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The warmongers at the European Union

Foxfyre

Member

It's undeniable that at the European Union there are people who wants us Europeans to be at war against Russia.

They are technocratic élites who eat caviar and sip champagne (the expensive one) and couldn't care less about peace.
They just want war, war, war.
They demand that other people fight, while they remain warm, safe and sound in their luxurious mansions.

I would like to tell these guys: you don't belong in the EU. You don't even belong in Europe.
Your words insult and deface the Constitutions of Germany, Italy and many other countries of the Union, which condemn and repudiate war and the acts of war like sending weapons meant to attack other countries.


And the patriots of Europe will not rest until these people abandon the EU institutions.
The USA has its warmongers too and the vast majority of them seem to be entrenched in the Democrat Party now. In his first term President Trump's efforts and policies gave us the closest thing to world peace that any of us have ever experienced. Especially those of us who have been around for a very long time now. He hopes to return to world peace in his second term too and to accomplish that via diplomacy rather than via bullets and bombs. I say power to him.

And those in the industrial military complex or who otherwise profit from war on both sides of the Atlantic will no doubt fight him tooth and nail the whole time.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
You should point this out to Putin..
This is the trouble with us mortals .. we get a fixation on political leaders, and then the
whole nation becomes dehumanized .. the enemy. :rolleyes:

..and of course, you can't talk to these "evil people" .. just plot against them.

I suppose the vast majority of Brits have been conditioned by mainstream media, and
accept the "status quo".
I think Europe has to rethink its position in the world .. I don't think that Trump will pull out of
NATO, but intends a smaller role, for sure.

Same goes for the UN .. and of course climate change.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
This is the trouble with us mortals .. we get a fixation on political leaders, and then the
whole nation becomes dehumanized .. the enemy. :rolleyes:

..and of course, you can't talk to these "evil people" .. just plot against them.

I suppose the vast majority of Brits have been conditioned by mainstream media, and
accept the "status quo".
I think Europe has to rethink its position in the world .. I don't think that Trump will pull out of
NATO, but intends a smaller role, for sure.

Same goes for the UN .. and of course climate change.
Leaders are just that, but it is not difficult to recognise obvious liars and/or murderous thugs, even if they hide behind their status. Putin when gone will be seen for what he was and currently is. And not what he seems to want to be remembered for - a great leader and doing great things for his nation. He messed that up when he decided to attack Ukraine and didn't admit his mistake. He uses weapons from other countries, threatens to use nuclear weapons, and thinks it will turn out well for Russia? The supreme optimist - especially if he does actually use a nuke.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Take a step back and think .. who presents the greatest threat to the world, a nation with
around 800 military bases all over the world, or a nation with bases only in their own nation?

Would it be acceptable for Russia to form an alliance with say Mexico, and put their bases there?
Of course not!
I personally wouldn't care if Russia created bases around the world, just as I don't care that the US does.

And just because you have a lot of bases doesn't automatically mean you are a threat, it depends on how you make use of them. All these countries have nuclear weapons which is more than enough of a threat to the rest of the world, so why does it matter how many bases they have?

Similarly, it is not acceptable for Russia to have Nato bases in what was formerly Greater Russia.
How dare Putin challenge NATO?
..so nothing to do with "evil Russia" or democracy .. just simple common sense .. survival.
What does it matter what Russia think about FORMER Russian countries, they are not part of Russia anymore!!! Are these countries supposed to be "slaves" of Russia forever or what?

Sweden and Norway and a lot of England were part of Denmark in the past, so should we be allowed to decide what they should or shouldn't do forever?

There is no survival scenario here, Russia wasn't threatened even remotely. Why do you think the US has been criticizing EU countries for lack of paying to NATO? Because most of the EU hasn't cared to spend a whole lot on the military and if you don't do that, then clearly you have no intention of going to war.

I don't know which country you are from, but EU countries are not warmongering countries, if you have lived in any of them you would know that.

Why do people think they have to bow and be on the knees for a maniac like Putin I just don't get it, he is a warmongering murderer and psychopath who doesn't care about anyone other than himself.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I am a pacifist.
I support peace.

