The Water Below and Above the Expanse

[YoursTrue]

Okay, short explanation. Liquid water is heavy, but water in the gaseous phase is light.

Yes, fantastic.

The density of a gas is directly related to its atomic weight. That is what the Ideal Gas Law tells us. If you remember what a mole is in chemistry that is the number of molecules necessary so that the mass of a mole in grams is equal to the atomic weight of the molecule involved. Oxygen for example has an atomic weight of roughly 32. Water on the other hand has an atomic weight of 18. And nitrogen is a bout 28. You can see that water has a much lower atomic weight than those other two. Many people make the mistake of thinking that humid air is less dense than dry air. As you can see the atomic weights tell us that it is the other way around.

So warm humid air at ground level will rise. It will continue to rise even if it is the same temperature as the surrounding air. As it rises it cools, once again one needs to refer to the Ideal Gas Law. PV = nRT. Where P is the Pressure, V is the volume, n is the amount, R is the Ideal Gas Constant, and T is the temperature. Air pressure drops as one goes up, less air above you means lower air pressure. To balance that out the temperature drops too. Eventually the air is too cool for the water in it to remain in the gaseous state. Water condenses, releasing some heat in the process so which means that it will not all suddenly condense at once. And the water droplets form clouds. There is a balancing act between the liquid water in the clouds weighing them down and the gaseous water still in the air lifting the mass up.

Any way you look at it, it's fantastic. Insofar as I am concerned. Thanks for explanation. I'll try to think about it when the humidity goes up in my apartment and I need to turn on the a/c. Not making light of it, but it is fantastic. Maybe -- if I live forever -- I will like to take a closer look at this.

 

[YoursTrue]

Okay, short explanation. Liquid water is heavy, but water in the gaseous phase is light. The density of a gas is directly related to its atomic weight. That is what the Ideal Gas Law tells us. If you remember what a mole is in chemistry that is the number of molecules necessary so that the mass of a mole in grams is equal to the atomic weight of the molecule involved. Oxygen for example has an atomic weight of roughly 32. Water on the other hand has an atomic weight of 18. And nitrogen is a bout 28. You can see that water has a much lower atomic weight than those other two. Many people make the mistake of thinking that humid air is less dense than dry air. As you can see the atomic weights tell us that it is the other way around.

So warm humid air at ground level will rise. It will continue to rise even if it is the same temperature as the surrounding air. As it rises it cools, once again one needs to refer to the Ideal Gas Law. PV = nRT. Where P is the Pressure, V is the volume, n is the amount, R is the Ideal Gas Constant, and T is the temperature. Air pressure drops as one goes up, less air above you means lower air pressure. To balance that out the temperature drops too. Eventually the air is too cool for the water in it to remain in the gaseous state. Water condenses, releasing some heat in the process so which means that it will not all suddenly condense at once. And the water droplets form clouds. There is a balancing act between the liquid water in the clouds weighing them down and the gaseous water still in the air lifting the mass up.

Yes! That's when I learned in school that when the water condensation gets too heavy in the cloud, that's when it falls back to the earth. Right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, fantastic.

Any way you look at it, it's fantastic. Insofar as I am concerned. Thanks for explanation. I'll try to think about it when the humidity goes up in my apartment and I need to turn on the a/c. Not making light of it, but it is fantastic. Maybe -- if I live forever -- I will like to take a closer look at this.

It is not really that fantastic if one can do the math and understand a very simple equation. No calculus necessary. Just calculate the differences in relative humidity of two air masses and the volume of them and you will understand how much water a cloud can hold.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes! That's when I learned in school that when the water condensation gets too heavy in the cloud, that's when it falls back to the earth. Right?

It usually sheds that excessive weight as rain.

 

[YoursTrue]

It usually sheds that excessive weight as rain.

Yes -- and I still think it's fantastic to think that these beautiful fluffy clouds can contain so much weight as they "float" in the air -- until, of course, the ultimate happens and the cycle starts over again. Nope -- while physics can be ascertained, the cycle is amazing.

 

[Audie]

Okay, short explanation. Liquid water is heavy, but water in the gaseous phase is light. The density of a gas is directly related to its atomic weight. That is what the Ideal Gas Law tells us. If you remember what a mole is in chemistry that is the number of molecules necessary so that the mass of a mole in grams is equal to the atomic weight of the molecule involved. Oxygen for example has an atomic weight of roughly 32. Water on the other hand has an atomic weight of 18. And nitrogen is a bout 28. You can see that water has a much lower atomic weight than those other two. Many people make the mistake of thinking that humid air is less dense than dry air. As you can see the atomic weights tell us that it is the other way around.

