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The watch analogy

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Well that was a long one alright.

Sorry I got here so late....

Allow me to ask....
this thread was intended to speak of God's existence...and profess the complexity of this world and the life in it...to be some evidence?

I would say... yeah.

I suspect there maybe physical life elsewhere in the heavens...but for now...
this planet and the complex interactions of the many and varied forms of life...
are signs of spiritual directing.

Some postings here show a lack of faith ....no belief beyond dying.
Too bad.
If your thoughts are no more than the sum of your chemistry....
your mind will fail...when you surrender your last breath.

As for previous postings about the relationship between mind and body...
true enough.
If your chemistry is troubled...so too your relationship with your body.

Having suffered profound loss and regain....
My mind is clear.
I do believe it will remain that way after I die....forever.

The body is only a means of learning all that you can before you die.
Then back to God you go.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
It's more of a "designed things indicate a designer" thread; but I ain't gonna say Thief don't know, 'cause Thief always knows something. ;)

Many of us on this forum share a similar belief - all things come from god, all things return to god - what is in debate is whether this belief is relative to science, and whether this belief should be postulated as science. I clearly say "No." ;)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It's more of a "designed things indicate a designer" thread; but I ain't gonna say Thief don't know, 'cause Thief always knows something. ;)

Many of us on this forum share a similar belief - all things come from god, all things return to god - what is in debate is whether this belief is relative to science, and whether this belief should be postulated as science. I clearly say "No." ;)

I noticed one of your postings earlier....saw something like it in a science documentary....the Science of Chaos...

Turns out, repeated action can cause complexity.
The example given was simple enough.

Take one cube of dice, one pencil and paper, a scale for measure.
Choose at random three points on the paper....straight edge the triangle.
Label each corner with two numbers....one and two...three and four...
five and six.

Throw the cube.
Starting from a point chosen at random,
measure halfway to the corner indicated by the cube. Make a mark.
Roll again.

Repeating the process will develop a pattern.
But it takes forever...one point at a time.
So someone made a program and let a computer do it quicker.

The result was a display of triangles....all congruent to the original.
Smaller...larger...overlapping....but the same in proportion.

If you substitute the chemistry of this earth and give it repeated action...
the chemistry will overlap.
Unlike the above geometry exercise....overlapping chemistry can react.

Then you get a whole new set of repeated actions....like us.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
That's order from chaos. Ah-ha! You are an agent of KAOS, like we. ;)

That's not intelligent design. One of the big problems I have with intelligent design is assuming ours is the intelligence to know the Designer... and I'm sorry; but that is fail.
In big letters. I was watching a documentary last night, and the narrator goes:

It's funny that we talk about knowing a perfect creator, when the course of human history shows repetitively one great concurrent pattern: The human ability to continually get stuff wrong. :D
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Surya, we fundamentally disagree about whether CI should be considered a "scientific" or "philosophical" position. I think that we need to move on. It has nothing to do with anyone's misunderstanding of Bell's experiment or decoherence, but you seem to think that more explanation of those phenomena will make your case. We are talking past each other.

No we don't. The hard problem of consciousness still stands in neurobiology, consciousness studies and philosophy of mind. You are begging the question by saying we know this. What we do know is known as the soft problem of consciousness that is neural correlates for mental states. Correlation is not causality.
Do you really think that I don't understand the difference between correlation and causation? Look, after you drink too much beer, I will claim that the alcohol in your brain caused your drunken state of mind. You can claim that it is mere correlation that needs further study. A theist might claim that a god, angry at people who drink, actually causes the state of mind. ;)

You have just underlined the most important part of what I am saying: needs. Evolution is need driven. Needs are the properties of conscious things...
No. Honestly, you still don't get it. Evolution is just about natural selection of self-replicating processes that compete with each other for resources. You can be much needier than your neighbor but still have fewer children. It is all about who leaves the greater number of offspring, regardless of need. There is no direction to it. It is completely mindless. Animals did not evolve brains because they needed them. They evolved brains because the less brainy animals could not compete with the brainier ones.

All evolution theories depend upon a telefunctionalist assumption Natural selection imputes needs to nature. But this is simply false, nature has no needs. It is dead. No observation supports that nature has needs. This is why natural selection can only convert the already converted. It is illogical to me, hence why I reject it.
You ought to take another look at how evolution works. From what I can tell, you have seriously misconstrued it.

They have no awareness. They are just machines...
Right. That is why I said "Those machines are not self-aware in the sense that we are, but..." My point was that anyone who sets out to design autonomous moving vehicles is ultimately led to the natural conclusion that they need to be made self-aware in order to be successful at what we want them to do. That animals should naturally have evolved self-awareness without some intelligent guiding hand is easy to understand. The more aware that a moving organism is of its surroundings and its own health, the better it can predict future events that affect its survival. Competing organisms that are less self-aware would be at a disadvantage.