I want Ukraine to join the EU and to be at peace with Russian.

If I were pro-Russia, I would want Ukraine to be conquered by Russia.
Well, you sure don't sound like one.

And how do you suppose that Ukraine gets peace with Russia while not losing any territory?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Leaders are just that, but it is not difficult to recognise obvious liars and/or murderous thugs, even if they hide behind their status. Putin when gone will be seen for what he was and currently is. And not what he seems to want to be remembered for - a great leader and doing great things for his nation. He messed that up when he decided to attack Ukraine and didn't admit his mistake. He uses weapons from other countries, threatens to use nuclear weapons, and thinks it will turn out well for Russia? The supreme optimist - especially if he does actually use a nuke.
What a blinkered reply..

"it is not difficult to recognise obvious liars" ..
No, it isn't .. and that is not limited to Putin or Russians.

"He messed that up when he decided to attack Ukraine" ..
What people want us to believe, is that it was unprovoked .. and merely a "land grab".
That is completely false. The West arrogantly seem to think they are the only ones that matter.
They are the only ones with democratic govt. .. that Capitalism is the only truth etc. etc.
What I see, is NATO expanding eastwards .. with Russia being considered "the enemy" BEFORE
they invaded Ukraine. We were intentionally led to believe that Putin wants to conquer Europe.
NO ! It's the arrogance of the West, that is used to "getting its way", and employing military force
to ensure it. That's idiotic. We didn't attack Russia in the Cold War, but now it seems that
Biden & Starmer thinks "who cares if there is a nuclear war?" escalating and provoking Russia
through misguided ideology. :expressionless:

"He uses weapons from other countries"
Oh boy! .. and Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. :rolleyes:
Missiles that have to be programmed by US/UK/France are NOT "other countries"??
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
What does it matter what Russia think about FORMER Russian countries, they are not part of Russia anymore!!! Are these countries supposed to be "slaves" of Russia forever or what?
How childish .. "we won the Cold War, so there!"

There is no survival scenario here, Russia wasn't threatened even remotely..
That's nonsense. When the Berlin wall fell, and the Warsaw pact collapsed along with it, Russia
asked for assurance that NATO would not expand eastwards. The assurance was given.
It expanded eastwards .. NATO did not have to accept eastern European countries to join, just
because they were accepted into the EU .. Russia was disregarded, promises broken.

Russia was denied being a member of NATO .. well, they are "the enemy" aren't they??
The Minsk agreement was that Ukraine would remain neutral .. but NATO promised Ukraine
that they could join at some point soon. Who cares what Russia thinks? Who cares about treaties?

If I lived in Russia, I wouldn't feel comfortable as being NATO's "enemy", and military bases
being set up in Ukraine.
No .. it's a conflict of political ideologies .. wealth and power.

Why do you think the US has been criticizing EU countries for lack of paying to NATO? Because most of the EU hasn't cared to spend a whole lot on the military and if you don't do that, then clearly you have no intention of going to war.
That's also nonsense. The same sort of ideology that Thatcher used with her "poll tax".

I don't know which country you are from, but EU countries are not warmongering countries, if you have lived in any of them you would know that.
I live in the UK .. and am aware of its history, thankyou.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
And how do you suppose that Ukraine gets peace with Russia while not losing any territory?
..is that your concern? Land?
Is that Starmer's concern, .. land?

Does he not care if we, as a NATO country, get embrolied in a war where millions of Brits get exterminated? Is he playing "Russian roulette" here in the UK?

He should mind his own business .. we are no longer the British Empire .. and Trump is
on his way.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
..is that your concern? Land?
Is that Starmer's concern, .. land?

Does he not care if we, as a NATO country, get embrolied in a war where millions of Brits get exterminated? Is he playing "Russian roulette" here in the UK?

He should mind his own business .. we are no longer the British Empire .. and Trump is
on his way.
It is about fairness and helping people, if the Russians want to live under this psychopath then let them, but trying to blame NATO and the US for having caused this, is absurd at best.

