The Virgin Mary - or was she?

[zenzero]

friends,
Does that mean that Jesus was the son of the holy ghost and that Joseph was not his father?
Love & rgds

 

[kadzbiz]

Sorry, kadzbiz. There are number of references in Jewish literature where Cain and Seth married their own sisters.......

No wonder the world is so ................ well, you know what.

Dammit Francine, stop using scripture to prove your points, it's...it's...unseemly.

What option does she have Sandy?

 

[gnostic]

No wonder the world is so ................ well, you know what.

Here, is from the Book of Jubilees (Book of Jubilees: The Book of Jubilees: Cain and Abel (iv. 1-12)).

Cain and Abel (iv. 1-12; cf. Gen. iv.).

IV. And in the third week in the second jubilee she gave birth to Cain, and in the fourth she gave birth to Abel, and in the fifth she gave birth to her daughter’ Âwân.

8. And in the sixth week he begat his daughter ’Azûrâ. 9. And Cain took ’Âwân his sister to be his wife and she bare him Enoch 3 at the close of the fourth jubilee.

10. And Adam knew Eve his wife and she bare yet nine sons. 4 11. And in the fifth week of the fifth jubilee Seth took ’Azûrâ his sister to be his wife, and in the fourth (year of the sixth week) she bare him Enos.

If there were no other people in the beginning, other than Adam and Eve, then logically Cain and Seth would have to marry their sisters. (Someone here, wrote that Cain slept with his mother Eve, but I couldn't find in reference to that regards.)
According to the Haggada (Legend of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 3), Cain wasn't Adam's son, but the product Eve union with Satan, disguised as a serpent. According to this, Cain murdered more than just because God love Abel's offer better. Cain was jealous because of desire Abel's twin sister. Cain was supposed to marry his own twin sister, but he preferred Abel's twin.

But this was not the only cause of Cain's hatred toward Abel. Partly love for a woman brought about the crime. To ensure the propagation of the human race, a girl, destined to be his wife, was born together with each of the sons of Adam. Abel's twin sister was of exquisite beauty, and Cain desired her. Therefore he was constantly brooding over ways and means of ridding himself of his brother.

Their sisters are unnamed here.

The Haggada were written largely around the same time as the Talmud and Mishna.

From Hebraic Literature Edited by Maurice Harris (1901), extracted from the Talmud and Midrash:

...during the eighth Cain and a twin sister were born (Abel and his twin sister were born after the Fall, says the Tosephoth)....

Cain had robbed the twin sister of Abel, and therefore his soul passed into Jethro. Moses was possessed by the soul of Abel, and therefore Jethro gave his daughter to Moses.

It is only in the Book of Jubilees, where I can find names to Adam's daughters.

 

[kai]

Matthew 1

[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

[19] Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

[20] But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

[22] Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

[23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

ok thank you , just one more question why wasnt he called emmanuel?

 

[kadzbiz]

.....Cain murdered more than just because God love Abel's offer better. Cain was jealous because of desire Abel's twin sister. Cain was supposed to marry his own twin sister, but he preferred Abel's twin.......

Well that's a bit better explanation that just killing him over the offer.

 

[Angelfire]

But remember, she was not married to Joseph when Jesus was born, and there are people out there who actually believe in abstinence until marriage. Not quite as many people -- by a longshot -- believe in abstinence after marriage. Why on earth would God expect a married woman to remain a virgin? I don't get it.

How do we know she was not married to Joseph when Jesus was Born? We know she
conceived before, but I hardley think her family would have let her go off pregnant
and with a man she was not married to. Perhaps I missed something, show me where
it says she was not married when Jesus was born.

Thanks,


peace

 

[Smoke]

How do we know she was not married to Joseph when Jesus was Born? We know she
conceived before, but I hardley think her family would have let her go off pregnant
and with a man she was not married to. Perhaps I missed something, show me where
it says she was not married when Jesus was born.

They were betrothed but not married:

Luke 2.5(ASV): to enrol himself with Mary, who was betrothed to him, being great with child. (Greek: απογραψασθαι συν μαριαμ τη μεμνηστευμενη αυτω γυναικι ουση εγκυ&#969

Granted that it would have been unusual for Joseph and Mary not to have sexual relations in marriage, they wouldn't have been unique in that respect -- and the whole Virgin Mother thing is an indication that their family life wouldn't have been exactly normal.

