The whys of Hell and Jesus.

[Tumah]

I'm not an expert on Catholicism so I'd prefer a Catholic to explain Purgatory. However, I always "assumed" that Catholics believe that Purgatory is a way of working off your sin, and later making it to Heaven. Murderers etc maybe in there for 1000s of years whereas a person who was not really that bad, but stole a few cheap things maybe in there for a short time. Catholics also pray for their dead, to help them get out of Purgatory earlier. Once out, they are free of sin and can go to Heaven. Any Catholics reading this are free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The Protestant view is that Catholics have no Biblical basis for believing in Purgatory and it was Martin Luther (the Catholic priest who triggered the reformation and helped start the Protestant church) who stated that Purgatory was an invention of the Catholic church. Protestants believe in Heaven and Hell only. We believe that people could not be saved from Hell without a sacrifice which was an animal one (mentioned in the Torah) before Christ; and Christ's sacrifice on the cross after the dead and resurrection of Christ. The Protestant Hell is a place of fire where sinners live for eternity.

What do Orthodox Jews believe about: 1. animal sacrifice in the Torah, 2. salvation after the temple was destroyed, 3. Heaven and Hell? I'd like to hear your perspective.

In that case, I think our view is closer to the Catholics one.
1. The minority of sacrifices that related to sins altogether, were only means of achieving atonement for a select group of the more serious sins, when they were done unintentionally. Those sacrifices altogether, were the last stage in the repentance process
2. After the Temple was destroyed, we preform the other stages of repentance, and for those sins where complete atonement requires death, atonement is achieved at death.
3. Assuming one merits to go there, Hell is meant to be a place, where the remaining sins and remains of one's sins are "burned" away so that one's pure soul can enter Heaven. The severity and quantity of the sins as well as the type, plays a part in one's placement and duration in Hell. Heaven refers to one of three stages: the temporary state of clean souls in Heaven, the Messianic Age, and the World to Come. The last one, we see as an eternal existence.

 

[JoStories]

Yes. The conscious(Adam) impregnated Eve(subconscious) with a child(seed of knowledge, thought, idea, desire, etc) that gave rise to their ego(devil/Satan/serpent/snake) creating a conscious fracture, separation of mind into duality, rather than a whole and one temple(mind) within themselves and with the rest of mankind. Happens all the time, individually in our minds.

Wives(subconscious) must submit to their husbands(conscious) because our subconscious must be nurtured and taken care of by the things we dwell on and impregnate it with(thoughts.)

"God" did give Adam(conscious) a helpmate (woman-mind-subconscious) in order to seek truth, not live in lies and deceit.

You sound like Freud, who, btw, has been completely discredited as ridiculous. Why must a wife submit? Why are women second class, per your remarks?? What if the man is a complete idiot and the woman is the more intelligent and the one best suited to be in charge? What you state here about conscious and subconscious is silly. I have never submitted to a man in my life and I would certainly not start now. Why should I?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

In that case, I think our view is closer to the Catholics one.
1. The minority of sacrifices that related to sins altogether, were only means of achieving atonement for a select group of the more serious sins, when they were done unintentionally. Those sacrifices altogether, were the last stage in the repentance process
2. After the Temple was destroyed, we preform the other stages of repentance, and for those sins where complete atonement requires death, atonement is achieved at death.
3. Assuming one merits to go there, Hell is meant to be a place, where the remaining sins and remains of one's sins are "burned" away so that one's pure soul can enter Heaven. The severity and quantity of the sins as well as the type, plays a part in one's placement and duration in Hell. Heaven refers to one of three stages: the temporary state of clean souls in Heaven, the Messianic Age, and the World to Come. The last one, we see as an eternal existence.

Thank you for sharing that....very interesting.

Can you explain your view on "the Messianic Age"? Do souls go to Heaven and then come back down to Earth for the Messianic stage? Sorry, I don't understand how it works, according to Judaism. When I read the Bible, I understand it to be on the Earth. Christians believe the messiah to have already come.

Could you explain how Orthodox Jews repent without an animal sacrifice? I'm very interested in this.

What percentage of practicing Jews are actually Orthodox?

I have a 800 page mini encyclopedia on Judaism but sadly, after reading most of it, I'm still in the dark about many Jewish beliefs.