What if every ally had said the same during WW2 as you do now? Do we want to live in a world where people like this can do whatever they feel like?

No one and I mean no one should bend over for these maniacs let alone praise them as if they have done nothing wrong.

And surely he (Zelensky I assume you mean?) cares about this war and it escalating, but what do you want him to do? their country including civilians is getting killed and they are fighting a much stronger opponent that they clearly can't win against on their own. But you can't blame him for that when it was Russia that attacked them. It would be like blaming the Polish people for starting WW2.

So your solution is just to allow Russia, US and China or any big countries to just invade other countries as they please? Why should we do anything if any of them decided to do such a thing?
 

Wirey

Fartist
My following post is for all the war-mongers who are supporting Zelensky:
Wake up!

Had Argentina didn't pull out its application to join BRICS - we might have seen a new conflict between the Brits and Brics (as trade and investment has been weaponized).

Yes! I am talking about the 'Falklands war'.

I don't know enough about that history but why Britain is holding on to those islands when clearly it should be with Argentina? Those islands are in close proximity to Argentina and were given to them by Spain. Is that not so?

Similarly - there are some hot spots around the world. We, as a nation - are known to support strange things sometimes due our alliance with one side. It is time to break free from that and support what is right and what is wrong.

If Putin has some historical claim to parts of Ukraine then we should listen to him and not dismiss it completely. Listen to his interview with Tucker Carlson.

To make a decision - we MUST listen to the people of the disputed lands. What do those people want? Do they want to be with Russia? Instead the war-mongers are with Zelensky and what Zelensky wants!:rolleyes:

Here is the interview. Listen carefully.
You will realize how stupid your position is to support Zelensky.


Trump is listening... Trump has listened. Trump will solve.
Wait for it.;)
That's called revanchism, and it's garbage. The right to self-determination is the hallmark of democracy. The Ukrainians have spoken. F%^$ Putin.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I personally wouldn't care if Russia created bases around the world, just as I don't care that the US does.

And just because you have a lot of bases doesn't automatically mean you are a threat, it depends on how you make use of them. All these countries have nuclear weapons which is more than enough of a threat to the rest of the world, so why does it matter how many bases they have?

It seems that if one is claiming that one is a larger threat to world peace than the other, the size, scope, and disposition of their military forces should be good evidence to show that, one way or the other.

I would also add that the locations and regions they're involved with might also play a part. If the US or Russia were dealing with an issue on their borders or in their own "backyard," so to speak, that should be viewed far differently than military incursions far, far away from their home territory.

For example, if Canada's government decided to change up and wanted to form an alliance with China and Russia, the US might very well view Canada as a grave threat to US national security. I can't imagine very many Americans thinking otherwise. When viewed that way, it should be easy to see why Russia would be worried about Ukraine forming an alliance with the West.


What does it matter what Russia think about FORMER Russian countries, they are not part of Russia anymore!!! Are these countries supposed to be "slaves" of Russia forever or what?

These are countries which still border Russia, so whatever a bordering country does is a legitimate national security concern. Just as the U.S. border with Mexico was a significant issue in this past election (and many elections before that).

The U.S. has an interest in keeping an eye on Mexico and our border with that country, just as the Russians have a similar interest regarding countries which border them.

It doesn't mean that they're slaves of anyone, but if they make choices which might be construed as threatening, then it could lead to trouble.

Sweden and Norway and a lot of England were part of Denmark in the past, so should we be allowed to decide what they should or shouldn't do forever?

No, the U.S. will decide for all of you. ;)

It is kind of fascinating when one considers how often the lands of this world have changed hands (and names, too). I recall speaking with a Native American activist who not only believed that all of the Americas should be reclaimed by the Native tribes, but that the Native Americans should also get large chunks of Europe as "punitive damages" for what Europeans did to the Native Americans. So, the land you're on right now may someday be under Apache control.

There is no survival scenario here, Russia wasn't threatened even remotely. Why do you think the US has been criticizing EU countries for lack of paying to NATO? Because most of the EU hasn't cared to spend a whole lot on the military and if you don't do that, then clearly you have no intention of going to war.