Yeah, it does not surprise me. Indian philosophy was taught in Western curriculums because they put in the same category as religion. Meanwhile, it was OK to teach Plato/Aristotle and Greek philosophy, Descartes, Berekley, Bergon, Spinoza etc etc. It is simply eurocentrism and nothing else.
It isn't just Europeans who are narcissistic, you know. We tend to recognize that fault more easily in others than in ourselves. While my professor grew up in the Raj and even spent time in jail for fighting the British, it was fellow Indians who maintained that rigid view of the curriculum. Nowadays, Indian nationalism also produces its excesses, just as American nationalism does.

I am not a linguist, so I can only talk about the little I know. From what I know from reading some experts in these fields, Sanskrit is a well-formed language with formal language processing. It anticipates BNF and formal languages. It has a machine code like structure. Noam Chomsky was a big Panini devotee and even named a theory after him.
No, Noam Chomsky was not a big Panini devotee. I was acquainted with most Panini specialists in the 1960s and 1970s, and I was trained as a generative linguist. Chomsky was intrigued by Panini, but I don't think that he ever devoted much time to studying Panini. I am very familiar with BNF, programming languages and the nature of machine code. There are big differences between formal languages and natural languages, the former being context-free and the latter context-sensitive. The only thing special about Sanskrit is that it evolved as a literary standard. There is nothing special about its structure. Like Latin, Old Irish, Old Germanic, Armenian, Albanian, Lituanian, Old Church Slavonic, Avestan, Hittite, Greek,etc., it belonged to a branch of the Indo-European language family. It was imported into Northern India from the west over 2,000 years ago.

I have read articles by Rick Briggs and Subhah Kak, both computer scientists and specialists in AI, both of which have called Sanskrit the only natural language which doubles up as a formal language as well, or formal language with natural language processing.
I have not read these articles, but I can say with total confidence that that is just false. No one with a strong background in linguistics would make such a claim, although you do hear such statements from dilettantes occasionally. I know of someone who has made a nearly identical claim for the Peruvian native American language Quechua, which I also know something about. Occasionally, reputable newspapers will pick these stories up because of the sensational nature of the claims.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Would modus tollens and modus ponens respectively be accurate translations here?
I think abduction is a reasonable translation for this.

Perhaps it is better to not use these translations, because they are similar, but still very different from how they are used in Indian logic.

In Indian logic p and q have to be invariably concomitant. Such that if p is present q is always entailed(there cannot be exceptions) In later Indian logic p and q were defined very precisely by their properties. As a certain type of smoke for example does not entail a certain type of fire, a smoke bomb is not produced from a general type of fire, but certainly there is a chemical reaction taking place producing heat which is not visible. Birds flying in a certain way can be used to make the inference an earthquake is about to take place.

In the case of abduction especially, p and q are not invariably concomitant. As there are several alternatives possible for p. For example if I see wet soil I can guess that it rained last night, but there are other explanations such as somebody spilling water on it, a dam breaking. Therefore there is no invariable concomitance between p and q. This is recognised as a fallacy in Indian logic.

Applying Indian logic to real world examples such as the motion of an arrow. There is a relationship of invariable concomitance between the arrow in flight and falling. It is impossible to have a situation where an arrow is in flight and it does not fall. From another observation it is shown there is a relationship of invariable concomitance between motion and force. That is an object remains at rest or continues in motion until a force is applied. Therefore, the falling of the arrow can only be explained by positing a downwards force.

Indian logic is therefore a scientific logic. It is very similar to how science makes an observation and then best tries to explain that observation. But it is in fact superior because science is essentially guessing at the explanation from hypothesis(abduction) when several hypothesis are possible(for gravity: Newtonian, GR etc) In Indian logic only one explanation is possible. If there are several then no certain conclusions can be asserted. There is no hypothesizing in Indian science.

I would modify this. First, science is rational but it is not based on rationalism (see my empirical/empiricism distinction). Rational simply means agreeing with reason, as in not irrational. Second, its theories are not based on conjecture; its hypotheses are based on conjecture. Theories, on the other hand, must have sufficient evidence to support them so speaking from definition they cannot be based on conjecture. Third, some theories "end up getting falsified" because they no longer produce accurate predictions not because of irrationality (as implied by "not rational") nor due to being "based on conjecture" which they are not.

Here we will disagree. If a theory is rational, then why does it ever get falsified? The answer is because the premise of the theory were not valid all along. The conclusion may appear to look valid, but if the premises are false, then the conclusion is not actually valid. When a theory gets falsified it means that one or more of the premises of that theory were wrong. Just as 2+2 = 5 is not rational, a bad theory is not rational either.

The truth is that our current scientific method which relies on hypothetica-deductive method is an invalid method to ascertain truth. Even Karl Popper said that using this method truth can never be reached, but only asymptotically apprached through the gradual falsification of bad theories. Indian logic said from the very outset that hypothetical reasoning, ad hoc speculation etc is not a valid means of doing science.

The philosophy of science is in crisis since the advent of quantum theory. Many influencial and great philosophers have brought science to trial - Karl Popper, Thomas Kuhn etc in exposing the irrationalities in the modern scientific method.

Remember the argument from ignorance is a fallacy.