Thanks for your time. God bless. Hong.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Interesting reference. Let's see how it begins:

​

But, since this overview did not serve @jojom and his petty agenda, he simply chose not to share. So much for intellectual integrity.

Thank you for sharing this. Interesting.

 

[Tumah]

Thank you for sharing that....very interesting.

Can you explain your view on "the Messianic Age"? Do souls go to Heaven and then come back down to Earth for the Messianic stage? Sorry, I don't understand how it works, according to Judaism. When I read the Bible, I understand it to be on the Earth. Christians believe the messiah to have already come.

Yes, there's a resurrection of the dead and the righteous souls are brought back to life on Earth for the duration of the Messianic Age (a temporary time), while the evil ones stop existing.

Could you explain how Orthodox Jews repent without an animal sacrifice? I'm very interested in this.

Again, its important to note that even in Temple times, animal sacrifice only helped achieve atonement for a select number of sins and only when they were unintentional. That means, for what was probably the majority of sins, sacrifice never helped and only regular repentance was done.
Animal sacrifice is not an indelible part of repentance. It never actually helped for most sins. And Deut. 30:1-2 would make no sense. It starts off with saying that we are exiled into the other nations (animal sacrifice is not permitted outside the Temple) and then it speaks about how we return to G-d and G-d takes us back. If there was no repentance without sacrifice, then those verses would be impossible. Rather animal sacrifice is just an extra. We find Biblical personalities engaged in repentance such as Psa. 51 and Daniel 9:4-20. They are praying for forgiveness, rather than just offering sacrifices.
The three basic parts of repentance are: Confess our sin to G-d, truthfully regretting it and accepting not to sin that particular sin again.
The deeper and stronger one performs these parts, the greater the atonement for the sin. Likewise the greater the impetus, the greater the effect. There are also other things that help with atonement, such as charity and purity.

I have a 800 page mini encyclopedia on Judaism but sadly, after reading most of it, I'm still in the dark about many Jewish beliefs.

Thanks for your time. God bless. Hong.

That's no problem.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, there's a resurrection of the dead and the righteous souls are brought back to life on Earth for the duration of the Messianic Age (a temporary time), while the evil ones stop existing.

So think some ...

 

[Tumah]

So think some ...

Yes, yes. I've already made a disclaimer for you.

Also, my view is mainstream Orthodox. The vast majority of Jews are not Orthodox, so I can't speak for them.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Yes, there's a resurrection of the dead and the righteous souls are brought back to life on Earth for the duration of the Messianic Age (a temporary time), while the evil ones stop existing.


Again, its important to note that even in Temple times, animal sacrifice only helped achieve atonement for a select number of sins and only when they were unintentional. That means, for what was probably the majority of sins, sacrifice never helped and only regular repentance was done.
Animal sacrifice is not an indelible part of repentance. It never actually helped for most sins. And Deut. 30:1-2 would make no sense. It starts off with saying that we are exiled into the other nations (animal sacrifice is not permitted outside the Temple) and then it speaks about how we return to G-d and G-d takes us back. If there was no repentance without sacrifice, then those verses would be impossible. Rather animal sacrifice is just an extra. We find Biblical personalities engaged in repentance such as Psa. 51 and Daniel 9:4-20. They are praying for forgiveness, rather than just offering sacrifices.
The three basic parts of repentance are: Confess our sin to G-d, truthfully regretting it and accepting not to sin that particular sin again.
The deeper and stronger one performs these parts, the greater the atonement for the sin. Likewise the greater the impetus, the greater the effect. There are also other things that help with atonement, such as charity and purity.


That's no problem.

Thanks for sharing that. Leviticus mentions intentional sin too such as in Lev. 6:1-7. Sacrifice was offered then too, according to these verses. Could you give your perspective on these verses?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

So think some ...

I'd like to hear your perspective too. I take it that you are not an Orthodox Jew.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, yes. I've already made a disclaimer for you.

Thanks.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thanks.

Can you share your views on 1. Hell, 2. repentance, 3. animal sacrifice, according to Judaism. Thanks.

 

[Tumah]

Thanks for sharing that. Leviticus mentions intentional sin too such as in Lev. 6:1-7. Sacrifice was offered then too, according to these verses. Could you give your perspective on these verses?