I don't know which country you are from, but EU countries are not warmongering countries, if you have lived in any of them you would know that.

The EU countries who are also members of NATO have participated in various military actions along with the U.S. They're part of the U.S.-led coalition and ostensibly leave the responsibilities of warmongering to the US leadership. That's why the U.S. President is often called the "leader of the free world." Before the creation of NATO, the nations of Europe were very much warmongering countries. The World Wars devastated that continent, and it was all of their own making.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Russia wasn't threatened even remotely." I don't think anyone can say that with any certainty. From my own experience, I have observed that what the U.S. or other Western nations perceive as "threatening" may not necessarily be viewed that way by other parts of the world - and vice versa.

Also, I would note that it may not really be about threats as much as it's about provocation. Even though a threat and a provocation are different things, they can often evoke the same kind of (hostile) response.

Why do people think they have to bow and be on the knees for a maniac like Putin I just don't get it, he is a warmongering murderer and psychopath who doesn't care about anyone other than himself.

Really, isn't that kind of a melodramatic way of putting it? "Bow and be on the knees"? I hear this a lot. "Appeasement" gets mentioned a lot, as well as the notion that "giving in" to Putin will be seen as a sign of weakness on our part and will only encourage him to invade even more countries.

At least for the countries of the NATO alliance, they are in the stronger position, so bargaining from strength can hardly be seen as "bowing" or being on its knees. On the other hand, we're in kind of a standoff and the greater danger is in the potential for escalation. So, if nothing else, I think Western governments should approach this thing in a level-headed, rational, and practical way. Putin might very well be a maniac, but that doesn't mean that we have to become maniacs ourselves.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
It seems that if one is claiming that one is a larger threat to world peace than the other, the size, scope, and disposition of their military forces should be good evidence to show that, one way or the other.

I would also add that the locations and regions they're involved with might also play a part. If the US or Russia were dealing with an issue on their borders or in their own "backyard," so to speak, that should be viewed far differently than military incursions far, far away from their home territory.

For example, if Canada's government decided to change up and wanted to form an alliance with China and Russia, the US might very well view Canada as a grave threat to US national security. I can't imagine very many Americans thinking otherwise. When viewed that way, it should be easy to see why Russia would be worried about Ukraine forming an alliance with the West.
The US and Russia already technically border each other around Alaska.

But sure countries that don't like each other are worried. But it is no different from any other country. The US and Russia have huge militaries, yet you don't see small countries whine, even though they are at a much larger threat than they are.

And sure if Canada was supposed to do something like that the US should be worried, but it might also encourage them to treat others better. Having a world where we accept that big countries have the privilege to bully small ones shouldn't be accepted.

Take Germany, France and England they have been in a lot of conflicts, yet now they are allies.

So don't get me wrong Russia probably doesn't like that Ukraine turned to the West, but can you blame them? Russia does little to help their neighbours, so no wonder no one likes them. Every country around them is either forced to be loyal or are "abused" by them. Just look at what is going on in Georgia, does anyone think that Russia is not involved?

The EU countries who are also members of NATO have participated in various military actions along with the U.S. They're part of the U.S.-led coalition and ostensibly leave the responsibilities of warmongering to the US leadership. That's why the U.S. President is often called the "leader of the free world." Before the creation of NATO, the nations of Europe were very much warmongering countries. The World Wars devastated that continent, and it was all of their own making.
Yes, but it was also different times.

People looked at the world differently, so you can't really compare it.

Also, I would note that it may not really be about threats as much as it's about provocation. Even though a threat and a provocation are different things, they can often evoke the same kind of (hostile) response.
And even if that is the case, that doesn't allow them to invade. Don't get me wrong, the US with EU allies have done bad things and that is not ok either.

Really, isn't that kind of a melodramatic way of putting it? "Bow and be on the knees"? I hear this a lot. "Appeasement" gets mentioned a lot, as well as the notion that "giving in" to Putin will be seen as a sign of weakness on our part and will only encourage him to invade even more countries.