So warm humid air at ground level will rise. It will continue to rise even if it is the same temperature as the surrounding air. As it rises it cools, once again one needs to refer to the Ideal Gas Law. PV = nRT. Where P is the Pressure, V is the volume, n is the amount, R is the Ideal Gas Constant, and T is the temperature. Air pressure drops as one goes up, less air above you means lower air pressure. To balance that out the temperature drops too. Eventually the air is too cool for the water in it to remain in the gaseous state. Water condenses, releasing some heat in the process so which means that it will not all suddenly condense at once. And the water droplets form clouds. There is a balancing act between the liquid water in the clouds weighing them down and the gaseous water still in the air lifting the mass up.

The atmosphere weigh trillions of tons

Why oh why do it float around ???
Instead of squishing us like a bug.

Its a miracle

 

[Twilight Hue]

The atmosphere weigh trillions of tons

Why oh why do it float around ???
Instead of squishing us like a bug.

Its a miracle

Which is why it's so entertaining to read the story of Noah's flood using science.

Particularly as the firmament unleashed all that water in the way the Bible describes, Noah and his family would be boiled alive like a lobster inside nature's pressure cooker.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which is why it's so entertaining to read the story of Noah's flood using science.

Particularly as the firmament unleashed all that water in the way the Bible describes, Noah and his family would be boiled alive like a lobster inside nature's pressure cooker.

From above or below or a combination of both, they all cook Noah and family. The amount of ground water is very limited, plus it is in the ground for a reason. It no more rises up on its own than rain falls up. There are artesian wells where the source of water is higher than the surface of the ground, but those do not exist everywhere. The only solution, very deep water that would also be very very hot. And for water above the atmosphere can only hold inches of rain water. Not thousands of feet. It would have to come from space. And an exploding rocket on a launch pad gives you a good idea how much energy is released in just a small amount of mass coming out of orbit.

 

[Audie]

Which is why it's so entertaining to read the story of Noah's flood using science.

Particularly as the firmament unleashed all that water in the way the Bible describes, Noah and his family would be boiled alive like a lobster inside nature's pressure cooker.

If water reached the top of everest,
what would the air pressure at sea level be.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If water reached the top of everest,
what would the air pressure at sea level be.

A bit less than the pressure at the bottom of the Marianas Trench if I remember correctly. Yep, not that much, but still,, not too healthy:

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Genesis 1

According to chapter one of Genesis, there is an expanse that separates water from water as follows:
(Bold emphasis ours)

6 God said, (to the source), "become" (hayah) an expanse in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water." 7 And God made (asah - עָשָׂה) the expanse and it separated between the water that was below the expanse and the water that was above (al - עַל) the expanse, and it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven, and it was evening, and it was morning, a second day.
(Translation - Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg)

Now when God made (asah - עָשָׂה), I.e. completed the expanse (Heaven), this was the first heaven. For example, according to chapter one of Genesis, the birds fly across the expanse (heaven) of Heavens as follows:

20 And God said, "Let the waters swarm a swarming of living creatures, and let fowl fly over the earth, across the expanse of the heavens."
(Translation - Rabbi A.J. Rosenberg)

Therefore verse twenty is the first heaven/sky (expanse) of heavens which the birds fly across, and verses 6-8 is the same expanse (heaven/sky) that separates the water below, I.e. the Earth's oceans, from the water above. But what are the waters above the expanse (heaven/sky)? Firstly the concept of heaven (sky) or heavens can be described as the space above the earth, although there are no real boundaries as to where heaven (sky) ends or space begins. Secondly, because there are no boundaries, the expanse can be described as the atmosphere that starts from the surface of the Earth and includes the following seven layers:

● Troposphere
○ This layer is on average it is 7.5 miles in height from the surface of the earth toward the sky
○ Nearly all the atmospheric water vapour (99%) is found in this layer and is where the majority of the weather takes place
● Stratosphere
○ This extends upwards from the tropopause to about 32 miles and holds 19 percent of the atmosphere's gases but very little water vapour
○ The ozone layer is found within the stratosphere. Ozone molecules in this layer absorb high-energy ultraviolet (UV) light from the Sun, converting the UV energy into heat
● Mesosphere
○ This layer extends upward to a height of about 53 miles above the earth
○ The gases in the mesosphere are thick enough to slow down meteors hurtling into the atmosphere, where they burn up, leaving fiery trails in the night sky
● Thermosphere
○ This layer extends from about 56 miles to between 311 to 621 miles above the earth's surface
○ The Temperatures in the upper thermosphere can range from about 500° C (932° F) to 2,000° C (3,632° F) or higher
● Ionosphere
○ This layer is located within the thermosphere and extends from about 56 to 190 miles above the earth's surface, and is made of electrically charged (ionized) gas particles
● Exosphere
○ This is the outermost layer of the atmosphere. It extends from about 375 miles to 6,200 miles above the surface of the earth
○ In this layer, atoms and molecules escape into space and satellites orbit the earth

From this, it is important to note that the seven layers of the atmosphere can be defined as an expanse, but are any of these layers separating the waters above, I.e. in the universe? Firstly verses 6-8 are still part of the early stages of God's creation. For example, concerning the water below the expanse, the following information can be considered:

A team of scientists at Arizona State University (ASU), led by Peter Buseck, has come up with a new proposal. The new peer-reviewed paper was published in the Journal of Geophysical Research: Planets on October 9, 2018.