Lev. 6:1-7 is the burnt-offering which is unrelated to sin, nor is sin mentioned there.Perhaps you meant Lev. 5?
If so, Lev. 5 speaks about the guilt-offering, not the sin offering. There were five reasons a guilt offering was brought. Two of which were intentional (falsely swearing over a stolen object and having relations with a maidservant). I think those are the only two intentional sins that a sacrifice is nonetheless brought for. Of the other three, two is for an unintentional sin (using sanctified objects belonging to the Temple, breaking a Nazirite pledge) and one does't seem to be related to sin at all (Lepers bring it eight days after they're purified).
So basically, those two cases are the exception to the rule.
There are likewise many unintentional sins that no sacrifice was brought for.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'd like to hear your perspective too. I take it that you are not an Orthodox Jew.

The God of the Torah is, among many things, the God of history.

• When a people prosper, it is because they (or at least their leaders) did what was right in the eyes of God.
• Conversely, when a people suffer, it can only mean that they (or at least their leaders) failed to walk in the ways of their Lord.

It is a primitive theology of reward and punishment that fails miserably. Too often we see that the evil are rewarded while no good deed goes unpunished. The only way to save the theology is to defer Reward and Punishment to the afterlife. Or, as the OP reference notes:

The development of the concept of life after death is related to the development of eschatology (speculation about the “end of days”) in Judaism. Beginning in the period following the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem (586 BCE), several of the classical Israelite prophets (Amos, Hosea, andIsaiah) began forecasting a better future for their people.

However, with repeated military defeats and episodes of exile and dislocation culminating in the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Jewish thinkers began to lose hope in any immediate change, instead investing greater expectations in a messianic future and in life after death. This was coupled with the introduction into Judaism of Hellenistic notions of the division of the material, perishable body and the spiritual, eternal soul.

The Book of Job is, in my opinion, a brilliant and courageous polemic against this theology. Job suffers terribly and his friends/advisors tell him that it is obvious that he has sinned terribly and must repent. They're wrong and the author makes sure that the reader knows it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Lev. 6:1-7 is the burnt-offering which is unrelated to sin, nor is sin mentioned there.Perhaps you meant Lev. 5?
If so, Lev. 5 speaks about the guilt-offering, not the sin offering. There were five reasons a guilt offering was brought. Two of which were intentional (falsely swearing over a stolen object and having relations with a maidservant). I think those are the only two intentional sins that a sacrifice is nonetheless brought for. Of the other three, two is for an unintentional sin (using sanctified objects belonging to the Temple, breaking a Nazirite pledge) and one does't seem to be related to sin at all (Lepers bring it eight days after they're purified).
So basically, those two cases are the exception to the rule.
There are likewise many unintentional sins that no sacrifice was brought for.

No, I was referring to Lev. 6:1-7. I thought that was talking about a guilt offering (v.7). The chapters in the Hebrew Bible may be different than in the Christian Bible. Do you know if the Jewish and Christian verses are always the same length? Verse 3B says "...or if he commits any such sin that people may do...". I always believed that a sacrifice was required for any sin. Why would some sins need a sacrifice and others not? It seems illogical?

 

[Unification]

You sound like Freud, who, btw, has been completely discredited as ridiculous. Why must a wife submit? Why are women second class, per your remarks?? What if the man is a complete idiot and the woman is the more intelligent and the one best suited to be in charge? What you state here about conscious and subconscious is silly. I have never submitted to a man in my life and I would certainly not start now. Why should I?

Not speaking of literal man and woman. Speaking of subconscious being nurtured by conscious. Lower, subjective mind submitting to higher, objective mind. A literal woman should never submit to anyone, and is equal to anyone.
They are metaphors in texts for the mind, and what they represent. Very glad you've never submitted to any control or beneath a literal guy.

Husband- conscious
Wife- subconscious

The subconscious mind is second class, to the conscious mind, per my remarks.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Thank you for your comments. Are you a secular Jew or a practicing one? My Uncle, from America, was secular....completely. He was only Jewish by blood.

The Book of Job is, in my opinion, a brilliant and courageous polemic against this theology. Job suffers terribly and his friends/advisors tell him that it is obvious that he has sinned terribly and must repent. They're wrong and the author makes sure that the reader knows it.