At least for the countries of the NATO alliance, they are in the stronger position, so bargaining from strength can hardly be seen as "bowing" or being on its knees. On the other hand, we're in kind of a standoff and the greater danger is in the potential for escalation. So, if nothing else, I think Western governments should approach this thing in a level-headed, rational, and practical way. Putin might very well be a maniac, but that doesn't mean that we have to become maniacs ourselves.
This is exactly what Putin wants and if we give in to him he has won and gotten away with it and then he will do it once again to another country that he believes is a "threat".

I'm not talking about countries being on their knees, I'm talking about individual people like some here on the forum seem to express. That what he is doing is fully acceptable and to almost be admired.

Obviously, we are not going to be maniacs, but also we can't simply look on and just give Ukraine the absolute minimum required to defend itself, lots of people including Russians are getting killed here and Putin doesn't care how many get killed, they are just numbers to him.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
It is about fairness and helping people..
Give me a break.. :rolleyes:

It's about wealth and power .. and who has it.

..if the Russians want to live under this psychopath then let them..
Hmm .. when Ukraine was part of USSR, they were all "evil Russians" .. and now a couple
of decades later they are European citizens ( not! )

but trying to blame NATO and the US for having caused this, is absurd at best.
I'm not trying .. you need to show me why it is acceptable for Russia to have US military bases
on its border .. but not for the US to have Russian military bases on its border. (or on Cuba)

Do we want to live in a world where people like this can do whatever they feel like?
No. ..which is why we need to honor treaties, and respect each other.

..their country including civilians is getting killed and they are fighting a much stronger opponent that they clearly can't win against on their own. But you can't blame him for that when it was Russia that attacked them..
That is how it appears from a western viewpoint .. but we are all biased .. media outlets are
biased, depending on where you are sitting. Don't be spoon fed by Fox news or CNN, BBC .. seek
knowledge .. war between nuclear powers is serious, for goodness sake.

So your solution is just to allow Russia, US and China or any big countries to just invade other countries as they please?
No .. the solution is diplomacy .. neutral countries are more likely to be able to help with that.
..not nations that have "interests" in defeating Russia .. like NATO. If Ukraine had remained neutral,
Russia would have had no reason to invade .. to overthrow Zelensky.

This conflict could have been solved in March 2022 through diplomacy .. but Boris said no .. told Zelensky that he had the full support of NATO .. bla bla :rolleyes:
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
This is exactly what Putin wants and if we give in to him he has won and gotten away with it and then he will do it once again to another country that he believes is a "threat".
That seems to be what the US is doing in the Middle East .. and that is nowhere near the US. :expressionless:
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Give me a break.. :rolleyes:

It's about wealth and power .. and who has it.
Political and for the Ukrainians they are fighting for their country.

But for me, it is about that, I know that there might be more reasons, but that doesn't mean that I have to throw my principles in the dumpster.

Hmm .. when Ukraine was part of USSR, they were all "evil Russians" .. and now a couple
of decades later they are European citizens ( not! )
They are Europeans in the sense that Europe engulfs them as a continent. Whether they were part of Russia earlier doesn't matter.

And they became their own country and therefore can do what they want.

I'm not trying .. you need to show me why it is acceptable for Russia to have US military bases
on its border .. but not for the US to have Russian military bases on its border. (or on Cuba)
You will have to ask the US.

No. ..which is why we need to honor treaties, and respect each other.
And how well did that turn out?

When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, Ukraine had the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal on its territory. When Ukrainian-Russian negotiations on removing these weapons from Ukraine appeared to break down in September 1993, the U.S. government engaged in a trilateral process with Ukraine and Russia. The result was the Trilateral Statement, signed in January 1994, under which Ukraine agreed to transfer the nuclear warheads to Russia for elimination. In return, Ukraine received security assurances from the United States, Russia and Britain; compensation for the economic value of the highly-enriched uranium in the warheads (which could be blended down and converted into fuel for nuclear reactors); and assistance from the United States in dismantling the missiles, missile silos, bombers and nuclear infrastructure on its territory.

