The Western Misappropriation of Tantra

[NobodyYouKnow]

...and other sacred practices.

This thread comes on the back of the 'ganja' one, and a PM I received to make it...I am still unsure about how I am going to 'make it'....but I thought if I started, it will happen...

Most of my core philosophies and those surrounding the practice of Tantra can be found in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/interview-place/157879-interview-tantric-shaiva.html

I have touched on this in that thread, but it was felt that didn't go far enough.

I don't know if it is the Western 'mindset' or what it is...but we are always seeking instant sensual gratification and if a 'religion' can provide it for us, all the better.

So, 'Tantra' has become all about sex, drugs and acquiring Siddhis. I mean, such practices are indeed included in Tantra, but it forms a very minute, limited part of it....it's not 'all of the Law'...only 'part of the Law'....yet most Western people jump on this and go 'all this is Tantra'...

They get all horny, light candles, put on some soft sitar music and say to their partner 'let's do some Tantra....like in the Kama Sutra'...this is not and I repeat not Tantra....it is still just sex!

Some people smoke dope and say 'I am going to smoke pot now because Lord Shiva does it...it may make me get closer to Him'....this is not Tantra, it is just smoking pot.

Tantra is a very intense and involved (often confusing) spiritual/religious practice. It takes years to even scratch the surface and lifetimes upon lifetimes to gain any form of 'mastery' over it whatsoever. It's not something you can practice whenever you 'feel like it', just to impress your sexual partner...it just doesn't work that way.

Tantric sex should only be performed by the very advanced practitioner and even then, there are certain strict guidelines, practices and rituals surrounding it. It's not 'let's have sex and call it Tantra'.

It's the same with any practices surrounding the raising of Kundalini...it was much better when all of this information was kept hidden and only available to the most advanced practitioners....because the Swamis of old were afraid that what is happening now, would happen....ignorant people just jumping to the end of the story to get the 'juicy bits' but totally ignoring how much time, effort and energy goes in to actually realising it.

They see something that fits in to their way of thinking and immediately appropriate it out of context...'I have sex, so now I don't have to feel guilty about it because Tantra says it's okay...' that is a cop out. Either engage in coitus...or not, just don't call it 'Tantra' when it is not...either smoke ganja or not...just don't say you are smoking it because of one obscure ritual that 'allows' you to smoke it.

Stop seeking religious justification for all your habits....they are still habits...and attributing them to Tantra is just another attachment and a false justification for having it.

There, how did I do?

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

They get all horny, light candles, put on some soft sitar music and say to their partner 'let's do some Tantra....like in the Kama Sutra'...this is not and I repeat not Tantra....it is still just sex!

Some people smoke dope and say 'I am going to smoke pot now because Lord Shiva does it...it may make me get closer to Him'....this is not Tantra, it is just smoking pot.

Tantra is a very intense and involved (often confusing) spiritual/religious practice. It takes years to even scratch the surface and lifetimes upon lifetimes to gain any form of 'mastery' over it whatsoever. It's not something you can practice whenever you 'feel like it', just to impress your sexual partner...it just doesn't work that way.

I don't necessarily disagree with you (that tAntrika texts are often misused for personal reasons, especially by westerners), but some actions described in tantra-s are in my opinion adhArmika regardless of how ritualistic or masterful an individual is. For example, shivayogi recommends that vAmachArI-s rape crocodiles for spiritual progress in his siddhAntashikhAmaNi (a vIrashaiva text which you should be familiar with) and abhinavagupta (one of the, if not the most important AchArya of kashmIr shaivism) recommends that sAdhaka-s on the kaula tantra path rape prostitutes and offer meat and wine to placate the trikadevI-s (parA, parAparA and aparA) in his tantrasAra. Then again, knowing this forum, I'm probably going to be labeled as a narrow-minded, elitist, vaiShNava for disapproving of those practices. Oh well, .