Yes, but this is not an argument from ignorance. This is an argument that the claimant must first produce proof of their position. As the default position in philosophy of science and philosophy of mind has been for thousands of years the mind-body problem(recent formulation is hard problem of consciousness) the burden of proof lies with the materialist to prove that this is produced from material activity.

As for naturalism (“materialist” is outdated and wrong) there are several lines of evidence that I believe make this the preferred conclusion. First I would like to modify that straw man you keep bringing up. The naturalist position is not that matter=consciousness but rather that mental states supervene on brain states.

This is not a strawman, but an accurate description of what materialislm teaches. It teaches that everything is really material activity and consciousness is an epiphenomena(the famous ghost in the machine metaphor) So the burden of proof lies with the materialist to show that material activity can produce consciousness. Until that is not forthcoming it is an unproven philosophy and the faith of those who subscribe to it.

The above shows, at the very least, that the brain is inherently tied to and affects the mind. Other supporting evidence is how the mind affects the brain but that is easy to come up with. Now for the evidence of causation and not correlation:

I appreciate you have been honest about the distinction between correlation and causation. What we know is that there is correlation between brain and mental states, which only proves that these two substances interact. It does not prove one is the other.

) Changes in electrical activity predict (and precede) changes in mental activity

This is true, but it also true that my thinking also leads to changes in electrical activity. Studies have shown for example how during meditative practices where I make a conscious effort to still the thought activity in my mind, there are predictable neurological state changes. Therefore there is no proof of causation here, but correlation and interaction. The brain interacts with the mind and the mind interacts with the brain.

No if it were true that the mind was caused by the brain then you have a logical problem. If something is caused by somthing else(such as electrical activity in the brain) then that something has no causal efficacy of its own. It is just an epiphenomena. For example the pictures on the television screen have no causal efficacy because they are just electrical activity really they cannot affect the electrical activity back. Similarly, in a computer the computer characters are all driven by lines of code, they have no causal efficacy of their own and cannot affect the code back.

In Indian logic this is postulated as the rule that the effect cannot prouce the cause only the cause can produce the effect. For example clay can produce a pot, but a pot cannot produce clay.

There is a spookiness inherent in your position that I pointed out earlier to Copernicus. That spookiness is how consciousness is being caused inside the brain, and yet it can go outside of the brain and see its own cause. It is just like the television pictures going outside of the screen and seeing the television circuit. The computer character going outside the computer and seeing the circuitry. Hilary Putnam framed this very well, "If you are a brain in a jar, how do you know you are a brain in a jar" Popular framing of this is: If you are in a matrix, how do you know you are in a matrix?

Indian logic has the best solution to this problem and that is the observer cannot be the observed. Whatever is observed is outside of you, it is impossible that you are inside of it. I observe the body - I am outside the body; I observe the brain - I am outside of the brain. I even observe the mind - I am outside of the mind.

As you are mentioning scientific studies I can also mention studies done on OBES and NDES. In these studies the person is able to detach from the body and see their body from outside. How is this possible at all if consciousness is in the body. How on earth can it come out of the body and see its own body?

How your “observer” is caused by the measurable activity of the brain yet still causes it? Is there another observer homunculus?

What you identify as an observer here is not identified as an observer in Indian logic(Samkhya). What you are identifying as observer is what we call mind, which is yet another content of observation. The observer is simply the fact of awareness or what in phenomenology is known as aboutness, and this awareness can have different content, but the the fact of awareness is axiomatic. in Indian logic we do not make the mistake of identifying the personality construct as the awareness. In fact the personality construct(buddhi, ahamkara and manas) are considered to be emergent material phenomenon(not built by physical matter, but primordial matter) It does not surprise us at all, that modern science has discovered this personality can be split up. We know it is a false construct.

The mind-body continuum is understood in Samkhya to be made out of inert non-intelligent matter and it is governed by natural laws. Consciousness, on the other hand, is the only substance which is not reducible to this mind-body continuum. The mind-body continuum is the object of conscousness/awareness, not the cause of it. Consciousness is an absolute precondition for you to know anything at all. Thus it is anterior. All that you know to be existent are objects of your consciousness.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
That's order from chaos. Ah-ha! You are an agent of KAOS, like we. ;)

That's not intelligent design. .....Oh but yes it is!

:D

An agent of 'kaos'...you refer to the old tv show ...'the Man from U.N.C.L.E.'..?

I cannot deny my involvement.
I am part of the plan and scheme of things.
Apparently I have blown my cover.

The Big Boss will be upset.
No doubt I will be eliminated before I can divulge any secrets.

But seriously...
To understand a mechanism enough to be sure of the outcome....
set the machine in motion and let it run....

All this chemistry...and all of it's churning...
and no opportunity to 'dwell' within it?

Of course the creation of Man was intended!!!!!
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Surya, we fundamentally disagree about whether CI should be considered a "scientific" or "philosophical" position. I think that we need to move on. It has nothing to do with anyone's misunderstanding of Bell's experiment or decoherence, but you seem to think that more explanation of those phenomena will make your case. We are talking past each other.

