The Watchmaker Revisited

[Subduction Zone]

ha ha ha...you 'understand' nothing!

No one else in the Eastern arts seems to think of chi that way. Yours is a sterile, mechanistic reductionist's view of chi or qi, the life force. You want to eviscerate it of its true meaning, and define it only in terms of a particular application:

"The existence of electromagnetic fields around every object in the world - known as an Aura - is a scientifically proven fact. The Chinese refer to this energy as 'Chi' (pronounced Chee), the vital life force energy of the Universe, present within every living thing. "

Chi, Universal Life Force Energy, Aura, Chakras, Meridians.

It is obvious that you have seized the opportunity here to publicize your 'expertise' in the martial arts for egotistic gratification, something a real martial artist would never ever do. The original point of the discussion was only about the hara being a center of consciousness. You have taken that and run with it to suit your own agenda, which is 'look how great a martial artist I am'. Keep entertaining that myth and someday the unexpected attack from your opponent may be a devastating one, as your attention will have been misplaced in that one critical moment. The ego is an obstacle every martial artist must overcome if he is to make real progress.

Story:

A young archer in a village contest kept hitting the bullseye one after another. Afterward, an elderly archer asked if he would accompany him to a spot within a nearby forest. Reaching an area where a log traversed a very steep ravine with rapids below, the elderly man walked onto the log over the center of the ravine, and took a shot at a specified target on the other side, hitting it squarely. Returning to shore, he told the young man, 'Now you try it", at which the young archer began to step onto the log, but soon began to tremble in fear. He could not steady himself enough to get off a shot, and returned to the shore. The old man then said: "The problem with you is that you have one eye on the path and one eye on the goal, instead of both eyes on the path"

That is because they drank the Kool-Aid. You are merely pedaling woo and not seeing that there can be some real life value to that woo. I think that my usage is much closer to the "true meaning" of ki since it works. Woo, not so much

That is why that there are members of my styles of fighting that made the crossover into Mixed Martial Arts. And yet there are no practitioners from aikido that seem to have been able to make the jump.

Amusing anecdotes are not evidence. Perhaps you should try and see if there are any reliable sources that support your beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow, it didn't work because the Skeptic knew it wouldn't work. Not much of a weapon. Actually, not much of anything.

Moral of the story. Woo don't work.

No, it was crossing the toes and sticking one's tongue firmly in one's cheek. Didn't you listen to the explanations of Dillman

 

[ecco]

No, it was crossing the toes and sticking one's tongue firmly in one's cheek. Didn't you listen to the explanations of Dillman

I did. I also learned that I could alternate to ward off the "chi ball?".

Now, when it comes to getting KOd by untouchables, I'm "untouchable".

 

[Truly Enlightened]

So what we call 'the material world' is really all about our perception. 'Materiality' is perceptual reality, which does not answer the question as to the true nature of Reality. That is why the mystic transcends perceptual reality in order to reach Ultimate Reality.
I am not saying that there is something outside of nature; I am not saying there is a supernatural power; I am saying that what we seek is nature itself, but by using the rational mind, we only end up in paradox, because nature is bigger than reason, as OSHO tells us. The problem is that we are nature seeking itself, but using the wrong tools. There is a saying: "That which you are seeking is causing you to seek".
The world is NOT material. We only perceive it to be so.

If the particle is the field, as you say, then the particle is, in reality, energy, since the field is an energy field, but it is the field appearing as a particle. So from the view of the macro world and that of the Quantum world, there is no such thing as 'materiality'. As David Tong states: 'there are no particles in the world', and 'the Quantum vacuum is absolutely nothing'.

This is nothing acting as something, what the Hindus call 'maya', or illusion, in the play called lila. This 'nothing' is Pure Consciousness, what the Hindus call 'Brahman' or, the ground of all Being, ie 'The Unified Field'.

That is how I see it. What I see and what science sees are one and the same Reality, from two different perspectives. There are not two realities; there is only one; not a quantum reality vs a mystical reality. The particle is none other than the field. They are one and the same reality, with the one appearing as the other.

My father once told me that, "you can make s**t sound good enough to eat, if you just use the right words" It is very difficult for me to appreciate what you are saying, when you keep distorting and misinterpreting everything that I post..If you can't see an obvious difference between the Quantum and Classical worlds, then it is only by choice. If you wish to believe that the mystic transcends nature, then it must exists outside of nature. If you want to believe that matter is only energy, and a chair is not a material chair, then you are a slave to your own false equivocations. You want to believe in the existence of another reality so bad, that you are willing to semantically change the nature of the reality that does exist. You are even questioning existence and self awareness, which are both perceptions. Both can be objectively verified, without the need for any cognitive "wo-wo".