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I don't necessarily disagree with you (that tAntrika texts are often misused for personal reasons, especially by westerners), but some actions described in tantra-s are in my opinion adhArmika regardless of how ritualistic or masterful an individual is. For example, shivayogi recommends that vAmachArI-s rape crocodiles for spiritual progress in his siddhAntashikhAmaNi (a vIrashaiva text which you should be familiar with) and abhinavagupta (one of the, if not the most important AchArya of kashmIr shaivism) recommends that sAdhaka-s on the kaula tantra path rape prostitutes and offer meat and wine to placate the trikadevI-s (parA, parAparA and aparA) in his tantrasAra. Then again, knowing this forum, I'm probably going to be labeled as a narrow-minded, elitist, vaiShNava for disapproving of those practices. Oh well, .

No, I fully agree with you!

Even Aghoris offer whisky and beef as offerings to Lord Shiva...oh yeah, if anybody manages to rape a crocodile, they have my full blessings!

Still, there are certain Tantric practices that even I 'draw the line at'.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that the Divine Union between Shiva and Shakti is more a metaphorical one.

If one really wants to go into it, it has more to do with the expression of cosmic forces and the juxtaposition of omnipotence vs omnipresence more than two entities (Divine or otherwise) just having 'sex'.

I fully understand the adharmic practices and that's something I have had to 'live with' in relation to associating with my fellow Hindus.

It's a tough path to tread when your beliefs are 'adharmic', yet all the dharmic schools don't really match your beliefs either...then you wonder if you are actually 'Hindu' or not....but you know you are.

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Philomath]

I don't even know what Tantra is so I'm completely out of the loop

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I don't even know what Tantra is so I'm completely out of the loop

If you don't need to know what Tantra is, remaining 'out of the loop' is possibly the best thing ever. I often wish I knew nothing about it and I would be much better off. lol

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I think the Tantric Practitioner's understandable need for secrecy is part of what fuels the fire. Many in the west would consider such secrecy as evidence of something salacious going on. So this is treated like evidence that all those stories about sex are true and that's the "real" tantra. Because Sex in the west is traditionally a source of shame, westerners cannot conceive of a culture that is not ashamed of it and even uses it as a metaphor for communion with God (Or communion of the various aspects of the divine.)

So it in turn becomes a source of progressive sexual expression to say "I practice tantra. Arn't I so free and open minded?"

:camp:

 

[Philomath]

If you don't need to know what Tantra is, remaining 'out of the loop' is possibly the best thing ever. I often wish I knew nothing about it and I would be much better off. lol

Om Namah Shivay

I at least want to get a general idea of it...I don't need to know it's in depth practices lol.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I at least want to get a general idea of it...I don't need to know it's in depth practices lol.

If you peruse that thread I linked in the opening post, it gives the basic 'gist' of it. If you have any specific questions, you can ask there or here.

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Aupmanyav]

There, how did I do?
Om Namah Shivay

You have done it absolutely beautifully. Thanks, NYK, I doubt if anyone here could have done better.
Namah Shivaya.

@ Jaskiran: Shivayogi or Abhinavagupta were humans. They had their 'matas', they are welcome to that. Other people may differ. My 'mata' is that adharmic practices are forbidden in Hinduism, whatever the goal may be. Kalama Sutta, Buddha. Otherwise also, these are 'vamachara' practices, not meant for all.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I at least want to get a general idea of it...I don't need to know it's in depth practices lol.

I think you have a right to know. Tantric practices are abandonment of what keeps us attached to the world - the 5 m's - Pancha Makars - Madya (liquor), Mamsa (Non-vegetarian diet), Matsya (eating fish), Mudra (money), and Maithuna (sex). So, you keep a bottle of wine, perhaps imbibe some, and then think about what all it can lead to if you have more of it. That is one way to abandon it. Like that for other attachments also in quest of purity of thought.

The other much maligned left-hand practice is that of 'Aghore'. Practitioners ate the flesh of dead bodies and indulged in other such normally abhorant practices. But the idea was that of non-duality. That the flesh of dead humans is no different from that of other animals killed for food. Though it is generally taken as extreme and indulged in by some who may be renunciates to look at but may not be really so. Literally 'Aghore' means 'Not extreme'.

These are known as 'Vamachara', left-hand practice, in contrast to the main-line practices like Bhakti, Karma, and Jnana Yoga. I hope my presentation is true. Others are welcome to correct it.