If you study philosophy, unless you specialise in philosophy of science, you will learn nothing about CI. If you study quantum physics, you will learn about the CI. The CI is not philosophy, it is science. Its authors were not philosophers but hard empiricist scientists. It is my contention that you want to put it in the category of philosophy because it challenges your worldview(naturalist/materialist) so you to argue it away as a philosophical interpretation ;)

However the CI is an empirically backed theory. It has survived rigorous scientific experiments and is still standing. I earlier posted a publication entitled, "Quantum physics says goodbye to reality" The status quo is clear.

But you are right we should stop discussing these, as we've come to saturation point. They say that you can bring the horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Do you really think that I don't understand the difference between correlation and causation? Look, after you drink too much beer, I will claim that the alcohol in your brain caused your drunken state of mind. You can claim that it is mere correlation that needs further study.

It is not a claim, it is in fact the case that this is only correlation. To say x caused y based on circumstantial evidence is not science.

No. Honestly, you still don't get it. Evolution is just about natural selection of self-replicating processes that compete with each other for resources..... Animals did not evolve brains because they needed them. They evolved brains because the less brainy animals could not compete with the brainier ones.

There is still a telefunctionalist assumption involved. You are claiming natural selection keeps some things and discards other(which do not survive) thus you are claiming that certain things are inherently favoured by nature. Such as brains.

But then you say nature is blind and non-intelligent. Then why does nature favour certain things? I see no evidence why nature would favour one thing over the other.

It have already shown that a single error in an aggregation of a complex system means the end of that system. You are basically telling me the 1 million monkeys will one day write out the complete works of shakespeare. And I am telling you show me any chaotic system that can give rise to highly complex systems.

Chaos can only produce chaos. How does chaos produce order? Absurd.

Right. That is why I said "Those machines are not self-aware in the sense that we are, but..." My point was that anyone who sets out to design autonomous moving vehicles is ultimately led to the natural conclusion that they need to be made self-aware in order to be successful at what we want them to do. That animals should naturally have evolved self-awareness without some intelligent guiding hand is easy to understand. The more aware that a moving organism is of its surroundings and its own health, the better it can predict future events that affect its survival.

Yep, you are making a telefunctionalist assumption again. You are saying because a function is needed for "better survival", it somehow comes into being. The irony is humans are not the best designs for survival, they are frail compared to most animals, cannot survive easily in open environments so they need to invent clothes and build shelters and are born with few instincs. Put a human in a cage with lion and see who more is more suited for survival ;) The truth is cockroaches are better at survival than humans are :D

Whichever way you look at it, you are guilty of imputing needs to nature or a bias towards a certain design. What you fail to explain is the natural conveniances where an organism will develop exactly those features it needs to survive in a given environment. Nature seems to assemble its own sonar systems for some animals :D

It isn't just Europeans who are narcissistic, you know. We tend to recognize that fault more easily in others than in ourselves. While my professor grew up in the Raj and even spent time in jail for fighting the British, it was fellow Indians who maintained that rigid view of the curriculum. Nowadays, Indian nationalism also produces its excesses, just as American nationalism does.

Yeah, but these are not the same Indians who lived in India before the British came. These are next generation Indians who have been educated under British education and taught to uphold its values. They are Indian in only skintone and geography, but British in their values and culture.

I have not read these articles, but I can say with total confidence that that is just false. No one with a strong background in linguistics would make such a claim, although you do hear such statements from dilettantes occasionally. I know of someone who has made a nearly identical claim for the Peruvian native American language Quechua, which I also know something about. Occasionally, reputable newspapers will pick these stories up because of the sensational nature of the claims.

It is better we discuss linguistics elsewhere, or we will end up in a sub-debate on Sanskrit in this thread lol. Suffice it to say, what you are saying here and I have read from experts in linguistics and lay articles online is in contradiction, and nothing personal, but I am inclined to accept what they say over what you say.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
An agent of 'kaos'...you refer to the old tv show ...'the Man from U.N.C.L.E.'..?

I cannot deny my involvement.
I am part of the plan and scheme of things.
Apparently I have blown my cover.

The Big Boss will be upset.
No doubt I will be eliminated before I can divulge any secrets.

But seriously...
To understand a mechanism enough to be sure of the outcome....
set the machine in motion and let it run....

All this chemistry...and all of it's churning...
and no opportunity to 'dwell' within it?

Of course the creation of Man was intended!!!!!
That or Get Smart. ;)

But I am half-way with you. I consider that the evolution of self-awareness was inevitable. As the amount of free energy available for work decreases (entropy) the complexity of the workers increases (evolution). But that self awareness need not have been Man. On the outside, I am Homo sapiens sapiens; on the inside, however, I am ellen, a piece of computational irreducibility. But if I jam an ice-pick into my ear - a concern of matter - there ain't gonna be no more mind. :D
 
Many of us on this forum share a similar belief - all things come from god, all things return to god
You mean that God is the first cause -- the one because of whom anything exits? I assume you do not mean that I cannot create or do anything that is my own idea and responsibility rather than God's, as in absolute predestination, absolute divine sovereignty or pantheism because then I would not agree. I am an open theist and I would assert that any true creation (the creation of something real rather than simply a dream in a dreamer's own mind) by an omnipotent being is necessarily an act of self-limitation. For example, I disagree with the usual Christian answer to the question whether God can create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it, to say yes He can, disagreeing with this attempt by many Christians to limit God to their theological definitions of Him.