The new research suggests that Earth’s water came from both rocky material, such as asteroids, and from the vast cloud of dust and gas remaining after the sun’s formation, called the solar nebula.

Earth’s ocean water is similar to that found in asteroids. That’s one reason scientists have long thought that most earthly water came from an asteroid bombardment in the days of the early solar system.

Also, Samples from asteroid Itokawa collected by a Japanese space probe suggest that Earth's water may have been created by the sun.

This water may have rained on the fledgling Earth in the form of dust grains produced by the interaction of the solar wind, the stream of charged particles emanating from the sun, with various bodies in the solar system, a new study suggests.

"The solar winds are streams of mostly hydrogen and helium ions which flow constantly from the sun out into space," Luke Daly, a planetary scientist at the University of Glasgow in the U.K., and a lead author of the new paper said in a statement. "When those hydrogen ions hit an airless surface like an asteroid or a spaceborne dust particle, they penetrate a few tens of nanometers [one inch has 24.5 million nanometers] below the surface, where they can affect the chemical composition of the rock."
(Earth's earliest water may have come from solar wind and space rocks)

And astronomers have discovered the largest and oldest mass of water ever detected in the universe — a gigantic, 12-billion-year-old cloud harbouring 140 trillion times more water than all of Earth's oceans combined.

The cloud of water vapour surrounds a supermassive black hole called a quasar located 12 billion light-years from Earth. The discovery shows that water has been prevalent in the universe for nearly its entire existence, researchers said.

"Because the light we are seeing left this quasar more than 12 billion years ago, we are seeing water that was present only some 1.6 billion years after the beginning of the universe," said study co-author Alberto Bolatto, of the University of Maryland, in a statement. "This discovery pushes the detection of water one billion years closer to the Big Bang than any previous find."
(Astronomers Find Largest, Oldest Mass of Water in Universe)

Therefore based on the above information shows that in the early formation of the Earth, the mesosphere, which is the layer where the gases are thick enough to slow down meteors and cause them to burn up, and possibly the other layers of the Earth's atmosphere could have contributed to the amount of water upon the Earth, which some scientists suggest was caused by asteroids and the cloud of dust and gas remaining after the sun’s formation.

Conclusion

The Bible shows that God called the first heaven/sky an expanse, which extends upwards from the surface of the Earth and includes all seven layers of the Earth's atmosphere, and that below the expanse is water, I.e. the Earth’s oceans, and above the expanse, which is the second heaven is also water that was abundant in the universe during early formation of the Earth.

Cute. Lol

 

[Heyo]

If water reached the top of everest,
what would the air pressure at sea level be.

About one atmosphere.

(Because "sea level" would be top of Mount Everest, but that's not what you meant, is it? Misleading formulation.)

 

[SarahJackson]

The sky is blue just as the water is that comes down from it. The oceans are blue and deep and wide. It is easy to see that we are trapped in between water that is above us and below us if you think like the child.

 

[Soandso]

Which is why it's so entertaining to read the story of Noah's flood using science.

Particularly as the firmament unleashed all that water in the way the Bible describes, Noah and his family would be boiled alive like a lobster inside nature's pressure cooker.

Yah, the heat problem. That's not to mention all the heat generated from the mantle of the earth warping and twisting around to form the continents we have now within the timespan of 40 days and 40 nights instead of billions of years

Flaws in a Young-Earth Cooling Mechanism | National Center for Science Education

Modern young-earth creationist theories invoke huge quantities of heat — enough to boil most of the oceans and melt the earth's rocks.

ncse.ngo

Modern young-earth creationist theories invoke huge quantities of heat — enough to boil most of the oceans and melt the earth's rocks. For instance, John Baumgardner has suggested that rapid subduction of the oceanic plates caused the Flood and accomplished all the continental drift within a few years at most. But he calculates that this process would have generated 1028 joules of heat:

"If released near the earth's surface, this amount of energy is sufficient to melt a layer of silicate rock 12 km thick or the boil away a layer of water 25 km deep over the entire earth. It is equivalent to the kinetic energy of 170 000 asteroids, each 10 km in diameter and traveling at 15 km/s." (Baumgardner 1990: 37)

Yah... That much energy would generate the same amount of heat as the planet being bombarded by 170,000 asteroids that are each over 6 miles wide moving over 9 miles a second. That's a lot of heat