 

[JaiMaaDurga]

Namaste,

The "5 M's" which so often become the focus of discussions of Tantra, have had many
interpretations over the years; yet the overriding thread throughout is to remove
barriers between the sadhak and the goal.. in cultures which do not associate feelings
of abhorrence, revulsion, disgust, etc. with alcohol, meat-eating, sex outside of
marriage, etc. there is no internal shift that would result from these, whether
symbolically or literally.

Do not forget also that since almost from its beginnings, Tantra has had those who
have twisted and falsified its goals and methods, for purposes of personal gain, or
sometimes, as a result of incomplete understanding by one who was not suitable to
the path of Tantra in the first place. What should also be understood is that this in
no way troubles a genuine lineage of Tantra, as it is not meant to be a path for
everyone, and the less curiosity-seekers that show up on the doorstep, the better

JAI MATA DI

 

[Nyingjé Tso]

Vanakkam,

Thank you Nobody, just thank you. This is what I think too. Tantra is much misused in the west, and it horrify me every time I see stupid stuff like "Secret of tantrik sex: get the best orgasm with the science of chakric kundalini !" or "tantra couple conselling" (WTF is this one supposed to MEAN anyway ?) I am aware of some tantrik sadhana that I won't talk here, and heck, it's absolutely not easy or superficial like this load of bs...

In the west, tantra is widely known as "the indian art of having sex like a boss" and Shiva as the "completely high cool excuse to consume drugs".

It is terrible because it is a very hard, technical and serious path that require loads of study. But those people don't understand (or don't care) because after all, all they are looking for in the end are excuses...

Aum Namah Shivaya

 

[Tumah]

...and other sacred practices.

This thread comes on the back of the 'ganja' one, and a PM I received to make it...I am still unsure about how I am going to 'make it'....but I thought if I started, it will happen...

Most of my core philosophies and those surrounding the practice of Tantra can be found in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/interview-place/157879-interview-tantric-shaiva.html

I have touched on this in that thread, but it was felt that didn't go far enough.

I don't know if it is the Western 'mindset' or what it is...but we are always seeking instant sensual gratification and if a 'religion' can provide it for us, all the better.

So, 'Tantra' has become all about sex, drugs and acquiring Siddhis. I mean, such practices are indeed included in Tantra, but it forms a very minute, limited part of it....it's not 'all of the Law'...only 'part of the Law'....yet most Western people jump on this and go 'all this is Tantra'...

They get all horny, light candles, put on some soft sitar music and say to their partner 'let's do some Tantra....like in the Kama Sutra'...this is not and I repeat not Tantra....it is still just sex!

Some people smoke dope and say 'I am going to smoke pot now because Lord Shiva does it...it may make me get closer to Him'....this is not Tantra, it is just smoking pot.

Tantra is a very intense and involved (often confusing) spiritual/religious practice. It takes years to even scratch the surface and lifetimes upon lifetimes to gain any form of 'mastery' over it whatsoever. It's not something you can practice whenever you 'feel like it', just to impress your sexual partner...it just doesn't work that way.

Tantric sex should only be performed by the very advanced practitioner and even then, there are certain strict guidelines, practices and rituals surrounding it. It's not 'let's have sex and call it Tantra'.

It's the same with any practices surrounding the raising of Kundalini...it was much better when all of this information was kept hidden and only available to the most advanced practitioners....because the Swamis of old were afraid that what is happening now, would happen....ignorant people just jumping to the end of the story to get the 'juicy bits' but totally ignoring how much time, effort and energy goes in to actually realising it.

They see something that fits in to their way of thinking and immediately appropriate it out of context...'I have sex, so now I don't have to feel guilty about it because Tantra says it's okay...' that is a cop out. Either engage in coitus...or not, just don't call it 'Tantra' when it is not...either smoke ganja or not...just don't say you are smoking it because of one obscure ritual that 'allows' you to smoke it.

Stop seeking religious justification for all your habits....they are still habits...and attributing them to Tantra is just another attachment and a false justification for having it.

There, how did I do?

Om Namah Shivay

I can commiserate with your feelings here. What the West has done to the sacred study of Kaballah that was reserved for only the most advanced sages is an affront to study itself.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram :namaste

I can commiserate with your feelings here. What the West has done to the sacred study of Kaballah that was reserved for only the most advanced sages is an affront to study itself.