- what is in debate is whether this belief is relative to science, and whether this belief should be postulated as science. I clearly say "No." ;)
I am not sure what "relative to science" means, I definitely read the Bible in the context of the world including science and would not take the Bible to mean something that contradicts science because that would be meaningless to me. I certainly agree with the last part and it is certainly a postulate made by Dawkins in "The God Delusion" that I disagreed with.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
It is not a claim, it is in fact the case that this is only correlation. To say x caused y based on circumstantial evidence is not science.
Surya, causal relationships are also correlations. The thing about the mind is that one can cause predictable mental outcomes through experimentation on brains. That is what experimental neuropsychology is all about. Physical cause and mental effect.

There is still a telefunctionalist assumption involved...
I am not familiar with your term "telefunctionalist". Teleofunctionalism is a term associated with the philosophy of mind, but it doesn't seem directly relevant to the theory of evolution. Do you mean "teleological"?

You are claiming natural selection keeps some things and discards other(which do not survive) thus you are claiming that certain things are inherently favoured by nature. Such as brains.
Honestly, you do not really understand what evolution theory is about. The whole point is that nature is always changing, and the ability of life forms to adapt to it is therefore always out of sync. All I would say about brains is that conditions on Earth favored the evolution of animals with brains at this particular point in time. Nature does not actually "favor" anything at all. Biological organisms adapt because those that cannot tend to produce fewer copies of themselves. If we somehow manage to kill ourselves off, life will probably continue to evolve on Earth. It will just be that our particular form of life will become incapable of adapting further to environmental conditions.

But then you say nature is blind and non-intelligent. Then why does nature favour certain things? I see no evidence why nature would favour one thing over the other.
Nor do I. Constantly shifting environmental conditions determine the odds of survival and reproduction.

It have already shown that a single error in an aggregation of a complex system means the end of that system. You are basically telling me the 1 million monkeys will one day write out the complete works of shakespeare. And I am telling you show me any chaotic system that can give rise to highly complex systems.

Chaos can only produce chaos. How does chaos produce order? Absurd.
I can do no more than urge you to educate yourself on the subject of chaos theory. You have the intelligence to do it, but perhaps not the will.

Yep, you are making a telefunctionalist assumption again. You are saying because a function is needed for "better survival", it somehow comes into being. The irony is humans are not the best designs for survival, they are frail compared to most animals, cannot survive easily in open environments so they need to invent clothes and build shelters and are born with few instincs. Put a human in a cage with lion and see who more is more suited for survival ;) The truth is cockroaches are better at survival than humans are :D
Perhaps cockroaches are, but not lions. :D Look, you keep repeating common misunderstandings of evolution theory. I will give you the same advice for evolution theory. Read a good book on the subject. I highly recommend Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker, because it explains in clear detail why evolution is not "telefunctionalist" (if I understand your usage of that term) and how it relates to the intelligent design debate. If you distrust Dawkins, for some reason, then you can find books on the subject by many people of faith, for example Kenneth Miller.

It is better we discuss linguistics elsewhere, or we will end up in a sub-debate on Sanskrit in this thread lol. Suffice it to say, what you are saying here and I have read from experts in linguistics and lay articles online is in contradiction, and nothing personal, but I am inclined to accept what they say over what you say.
No offense, Surya, but you are unqualified to judge anyone's credentials in linguistics. I have been a professional linguist (probably) for longer than you have been alive, and I have also specialized in computational linguistics for a quarter of a century now. As an aspiring philosopher, you ought to take courses in that area, but an introductory course should clear up your misunderstandings about natural and formal languages.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
You mean that God is the first cause -- the one because of whom anything exits? I assume you do not mean that I cannot create or do anything that is my own idea and responsibility rather than God's, as in absolute predestination, absolute divine sovereignty or pantheism because then I would not agree. I am an open theist and I would assert that any true creation (the creation of something real rather than simply a dream in a dreamer's own mind) by an omnipotent being is necessarily an act of self-limitation. For example, I disagree with the usual Christian answer to the question whether God can create a rock so heavy that even He cannot lift it, to say yes He can, disagreeing with this attempt by many Christians to limit God to their theological definitions of Him.
Not so much - first cause - as I see god as being beyond causality. Causality is a good tool for science but not so much for philosophy, as it tends to add support to a First Cause religion. And I don't see letting dumbski and co. into religion would be a benefit to that religion. OK, I'm prejudiced! I don't like that guy! Mathematics sacred to this fool, dumbski black magician. ;)

One thing I am not going to do is tell anyone how they should view god. (Well, not entirely... ;)) My belief of - all things come from god, all things return to god - comes from personal experience of living and dying. Nope, haven't been dead yet, but been dying. But the simplest definition I have of god is as universal waveform. That living beings are as particles evolved to capture a piece of this waveform, and that when our particles recycle; the piece of the waveform rejoins the universal. Remember, a minima, not a maxima. ;)

My solution to the rock question is anticipation; that whatever the believer anticipates to be the answer, will be the answer. God is cleverer than I.