Yes, I like Job. I also believe that God does not always punish people with sickness, but that there could be another reason for it. I like the Bible story about when the Philistines brought back the Ark of the Tabernacle to Israel. They realized that God can punish people with sickness but that it could also be for natural reasons. They did a test, and realized that the plagues were in fact from God.

We certainly can't blame the Jews for what happened in the Holocaust. It was due to Hitler's actions that so many sadly perished.

God bless. Hong.

 

[thau]

I've never seen the meek defecate logical fallacies on the faith.

Anyway, if you do agree, there are many statements in your posts that need revision.

I have not been to this board in awhile, but now I can see it is just a matter of time before normal humans start ignoring you.

I mean, if you want to work out your new material for your comedy routine maybe you should clue us in first. Because you are neither funny nor clever.

Either say something coherent or remain silent in order to safeguard whatever credibility you have.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Thank you for your comments. Are you a secular Jew or a practicing one? My Uncle, from America, was secular....completely. He was only Jewish by blood.

I am a practicing Reform Jew.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

I am a practicing Reform Jew.

Are there many differences between a Reformed Jew and an Orthodox one? Sorry, I know little about modern Judaism. God bless. Hong.

 

[thau]

But are you saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven?

If taking Jesus as one's savior is the only way to get into heaven wouldn't that be the reasonable conclusion? So, yes, it certainly appears that way.

But this still requires seeking God with a sincere heart, and being moved by grace. A LOT of people in the world don't even know of god so as to seek him out. Or remain unconvinced of its necessity. As far as being moved by grace, I'm not sure what this refers to. Where does this grace come from to move people, and what does one have to do to have it bestowed on oneself?

Good, then I assume you agree that having to accept Jesus as one's savior is a narrow and conditional means of avoiding hell. A condition most of civilization never heard of it, or has been convinced of its necessity.
.

>>But are you saying that it's not necessary to take Jesus as one's savior to get into heaven?<<

What I am saying I think I already said. I said it depends, and I also believe that is what Scripture says. For me to reject Jesus I really doubt I would ever get to heaven. For you it is probably similar because you have been given so much and know of your Lord and the reasons and evidence behind it. But for some poor Hindu woman trying to survive and care for her children, No, she does not have to know Jesus to get to heaven, she will get there. She will be judged in many other ways all spelled out in Scripture.


[Vatican II says this Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.]

>>But this still requires seeking God with a sincere heart, and being moved by grace.<<

Yes, and I believe the Catholic Church has not narrowly defined what “seeking God with a sincere heart” refers to. If someone is trying to save street kids in the barrios of Rio de Janeiro from falling into crime and drugs and never mentions God, I still say that person is seeking God with a sincere heart. The same goes for someone who volunteers to care for the malnourished and oppressed, that too is seeking God. ---- Now a less clear example might be those of other religions who believe they are following the true God of the universe even though theologically they are terribly adrift. If they are pious and imploring in their prayers BUT ALSO if they do not harm others in their quest, much of their actions will be honored above, I believe. So those in the Taliban or ISIS do not qualify for they are committing acts of evil. It does not matter if they think it is "Allah's will" or not.


>> A LOT of people in the world don't even know of god so as to seek him out. Or remain unconvinced of its necessity. As far as being moved by grace, I'm not sure what this refers to. Where does this grace come from to move people, and what does one have to do to have it bestowed on oneself?<<

I do not believe this needs further explanation. But I will refer you to Matthew 25:31-46. Read on what basis the Lord separates the sheep from the goats in the Last Judgment. It is not faith or piety. It is exclusively charity and how you treated others. That is NOT to say faith and piety are not of enormous grave importance. It IS to say that how we treat others is even of greater importance. Ever read St. Paul when he said “in the end three things will remain, faith, hope and charity. And the greatest of these is charity.”

So to sum:For some to reject Jesus, given what they know, could very well be fatal. For others given far less opportunity to know Jesus or hear the gospel, not nearly the same criteria for being judged. Why is this so hard to see? Incidentally – many or most do not go directly to heaven or hell the moment they die. They go to purgatory where God’s justice and mercy are present.