Another to commiserate with your feelings NYK and Tumah ,

having first met with tantra through Vajrayana Buddhism it wasnt long before I came accross the same predictable missconceptions ....'' Tantra that is all about sex isnt it ''....well actualy NO! ....'' but I read an article in the sunday suplement, which said (famous musician who I will not name ) says ....'' ...you dont get it do you , these people will say anything to get constant newspaper coverage ,

...infact they will do anything to get noticed , ..they need to feel special ...then there are other celebrities who addopt Buddhism one minute then the Kaballah the next , but continue to lead the same indulgent lifstyles as if taking on a religion as if it were as simple as putting on a new hat .

...yes, I am sure there is a genuine desire to find some sence of spiritual understanding , to find some peace in this hectic world , but the saddest truth is that in order to take some spiritual path in life one has to put down some of ones old preocupations in order to make room to take on any new understanding , saddly too many people think that that religious practices are some kind of ornament whith which to adorn oneself ... and the western mind likes trinkets and toys , and like children who are only interested in the cherry on the cake they missunderstand the true context of such practices .

What the West has done to the sacred study of Kaballah that was reserved for only the most advanced sages is an affront to study itself.

Dear Tumah ,
I have not read your link yet , and in ways do not want to , after seeing what the west has done to Buddhism where similar things have happened , I am sadened at the thought .
there are Buddhist schools here in the west who have established themselves in a very short time , they have drawn much attention which on one hand is good , but unfortunatly there is an other side to it which was not thought out so carefully ...yes , the western mind is perfectly capable of study but it does so with conditions , ...the western mind needs constant reward , so it seeks attainments , positions , qualifications ...it wants to be doing all the interlectual and impressive stuff and it wants to be seen doing it , the idea of years and years of practice and study dosent go down so well , there is a need for instant gratification ...

even with Buddhist tantra (which has its differences)it should only be taught to select pupils when their teacher thinks that they are ready , ....but in the west you can pay to attend an empowerment to practice something which you hardly understand ...and there is very little access to a fully qualified lama who is able to guide you through the whole system ... you can buy a book or CD which explains it all for you , but a CD can't descerrn when you need further instruction or guidance , ...no the CD just lulls the student into a false sence of security leaving the student feeling content in his ignorance ...
then on the back cover it says other CD's available in this series ....

When I first started practicing the groups were small and access to teachers was good , however over the years as Buddhism gained in popularity it also became comercial , then the arguments start , ...one shcool continues to do it as per tradition , another has its eye on financial gain , the temptation to aquire bigger better temples , to hold bigger better (more impersonal ) teachings , then there is the tendancy for the student to choose from a comprehensive and impressive menu ... which empowerments shall I take ? ....and if it is not on the menu here well there is allways another temple up the road , or heaven forbid you can even find instructions on the internet .

this is tantamount to self medication , Lord Buddha told his students to regard Dharma as medicine and to regard him as the physician , ....

but no the interlectual mind thinks so highly of itself that it beleives that no experienced physician is needed ....it thinks '' I will administer to my self '' ...

and as to the question sex and intoxication , it seems that some will go to all ends to find a way of justifying their own desire for indulgence ....

 

[Sumit]

...and other sacred practices.

This thread comes on the back of the 'ganja' one, and a PM I received to make it...I am still unsure about how I am going to 'make it'....but I thought if I started, it will happen...

Most of my core philosophies and those surrounding the practice of Tantra can be found in this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/interview-place/157879-interview-tantric-shaiva.html

I have touched on this in that thread, but it was felt that didn't go far enough.

I don't know if it is the Western 'mindset' or what it is...but we are always seeking instant sensual gratification and if a 'religion' can provide it for us, all the better.

So, 'Tantra' has become all about sex, drugs and acquiring Siddhis. I mean, such practices are indeed included in Tantra, but it forms a very minute, limited part of it....it's not 'all of the Law'...only 'part of the Law'....yet most Western people jump on this and go 'all this is Tantra'...