I am not sure what "relative to science" means, I definitely read the Bible in the context of the world including science and would not take the Bible to mean something that contradicts science because that would be meaningless to me. I certainly agree with the last part and it is certainly a postulate made by Dawkins in "The God Delusion" that I disagreed with.
I like Dawkins. I think he is a good scientist, I think his heart is in the right place. But his theology is straight crap. ;)
 
Not so much - first cause - as I see god as being beyond causality. Causality is a good tool for science but not so much for philosophy, as it tends to add support to a First Cause religion. And I don't see letting dumbski and co. into religion would be a benefit to that religion. OK, I'm prejudiced! I don't like that guy! Mathematics sacred to this fool, dumbski black magician. ;)
Not 100% sure what you mean by dumski. The god of the magical christians maybe? The God of the Bible? Any personal God? Any God apart from the universe?

As for the ancient necromancer god of the magical Christians I couldn't agree more.

As for the God of the Bible, well people seem to see many different ideas of God in the Bible. For example I see a parent who changes His role in relationship to us as we mature. So to the two year old the parent may indeed be the big-bad-no-you-cannot-do-this-and-no-you-cannot-do-that, but then as the child grows older the parent trusts the child to do some thinking for himself and so, love God and your neighbor is enough.

As for any personal God, well I believe in an unlimited infinite God and I think that means that He is not only personal but transpersonal -- not lacking anything that a person has but beyond the limits of singular personhood. The infinitude of God is essential for what draws me to Him and makes a relationship with Him worthwhile is the promise that this relationship with Him will provide never ending inspiration.

As for any God apart from the universe, the patheistic god is for me equivalent to no god at all and perhaps life isn't worth living and sweet oblivion is better. Why not just destroy the world and end the pointless suffering of so many people.

One thing I am not going to do is tell anyone how they should view god. (Well, not entirely... ;))
LOL me neither. If you don't seek an understanding of this stuff yourself then it seems rather pointless to me. The hand-me-down religion is dead religion, for some that is even part of the meaning of the word religion, and prefer to call their own quest for truth something else.

My belief of - all things come from god, all things return to god - comes from personal experience of living and dying. Nope, haven't been dead yet, but been dying. But the simplest definition I have of god is as universal waveform. That living beings are as particles evolved to capture a piece of this waveform, and that when our particles recycle; the piece of the waveform rejoins the universal. Remember, a minima, not a maxima. ;)
Sounds like nothing to me.

My solution to the rock question is anticipation; that whatever the believer anticipates to be the answer, will be the answer. God is cleverer than I.
LOL Well there is likely to be some truth to that. If you limit God then God's participation in your life is all too likely to be limited as a result. I believe there is a irreducibly subjective aspect to reality, so that to some degree belief does create reality, just not to the extent that Surya seems to think it does. Belief has an impact on reality not only because it is part of our mind and our minds are real but also because it is part of how our mind operates and thus affects both our perception of reality and how we participate. We are not just observers. We are participants and it is the very nature of living things to impose their own order on their evironment.

I like Dawkins. I think he is a good scientist, I think his heart is in the right place. But his theology is straight crap. ;)
Yes. I liked "Climbing Mount Improbable" and "Ancestors Tale". I like the words "designoid" and "meme" that he coined. But yes I think "The God Delusion" was terribly naive and "The Selfish Gene" was a bit overboard also.
 
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Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
Surya, causal relationships are also correlations. The thing about the mind is that one can cause predictable mental outcomes through experimentation on brains. That is what experimental neuropsychology is all about. Physical cause and mental effect.

A causal relationship is not a correlation. To say something is correlated is to say that something is in association with something else. For example my habit of debating with everysingle person I meet is correlated to the rise in headaches of people I meet :D It is not the cause though. In a causal relationship there is an invariable concomitance between two things, such that it is impossible for p to be true and q false, where p is the antendent and q the consquent.

Mind and brain are joined together by a correlation i.e., an association between mind and brain. If brain is affected, mind is affected; if mind is affected brain is affected. Neither one can be declared to be the cause of consciousness.

I am not familiar with your term "telefunctionalist". Teleofunctionalism is a term associated with the philosophy of mind, but it doesn't seem directly relevant to the theory of evolution. Do you mean "teleological"?

Telefunctionalism is from the functionalist philosophy which assumes that there is a reason for a function. So a brain arises because that function is needed to x, y or z. Such as we evolved language so we could survive or the bat evolved sonar so it could survive. Natural selection is based on an assumption of survial - x is needed to survive.