Since you cannot address my post with any degree of intellectual honesty, let me just ask you a few questions. Do you believe that a material world exist, whether we can perceive it or not? Do you believe that you can transcend your own subjective perspective? Do you believe that a mystical reality exists? We know that matter at the Quantum level is composed mostly of empty space. Does this mean that when we look or touch anything in the material world, that we are seeing and touching mostly empty space? How is your perspective relevant to the scientific perspective? And, finally, is "Pure consciousness" the same as "Absolute awareness"?

"What I see and what science sees are one and the same". I'm afraid that science do not state the obvious, and then conclude with the ridiculous. The rest is simply more "wo wo", that makes sense only to those that really want it to. It is certainly your right to believe in anything you want to, but it is not your right to create your own logic to support it.

 

[gnostic]

But you said:

"...a person have several levels of consciousness. But whatever the levels, it is all part of processes of sensory perceptions that the brain processed whatever one see, feel, hear, touch or smell."

...which would include the levels of transcendence of perception as well as those of perception.

I needs far more than just some hearsay of some mystics of “transcendence”.

You have not provide any evidence to this mystical woo, except a boatload of fallacies and wishful thinking.

 

[godnotgod]

That is because they drank the Kool-Aid. You are merely pedaling woo and not seeing that there can be some real life value to that woo. I think that my usage is much closer to the "true meaning" of ki since it works. Woo, not so much

That is why that there are members of my styles of fighting that made the crossover into Mixed Martial Arts. And yet there are no practitioners from aikido that seem to have been able to make the jump.

Amusing anecdotes are not evidence. Perhaps you should try and see if there are any reliable sources that support your beliefs.

Perhaps you should stop puffing yourself up to appear larger than you actually are. No one is impressed.

If you really understood the 'anecdote', you might understand the true nature of chi, rather than just its utility.

 

[godnotgod]

..If you can't see an obvious difference between the Quantum and Classical worlds, then it is only by choice.

There is no such 'Quantum' or 'Classical' world. What we call the Quantum and Classical worlds are fully integrated one into the other. There is only one world. Everything is made of fields appearing as 'material' reality.

If you wish to believe that the mystic transcends nature, then it must exists outside of nature.

I never said that. I said that the mystic transcends perceptual reality, not nature. The goal of the mystic is to attain union with nature, not overcome it.

If you want to believe that matter is only energy, and a chair is not a material chair, then you are a slave to your own false equivocations.

Show me the 'material' you refer to. I thought we agreed that what we think of as materiality is our perception of the world.

You want to believe in the existence of another reality so bad, that you are willing to semantically change the nature of the reality that does exist.

Try to understand that science itself is what is superimposing it's conceptual frameworks over nature in a manner that does not see the nature of reality, but only it's characteristics and behavior. The mystical view sees things just as they are, without superimposing any kind of model or belief system over reality. In fact, it removes all conceptual frameworks by dissolving the subject/object split in the mind. IOW, there is no 'other' reality; consciousness is transformed in such a way that what we thought to be the case, is not actually the case. What we thought to be a 'material' world is in reality only our perception of it as such, and the ordinary world is then understood to be none other than the miraculous world. They are not two, but one and the same. We don't see that because of how the mind is so highly conditioned to see it in 'rational' terms. But when we attempt to apply Reason to nature, we always end up in paradox, because, as I mentioned, nature is bigger than Reason. Nature will never fit into the nice neat little box of Reason because it is not a thing that can be dissected, but something alive and conscious.

You are even questioning existence and self awareness, which are both perceptions. Both can be objectively verified, without the need for any cognitive "wo-wo".

Where do you see a 'self' that is aware and exists? I see only awareness and existence, but no agent of awareness or existence called 'I'.

Do you believe that a material world exist, whether we can perceive it or not?

We can only see the world as being material via perception.

Do you believe that you can transcend your own subjective perspective?

Once the subject/object split is dissolved, there is no longer any such perspective. 'Subjective perspective' is just a construct of the mind.

Do you believe that a mystical reality exists?

Yes, it is the same as our everyday reality. There is not an 'ordinary reality' over here, and a 'mystical reality' over there. The consciousness which is dreaming and that which is awake is the same consciousness.