They get all horny, light candles, put on some soft sitar music and say to their partner 'let's do some Tantra....like in the Kama Sutra'...this is not and I repeat not Tantra....it is still just sex!

Some people smoke dope and say 'I am going to smoke pot now because Lord Shiva does it...it may make me get closer to Him'....this is not Tantra, it is just smoking pot.

Tantra is a very intense and involved (often confusing) spiritual/religious practice. It takes years to even scratch the surface and lifetimes upon lifetimes to gain any form of 'mastery' over it whatsoever. It's not something you can practice whenever you 'feel like it', just to impress your sexual partner...it just doesn't work that way.

Tantric sex should only be performed by the very advanced practitioner and even then, there are certain strict guidelines, practices and rituals surrounding it. It's not 'let's have sex and call it Tantra'.

It's the same with any practices surrounding the raising of Kundalini...it was much better when all of this information was kept hidden and only available to the most advanced practitioners....because the Swamis of old were afraid that what is happening now, would happen....ignorant people just jumping to the end of the story to get the 'juicy bits' but totally ignoring how much time, effort and energy goes in to actually realizing it.

They see something that fits in to their way of thinking and immediately appropriate it out of context...'I have sex, so now I don't have to feel guilty about it because Tantra says it's okay...' that is a cop out. Either engage in coitus...or not, just don't call it 'Tantra' when it is not...either smoke ganja or not...just don't say you are smoking it because of one obscure ritual that 'allows' you to smoke it.

Stop seeking religious justification for all your habits....they are still habits...and attributing them to Tantra is just another attachment and a false justification for having it.

There, how did I do?

Om Namah Shivay

It's always easy to go wrong If the subject is Tantra. Tantra have always been used for wrong purposes since ancient times. Vamamarga is not for everyone.
What you wrote above not only happen in west but here too. Most of the people who enter the field Tantra takes the wrong path after initial success, they use their powers for wrong purpose. Their are some tantriks in my city and their house is always crowded by people who wants to use tantra for their benefit like killing their enemies or attract someone. I myself have faced too much due to tantra.The image of tantriks are very bad here. I met two great pundits and asked them if they know someone who can teach me tantra but both were against it so I decided to learn myself. First one said he is against tantra and most of the people he know ruined their life due to tantra. Second pandit had some great powers, he by just looking at the face of person can tell every past incidence of person his friend and even relatives, he was devotee of Durga. When I asked him to find me someone who can teach me tantra, he said tantra is bad and you should not learn it.

Tantra deals with Bogha and Mokesh but Mokesh part is very very very hard to achieve. Many tantric deities have excess of Rajas and tamas in their nature and hence they always take more than they give to their shadhak. Even in their sadhna when they finally arrive near Sadhak, they demand for sexual relationship. Tantric method of kundali awakening is also dangerous but quick, when kundalani rises, temp of body rises very high due to extreme energy, strong fragrance of sandalwood and Asthagandh is felt. This process needs to be completed under guru who can initiate the process through shaktipaath deeksha and bhairavi or female tantrik. Kundalani awakening is only for those who can strictly follow Brahmacharya throughout their life. However opening energy centers/chakra is easy and everyone can do it. The process of rising kundalani can be completed safely by method described in Yogasutra of Patanjali but may take years of hard labor. Most of people who today claim that their kundalani is awakened lie. Tantra is hard path and that is why people believe Tantra as something related to sex because it's easy easy for them to grasp this form of tantra and most websites and books in west shows tantra as same. Also the popularity of text "Kaamasutra" responsible for it.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

It's always easy to go wrong If the subject is Tantra. Tantra have always been used for wrong purposes since ancient times. Vamamarga is not for everyone.
What you wrote above not only happen in west but here too. Most of the people who enter the field Tantra takes the wrong path after initial success, they use their powers for wrong purpose. Their are some tantriks in my city and their house is always crowded by people who wants to use tantra for their benefit like killing their enemies or attract someone. I myself have faced too much due to tantra.The image of tantriks are very bad here. I met two great pundits and asked them if they know someone who can teach me tantra but both were against it so I decided to learn myself. First one said he is against tantra and most of the people he know ruined their life due to tantra. Second pandit had some great powers, he by just looking at the face of person can tell every past incidence of person his friend and even relatives, he was devotee of Durga. When I asked him to find me someone who can teach me tantra, he said tantra is bad and you should not learn it.