All evolution theories have a telefunctional assumption or a teleology. The Hindu theroy of evolution is teleological we develop metacognition so we can start to think for ourselves, become aware of our bondage to matter and gain liberation. Animals cannot gain liberation because they lack a decent level of metacognition.

So why is your theory of evolution more valid than my theory? If you argue that mine is based on a host of assumptions(I argue there no assumptions, just pure logical facts), then so is yours.

1) You assume nature has a predispition to survival
2) You assume that chaotic processes can orginate order
3) You assume that consciousness is an emergent substance of nature

Can you prove anyone of these assumptions?

Honestly, you do not really understand what evolution theory is about..... Constantly shifting environmental conditions determine the odds of survival and reproduction.

Again you are begging the question. You are not actually proving this is true. You are just saying it is true because it is true(circular reasoning) You have a BIG assumptions here: survival - and it is in need of proof.

Imagine this scenorio: When the first humans were born. What would have happened if 1) they did not eat and drink and 2) they did not reproduce.

1) Hmmm, look water. This water goes in the mouth. Hmmm, look, animal. This animal must be killed and eaten :D
2) Hmmm, look woman/man. We must have sex :D

What magical a priori knowledge causes the first humans to go and seek food and water and know that they must have sex to reproduce.

I know your answer "instinct" - another assumption :D

I can do no more than urge you to educate yourself on the subject of chaos theory. You have the intelligence to do it, but perhaps not the will.

This is like expecting me to do a degree in bible studies in order to discuss Christianity. I only need enough knowledge to talk about the matter. I know what chaos theory says generally. What I am asking you is prove it. It is simple just show me one chaotic system that has given rise to highly complex systems. It will only take one one example to prove your case.

How can you expect me to accept what you are telling me without proof?

Perhaps cockroaches are, but not lions. :D Look, you keep repeating common misunderstandings of evolution theory. I will give you the same advice for evolution theory. Read a good book on the subject. I highly recommend Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker, because it explains in clear detail why evolution is not "telefunctionalist" (if I understand your usage of that term) and how it relates to the intelligent design debate. If you distrust Dawkins, for some reason, then you can find books on the subject by many people of faith, for example Kenneth Miller.

Again, I have enough knowledge to discuss this matter. I will only read further works on this area if I am motivated enough to learn more about it. However, as it stands it is already absurd to me. So I need some reason to show me that it is not absurd in order to kindle interest. You keep repeating like a mantra survival, survival, survival..... well the cockroach which emerged millions of years before the human being on this planet had already reached higher capacity to survive than humans have, then why would nature evolve humans? Surely there is another criteria here other than survival.

Why should survival at all be a part of nature? Why should an animal and human being want to survive? What causes an electric circuit to want things?
If I want to turn my computer off, it turns off, it does not fight me, "No, I don't want to be turned off" So why is this life-preserving instinct in nature at all? Explain.

No offense, Surya, but you are unqualified to judge anyone's credentials in linguistics. I have been a professional linguist (probably) for longer than you have been alive, and I have also specialized in computational linguistics for a quarter of a century now. As an aspiring philosopher, you ought to take courses in that area, but an introductory course should clear up your misunderstandings about natural and formal languages.

I am not doubting your expertise in your field. I have doubt because your expertise is contradicting the expertise of others who are also in your field. These are highly established experts who are published, and you I only know from here. Hence I am inclined to accept what they say. We can discuss this in another thread, but not here, because I will need to do some research as this is not my field.

I already noticed one gap in your knowledge already which is not your field. Your insistance on the fact that "Sanskrit came to India" i.e., your acceptance of Aryan invasion theory - which is actually highly controversial and many Hindus outright reject it as racist colonial propoganda.
 
I already noticed one gap in your knowledge already which is not your field. Your insistance on the fact that "Sanskrit came to India" i.e., your acceptance of Aryan invasion theory - which is actually highly controversial and many Hindus outright reject it as racist colonial propoganda.

Sounds to me like the way some people have decided the holocaust was jewish propaganda. An observation of the pattern of human history shows that it is all too likely that every place on the planet was acquired by the people who live there by conquest at some time in the past. These events leave their mark in the form of remnants of the culture that went before. Dispute by the religious and the nationalists is also typical. Some of us just don't feel so insecure that we need to hide from the truth.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Sounds to me like the way some people have decided the holocaust was jewish propaganda. An observation of the pattern of human history shows that it is all too likely that every place on the planet was acquired by the people who live there by conquest at some time in the past. These events leave their mark in the form of remnants of the culture that went before. Dispute by the religious and the nationalists is also typical. Some of us just don't feel so insecure that we need to hide from the truth.
Hi, Mitchell. My personal definition of an expert is someone who understands his level of ignorance in a given field. Surya has admitted that he is no expert in linguistics, and he has proven that here. :) There is a controversy in India over whether or not Sanskrit was actually imported into India, but that is a political controversy. There are solid linguistic arguments that establish the homeland of Proto-Indo-European outside of northern India--actually probably in the steppes of Russia--and there is archaeological evidence to back up that claim. However, Hindu nationalists have taken this question up as a cause. I suppose that they see it as a matter of national pride that the "aryans" originally came from India.