That is how it appears from a western viewpoint .. but we are all biased .. media outlets are
biased, depending on where you are sitting. Don't be spoon fed by Fox news or CNN, BBC .. seek
knowledge .. war between nuclear powers is serious, for goodness sake.
But Ukraine is not going to win without aid from Western countries, how is that biased or wrong?

No .. the solution is diplomacy .. neutral countries are more likely to be able to help with that.
..not nations that have "interests" in defeating Russia .. like NATO. If Ukraine had remained neutral,
Russia would have had no reason to invade .. to overthrow Zelensky.
That would be the best, but Putin is never going to accept an agreement where he doesn't get a chunk of Ukraine. So should we allow that?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It is about fairness and helping people, if the Russians want to live under this psychopath then let them, but trying to blame NATO and the US for having caused this, is absurd at best.

It's not so absurd if you look at the chain of events leading up to the psychopath's rise to power. That said, I don't really see it as a matter of "who started it." That's what children say when they get into a fight, but when it comes to wars between nations, the question of "who started it" and the underlying causes can be rather complicated and murky.

In the case of conflict between Ukraine and Russia, the underlying causes likely go a long way back into history. The US and NATO have very little to do with the history between the Russians and Ukrainians one way or the other, but if the US and NATO choose to involve themselves in a conflict between those two countries, then that's definitely on the US and NATO. They are certainly the cause of their own involvement, as they do so by choice, out of convenience and not necessity.

I don't believe it's about fairness or helping people.

What if every ally had said the same during WW2 as you do now? Do we want to live in a world where people like this can do whatever they feel like?

Ironically, the two major Allied powers who were instrumental in the Allies' victory did say that, in a manner of speaking. Both the US and USSR did not oppose the Axis from the outset. In fact, the USSR even enabled and aided and abetted Germany in the invasion of Poland and took a piece of that country for themselves. The US did not intervene, although FDR started sending supplies to Britain. If Japan had never attacked us and Germany never declared war on us, we might not have gotten involved at all. And if Germany never attacked the USSR, then they may not have ever gone to war with each other.

Both Germany and Japan shared one thing in common: They were both starved for oil and needed it very badly. You ask what kind of world we live in, it's an industrial world where oil is its lifeblood. Nobody can do whatever they feel like unless they have the oil.

No one and I mean no one should bend over for these maniacs let alone praise them as if they have done nothing wrong.

And surely he (Zelensky I assume you mean?) cares about this war and it escalating, but what do you want him to do? their country including civilians is getting killed and they are fighting a much stronger opponent that they clearly can't win against on their own. But you can't blame him for that when it was Russia that attacked them. It would be like blaming the Polish people for starting WW2.

There have been wars in Europe over centuries in which some leaders might come to the bargaining table, and land might change hands or other terms imposed. Sometimes, you just have to sit down and make a deal. I think Zelensky is thinking along those lines anyway. With Trump coming back into the White House, the US position on the situation may be in flux. Other European leaders may want to weigh in before Trump enters office.

So your solution is just to allow Russia, US and China or any big countries to just invade other countries as they please? Why should we do anything if any of them decided to do such a thing?

If a country chooses to go to war with another country, we don't necessarily have to "allow them," assuming that we're in a position of authority where we can give them permission to do so. But it's more a practical matter of whether we're big enough to stop them, whether we're willing to take on the risk, how far we're willing to go, and whether it's really worth it.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Well, you sure don't sound like one.

And how do you suppose that Ukraine gets peace with Russia while not losing any territory?
We all lost territories after WW2.
Even your country.
So ... enough with this whining, and let's move on. For the sake of peace.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
t's undeniable that at the European Union there are people who wants us Europeans to be at war against Russia.

They are technocratic élites who eat caviar and sip champagne (the expensive one) and couldn't care less about peace.
They just want war, war, war.
They demand that other people fight, while they remain warm, safe and sound in their luxurious mansions.

Sounds like you are confusing them with the Kremlin oligarchs and Putin.
 
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