Tantra deals with Bogha and Mokesh but Mokesh part is very very very hard to achieve. Many tantric deities have excess of Rajas and tamas in their nature and hence they always take more than they give to their shadhak. Even in their sadhna when they finally arrive near Sadhak, they demand for sexual relationship. Tantric method of kundali awakening is also dangerous but quick, when kundalani rises, temp of body rises very high due to extreme energy, strong fragrance of sandalwood and Asthagandh is felt. This process needs to be completed under guru who can initiate the process through shaktipaath deeksha and bhairavi or female tantrik. Kundalani awakening is only for those who can strictly follow Brahmacharya throughout their life. However opening energy centers/chakra is easy and everyone can do it. The process of rising kundalani can be completed safely by method described in Yogasutra of Patanjali but may take years of hard labor. Most of people who today claim that their kundalani is awakened lie. Tantra is hard path and that is why people believe Tantra as something related to sex because it's easy easy for them to grasp this form of tantra and most websites and books in west shows tantra as same. Also the popularity of text "Kaamasutra" responsible for it.

That is so very nicely explained. Well done!

Yes, the third aspect I haven't touched upon yet are the Siddhis.

The concept of Siddhis (supernatural powers) is also very overrated and widely misunderstood.

In any spiritual practice, not only Tantra, certain 'benefits of practice' can be observed as one loses their attachments and desires and achieves progress.

I don't put too much credence in the whole 'levitating', 'walking on water' or 'killing people with your mind' thing.....the Siddhis obtained are much more subtle than all that. It may be the case where one just becomes more empathetic, intuitive...more 'aware' of their surroundings. They have the ability to 'influence things', but only on/at a certain level...there's no magic or mystery in this. It's something we can all naturally do....something we have all lost.

To practice Tantra or to give up practicing Tantra once Siddhis are aquired, is again, all the wrong reasons for practicing Tantra.

As with any practice, one can get stuck on the way. The goal of Tantra is Self-Realisation and Siddhis are only a barrier to that final awakening. Why settle for less when one can have it all?

Many things give Tantra a 'bad name', but you can see how much ignorance, desire, attachment and illusion it spawns. It is good to see it, because you can work out ways to overcome it.

One of the main adages of Tantra is 'We rise by that which we fall'. This has been taken out of context totally and people go "oh, I can do all bad/adharmic stuff now and achieve Moksha...cool". That is not the point. The point is to either become aware of what is holding you back and transcend it or to continue on like that, but remain unattached and just perform those actions robotically.

Anyway, I wanted to say more, but I have lost it....gone now.

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Aupmanyav]

Second pandit had some great powers, .. Also the popularity of text "Kaamasutra" responsible for it.

For an atheist and a person of science like me, superstition.

 

[Sumit]

For an atheist and a person of science like me, superstition.

Yes, it's hard for an atheist to accept tantra. Science and Atheist do not even believe on souls but they exist, it's easy to say something you never encountered as superstition.
That pundit had probably Karnpishachani siddhi, but I am not sure because this is tantrik siddhi and he was against tantra. I also know some women with this siddhi. Karnapishani is common siddhi of tantra and many tantrik scriptures like Mantra Mahodahi, Mahanirvan Tantra, Bhootdamar Tantra etc details the method of mastering this power. There are two method to acquire it either through vedic marga which is safe but takes months or through Vama marga which is dangerous but siddhi is aquired in few days. This siddhi is for Aghors. Females can also complete this sadhna but after acquiring this siddhi karnapishachni needs daily prayers. However this sadhna is extremely dangerous for males living with family.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, it's hard for an atheist to accept tantra.

On the contrary, I accept Tantra as well as Aghor with all my heart. No doubt about that. Tantra and Aghor are methods (although not the ways I prefer, mine is jnana) to understand and arrive at non-attachment and non-duality. What I do not accept is superstition of siddhis.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

It's also not possible to read anybody's mind, because even if you managed to do it, the person would lie anyway and say they 'weren't thinking that'.

Om Namah Shivay