We know that matter at the Quantum level is composed mostly of empty space. Does this mean that when we look or touch anything in the material world, that we are seeing and touching mostly empty space?

As I understand it, what we are 'touching' and sensing as 'material' is the repellant force of electrons.

How is your perspective relevant to the scientific perspective?

The perspective of science is a highly conditioned perspective operating against the background of unconditioned consciousness. Unconditioned consciousness is no particular perspective.

And, finally, is "Pure consciousness" the same as "Absolute awareness"?

Not sure what you mean here. 'Pure consciousness' just means 'clear', and clarity is infinite. Being infinitely clear, it is no-thing, out of which The Universe appears. The Universe, being Every-thing, is not just an absolute, but The Absolute, since there is no relative 'other' to which it can be compared. So in the Hindu (Vedantist) view, it is said that:

"The Universe is [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass [ie; 'conditioned mind'] of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivekenanda

"What I see and what science sees are one and the same". I'm afraid that science do not state the obvious, and then conclude with the ridiculous. The rest is simply more "wo wo", that makes sense only to those that really want it to. It is certainly your right to believe in anything you want to, but it is not your right to create your own logic to support it.

The mystical view also includes the scientific view, since the scientific view is in consciousness. So there is really no conflict here. The seeming conflict comes from the scientific side, which cannot incorporate the mystical view due to its conditioning, at least not until an epiphany occurs in the mind of the scientist, which is occurring more and more these days. Goswami, Klafatos, Penrose, Hagelin, Capra, Sheldrake, and a host of other scientists have made the transition towards a universal view of reality that sees the Universe as conscious, alive, and intelligent.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Perhaps you should stop puffing yourself up to appear larger than you actually are. No one is impressed.

If you really understood the 'anecdote', you might understand the true nature of chi, rather than just its utility.

I am not "puffing myself up". You are merely very ignorant and all too willing to believe in woo. I understood the anecdote, it merely confirmed that you have no clue. I understand chi much better than you ever will. You want it to be something that it isn't .

 

[godnotgod]

I needs far more than just some hearsay of some mystics of “transcendence”.

You have not provide any evidence to this mystical woo, except a boatload of fallacies and wishful thinking.

When you burn your finger on a hot stove, is there any doubt of the experience?

When the escaped prisoner in Plato's Cave saw the Sun for the first time, was he delusional?

You continue to label the mystical view as just so much 'woo woo', but you never come inside to taste of it's offering. The mystical view is like a refreshing bubbling mountain spring. You can stop to partake of its waters, or simply move on. It makes no difference to the bubbling spring, which happily goes on bubbling away. But if you should take the time to experience the 'taste of the Infinite' for yourself, you will be forever changed. There is no going back once you have caught even a glimpse. I cannot convince you of anything, nor do I want to; you must experience it firsthand for yourself. Or, you can just go on in total denial. It's OK either way.

 

[godnotgod]

I am not "puffing myself up". You are merely very ignorant and all too willing to believe in woo. I understood the anecdote, it merely confirmed that you have no clue. I understand chi much better than you ever will. You want it to be something that it isn't .

Sorry, but I am not the one making things up. All of the evidence I have seen from other sources say that chi is a conscious and intelligent life force. That's all. But you have eviscerated it and reduced it to a mere utility.

If you are not puffing yourself up, why is it so important to you to advertise your brand of martial art as superior to aikido? Don't you think that rather childish? If I were your teacher in your dojo, I would toss you around like a rag doll until you were humbled. Then you would be ready. Not until.

(You probably won't watch this excellent video because you think you already know all about it.)

 

[gnostic]

When you burn your finger on a hot stove, is there any doubt of the experience?

When the escaped prisoner in Plato's Cave saw the Sun for the first time, was he delusional?

You continue to label the mystical view as just so much 'woo woo', but you never come inside to taste of it's offering. The mystical view is like a refreshing bubbling mountain spring. You can stop to partake of its waters, or simply move on. It makes no difference to the bubbling spring, which happily goes on bubbling away. But if you should take the time to experience the 'taste of the Infinite' for yourself, you will be forever changed. There is no going back once you have caught even a glimpse. I cannot convince you of anything, nor do I want to; you must experience it firsthand for yourself. Or, you can just go on in total denial. It's OK either way.

Neither of your two examples are “mystical”.

And the prisoner and cave example, again?