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yah, the heat problem. That's not to mention all the heat generated from the mantle of the earth warping and twisting around to form the continents we have now within the timespan of 40 days and 40 nights instead of billions of years

Flaws in a Young-Earth Cooling Mechanism | National Center for Science Education

Modern young-earth creationist theories invoke huge quantities of heat — enough to boil most of the oceans and melt the earth's rocks.

ncse.ngo

Modern young-earth creationist theories invoke huge quantities of heat — enough to boil most of the oceans and melt the earth's rocks. For instance, John Baumgardner has suggested that rapid subduction of the oceanic plates caused the Flood and accomplished all the continental drift within a few years at most. But he calculates that this process would have generated 1028 joules of heat:

"If released near the earth's surface, this amount of energy is sufficient to melt a layer of silicate rock 12 km thick or the boil away a layer of water 25 km deep over the entire earth. It is equivalent to the kinetic energy of 170 000 asteroids, each 10 km in diameter and traveling at 15 km/s." (Baumgardner 1990: 37)

Yah... That much energy would generate the same amount of heat as the planet being bombarded by 170,000 asteroids that are each over 6 miles wide moving over 9 miles a second. That's a lot of heat

It should be "The Heat Problems". If the water was orbiting or from deep in the Earth there would be a ton of heat involved. There is on the order of a mile of limestone and making that in a year would cook the Ark. The proposed rapid nuclear decay of uranium, thorium,potassium and other elements in a year, and the super plate tectonics that you mentioned would all release a ton of energy. Add them all up and we might be vaporizing the crust.


When you take events that normally take place very slowly and intensify them on the order of a hundred million the heat released becomes very noticeable.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If water reached the top of everest,
what would the air pressure at sea level be.

Good point. I doubt the ecosystem under the water wouldn't be too happy about the sudden change of scene.

 

[Audie]

Good point. I doubt the ecosystem under the water wouldn't be too happy about the sudden change of scene.

You were supposed to do the math

 

[Twilight Hue]

You were supposed to do the math

I'm bad at math. Gawd awful even.

 

[gnostic]

I did not say there is "tons of water in space," as you allege I said. I said the clouds contain tons of water. That's a lot of water in the sky. (not space...) It's within the atmosphere. You want to make a big deal about space vs. the sky and atmosphere where the clouds are? Go ahead, I probably won't join you. Have a good one.
Oh, there MAY be water in 'space.' I don't know. But I do believe from what I read that there are tons of water in clouds. Tons. Yet they float in the sky.

Yes the clouds are still in the sky. I don't know that much about clouds except when they get dark it could mean a storm is coming. But I have read that they contain tons of water which I find fantastic since these clouds "float," if the term can be used, in the sky.

YoursTrue.

You and I know that rain, rainstorms, hail and snow come from the clouds, but it is clear that when the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were composed from the 6th century and later, none of the authors or editors understood that natural phenomena of the clouds.

In every instances, when rain or hail or snow were mentioned, it never same it come from clouds...it always say it was caused by God or like with the flood (Genesis 7:11), where it come from the “windows of heavens” being opened, the water “above the sky” or “above the firmament.

Genesis 7:11 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.

What genesis 7:11 is saying, is that the rain came from above the firmament, vault, dome or expanse, hence beyond the sun, moon and stars.

In Job 38:22, the passage doesn't say the hail and snow come from clouds, but from storehouses:

​

Job 38:22 22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,​

or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,​

​

Now, you may say that the “windows” & “storehouses“ are metaphors for clouds, but these would be very weak arguments, with no evidence to support such claims, because no where else in the Old Testament do it ever say rain were brought about by clouds.

You are making blind assumptions that the people wrote Genesis understood that rain come rainclouds, but clearly they have no such knowledge about the nature of clouds and the nature of rain.

 

[Audie]

YoursTrue.

You and I know that rain, rainstorms, hail and snow come from the clouds, but it is clear that when the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) were composed from the 6th century and later, none of the authors or editors understood that natural phenomena of the clouds.

In every instances, when rain or hail or snow were mentioned, it never same it come from clouds...it always say it was caused by God or like with the flood (Genesis 7:11), where it come from the “windows of heavens” being opened, the water “above the sky” or “above the firmament.



In Job 38:22, the passage doesn't say the hail and snow come from clouds, but from storehouses:



Now, you may say that the “windows” & “storehouses“ are metaphors for clouds, but these would be very weak arguments, with no evidence to support such claims, because no where else in the Old Testament do it ever say rain were brought about by clouds.

You are making blind assumptions that the people wrote Genesis understood that rain come rainclouds, but clearly they have no such knowledge about the nature of clouds and the nature of rain.

They didnt need to know anyyhing as
the account was dictated by god.

Why he got it wrong isnt explained.