine question , when in the bible does it say that jesus was born of a virgin, now this is important to me , whats the earliest writng that states that , because we have jesus the son of a carpenter etc etc , i dont think that mary would have got away without a stoning . so did this come after, was this asked of him by the sanhedrin or pilot, i know some of you know the new testement well so i need the first instance . if this was widely accepted in ist century judea i would be surprised , sorry had to bump it

 

[Francine]

now this is a genuine question , when in the bible does it say that jesus was born of a virgin

Matthew 1

[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

[19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Matthew 1

[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

[19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Dammit Francine, stop using scripture to prove your points, it's...it's...unseemly.