It was a stupid example the first time you have presented it the first time, and it doesn’t get any better bringing it up again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, but I am not the one making things up. All of the evidence I have seen from other sources say that chi is a conscious and intelligent life force. That's all. But you have eviscerated it and reduced it to a mere utility.

If you are not puffing yourself up, why is it so important to you to advertise your brand of martial art as superior to aikido? Don't you think that rather childish? If I were your teacher in your dojo, I would toss you around like a rag doll until you were humbled. Then you would be ready. Not until.

(You probably wron't watch this excellent video because you think you already know all about it.)

Please, you found woo sources that disagree with me. So what? And you admitted to being totally ignorant when it came to the martial arts. There is a very good reason that aikido is not very well respected in the martial arts world. Did you forget the example of the kiai master already?

 

[godnotgod]

Neither of your two examples are “mystical”.

And the prisoner and cave example?

It was a stupid example the first time you have presented it the first time, and it doesn’t get any better bringing it up again.

At this point, gnostic, if I were to take the time to explain it to you, you would only be even further away from understanding. So I will just have to continue in my stupidity, and leave the ball in your court. Consider it 'a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night', if and when you do achieve a breakthrough, which will eventually occur because of your resistance.

Wishing you a joyful awakening...

Cheers

 

[Subduction Zone]

At this point, gnostic, if I were to take the time to explain it to you, you would only be even further away from understanding. So I will just have to continue in my stupidity, and leave the ball in your court. Consider it 'a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night', if and when you do achieve a breakthrough, which will eventually occur because of your resistance.

Wishing you a joyful awakening...

Cheers

You made an error that was rather stupid. He did not say that you were stupid. Learn the difference.

 

[godnotgod]

Please, you found woo sources that disagree with me. So what? And you admitted to being totally ignorant when it came to the martial arts. There is a very good reason that aikido is not very well respected in the martial arts world. Did you forget the example of the kiai master already?

You think you understand the reason, but you are wrong. Aikido doesn't need to prove anything as you seem to need to. You're making a big fuss over what was a simple principle involving the hara.

I never admitted to any such ignorance of the martial arts. You're just puffing yourself up again.

What I found was an authentic source which proves that your view of aikido as 'woo' is sadly mistaken.

Does the fact that aikido came out of the samurai tradition tell you anything?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You think you understand the reason, but you are wrong. Aikido doesn't need to prove anything as you seem to need to. You're making a big fuss over what was a simple principle involving the hara.

I never admitted to any such ignorance of the martial arts. You're just puffing yourself up again.

What I found was an authentic source which proves that your view of aikido as 'woo' is sadly mistaken.

Does the fact that aikido came out of the samurai tradition tell you anything?

You continually demonstrate amazing ignorance. Not just about the sciences, but now in regards to the martial arts as well. You only proved that you do not have a clue.

 

[godnotgod]

You made an error that was rather stupid. He did not say that you were stupid. Learn the difference.

Ah, but I insist that the 'stupid error' is, in fact, yours. You see, I did not refer to myself as 'stupid'; I referred to my stupidity. Learn the difference.

Such an error in combat could cost you your life.

 

[gnostic]

At this point, gnostic, if I were to take the time to explain it to you, you would only be even further away from understanding. So I will just have to continue in my stupidity, and leave the ball in your court. Consider it 'a small sweetmeat for the eyes of night', if and when you do achieve a breakthrough, which will eventually occur because of your resistance.

Wishing you a joyful awakening...

Cheers

If you wanted to teach me, you have definitely gone the wrong about it.

If anything your arrogance and twisting things around, have made mysticism, particularly your version, less than appealing.

No, I will take that back. You have made mysticism extremely off-putting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ah, but I insist that the 'stupid error' is, in fact, yours. You see, I did not refer to myself as 'stupid'; I referred to my stupidity. Learn the difference.

Such an error in combat could cost you your life.

Now instead of learning from your error you compound it. That is prideful and in combat would be your downfall.

You really should take a few years studying martial arts. But believers in woo generally tend to be dilletants and barely scrape the surface.

 

[godnotgod]

You continually demonstrate amazing ignorance. Not just about the sciences, but now in regards to the martial arts as well. You only proved that you do not have a clue.

I have provided you more than a clue with the posted video. I put stock in what it says, and not in your iobvious gnorance about and uninformed denigration of aikido.

I doubt if you even took the time to watch it.

We're off-topic here, so I will end this part of the discussion as largely irrelevant. You, OTOH, can go on with your offensive bleating if it gratifies you for some silly reason.

Cheers