You are right to link this belief to holocaust denial, but only in the sense that it represents a weird belief held by people who are intelligent enough to know better. I want to recommend a book to you that you may be familiar with already, since you say that you were brought up as a skeptic: Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things. Shermer befriended and studied the community of holocaust deniers in order to understand the basis of their dogged belief that the holocaust was somehow a historical hoax. He noted that many holocaust deniers were highly intelligent people and had a great deal of historical knowledge. Normally, one might expect such people to just look at the facts and reject holocaust denial as inaccurate. He concluded that many intelligent people come to believe weird things because they are particularly good at defending beliefs regardless of whether those beliefs are obviously wrong to others. All one needs to do is ignore the preponderance of evidence and focus on any evidence, however slight, that something is amiss with the counterevidence. So, if someone can find evidence that a proponent of the holocaust event exaggerated some statistic or location or name, etc., then that can be used to "poison the well" against anyone presenting evidence in favor of the holocaust's authenticity.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Not 100% sure what you mean by dumski. The god of the magical christians maybe? The God of the Bible? Any personal God? Any God apart from the universe?
William Dembski of ID fame. Ick! :D
As for the ancient necromancer god of the magical Christians I couldn't agree more.

As for the God of the Bible, well people seem to see many different ideas of God in the Bible. For example I see a parent who changes His role in relationship to us as we mature. So to the two year old the parent may indeed be the big-bad-no-you-cannot-do-this-and-no-you-cannot-do-that, but then as the child grows older the parent trusts the child to do some thinking for himself and so, love God and your neighbor is enough.
I agree. God the father makes sense to me.
As for any personal God, well I believe in an unlimited infinite God and I think that means that He is not only personal but transpersonal -- not lacking anything that a person has but beyond the limits of singular personhood. The infinitude of God is essential for what draws me to Him and makes a relationship with Him worthwhile is the promise that this relationship with Him will provide never ending inspiration.

As for any God apart from the universe, the patheistic god is for me equivalent to no god at all and perhaps life isn't worth living and sweet oblivion is better. Why not just destroy the world and end the pointless suffering of so many people.


LOL me neither. If you don't seek an understanding of this stuff yourself then it seems rather pointless to me. The hand-me-down religion is dead religion, for some that is even part of the meaning of the word religion, and prefer to call their own quest for truth something else.
I mostly agree. I don't see a pantheistic god as being no kinda god if a believer can find a worthwhile path heading in that direction. I mean, I can't; but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

Sounds like nothing to me.
First time I researched quantum decoherence, I got it wrong. Skillz, huh? But I went back and did more research. From my original misunderstanding, I formulated what I call "the decoherence model;" and it is part of my "mathematical theology," from which the analogy derives. If it sounds like nothing, that is better than sounding offensive; a plus in my book. You probably wouldn't like mathematical theology, and I'm not here to pimp my ride; so we good here. :D


LOL Well there is likely to be some truth to that. If you limit God then God's participation in your life is all too likely to be limited as a result. I believe there is a irreducibly subjective aspect to reality, so that to some degree belief does create reality, just not to the extent that Surya seems to think it does. Belief has an impact on reality not only because it is part of our mind and our minds are real but also because it is part of how our mind operates and thus affects both our perception of reality and how we participate. We are not just observers. We are participants and it is the very nature of living things to impose their own order on their evironment.


Yes. I liked "Climbing Mount Improbable" and "Ancestors Tale". I like the words "designoid" and "meme" that he coined. But yes I think "The God Delusion" was terribly naive and "The Selfish Gene" was a bit overboard also.
Guy's on an atheist crusade. What is that all about? :D

But with his foundation, I can see his point more clearly; there is an unfair discrimination against atheism in many parts of this country. I don't agree that atheism is the way to go, but I do believe in education; and his sites are educational.
 

ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Come on, Surya! Show me a consciousness that is separate from mind. And the difference between the theory of evolution and your theory is a hundred-fifty years and a library's worth of reference; and, well, you. I'm thinking you got something to say, I'm just not agreeing with how you're saying it. ;)
 
First time I researched quantum decoherence, I got it wrong. Skillz, huh? But I went back and did more research. From my original misunderstanding, I formulated what I call "the decoherence model;" and it is part of my "mathematical theology," from which the analogy derives. If it sounds like nothing, that is better than sounding offensive; a plus in my book. You probably wouldn't like mathematical theology, and I'm not here to pimp my ride; so we good here. :D
I had never heard of mathematical theology before so I looked it up. Of course I know about Pythagoras. In so far as mathematics is the language of physics and the universe is a creation of God, I can agree with the idea that God speaks to us in this language to some degree. I think that God can speak any language He chooses but the mathematical one is a bit more free of the distortions of human influence, though I generally say this in a different way -- more like, science by studying God's handiwork provides a "scripture" much less warped by human agendas (often built right into the very languages we use to communicate with each other).
 
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