 

[gnostic]

The thing is that the half-brothers and half-sisters were following Mary, and Mary was following Jesus. If these siblings were not Mary's children, then why would they follow her? If these children were lot older than Jesus, just as Joseph was older than Mary, then they wouldn't be following Mary during Jesus' ministry.

The absence of any mention of Joseph's children from previous marriage in the gospels during Mary's pregnancy and Jesus' birth is most telling.

 

[tomspug]

You know, it's funny how we bring up these arguments in the 21st century, as if no one ever brought it up when the books were first written. I'm not disregarding your argument, but I think it's a valid point. Israel is not a large nation. I would think that the religion really wouldn't have gotten anywhere in the first place if it held to wild facts that could have easily been disproven by the gospel writer's contemporaries.

 

[kai]

ok thank you , just one more question why wasnt he called emmanuel?

can anyone answer this for me?

 

[Smoke]

The thing is that the half-brothers and half-sisters were following Mary, and Mary was following Jesus. If these siblings were not Mary's children, then why would they follow her? If these children were lot older than Jesus, just as Joseph was older than Mary, then they wouldn't be following Mary during Jesus' ministry.

The gospels don't say that they followed Mary, or indeed that Mary followed Jesus.

The absence of any mention of Joseph's children from previous marriage in the gospels during Mary's pregnancy and Jesus' birth is most telling.

Why?

 

[blackout]

ok thank you , just one more question why wasnt he called emmanuel?

the meaning of "emmanuel" that I was always given to understand is
"god with us".

so emmanuel would be more of a descriptive title than a "name"?

I don't understand why people choose "Jesus" over "Y'shua".
Jesus obviously wasn't his name at all.
Not even close.

 

[kai]

the meaning of "emmanuel" that I was always given to understand is
"god with us".

so emmanuel would be more of a descriptive title than a "name"?

I don't understand why people choose "Jesus" over "Y'shua".
Jesus obviously wasn't his name at all.
Not even close.

its also a name , like yeshua which means "he will save which" could be more of a descriptive title than a name. so it clearly says he will be called emmanuel , why wasnt he.

 

[gnostic]

I know of the prophecy in regarding to emmanuel, but I don't know why Jesus was never given this name.

I've never understood this too.

 

[kai]

I've never understood this too.

not that i am prmenantly looking for loopholes but prophecy has to be fulfilled and they go and call the guy but the wrong name .

its like we are all waiting for the birth of the tom and we call him john

 

[blackout]

not that i am prmenantly looking for loopholes but prophecy has to be fulfilled and they go and call the guy but the wrong name .

its like we are all waiting for the birth of the tom and we call him john

yeah. I don't know.

 

[crystalonyx]

You know, it's funny how we bring up these arguments in the 21st century, as if no one ever brought it up when the books were first written. I'm not disregarding your argument, but I think it's a valid point. Israel is not a large nation. I would think that the religion really wouldn't have gotten anywhere in the first place if it held to wild facts that could have easily been disproven by the gospel writer's contemporaries.

Strange post. since no where in recorded history is there any record of this event, or for that matter the entire life of the supposed Jesus. How can you even distiguish it from the many other similar religiious fairy tales that came before it?

 

[kai]

Strange post. since no where in recorded history is there any record of this event, or for that matter the entire life of the supposed Jesus. How can you even distiguish it from the many other similar religiious fairy tales that came before it?

yes i agree , and it all boils down to the fact that not all jews agreed he was this emmanuel .

 

[kadzbiz]

The doco which got me started on this thread is addressed here. I watched the second part last night. This genealogist is quite experienced having solved many family tree issues over the decades. It refers to what was most likely to be the case with the family of Jesus.

 

[kai]

The doco which got me started on this thread is addressed here. I watched the second part last night. This genealogist is quite experienced having solved many family tree issues over the decades. It refers to what was most likely to be the case with the family of Jesus.

very interesting but bizare