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The Willful Ignorance of Creationism

siti

Well-Known Member
Why on earth can't these sacred books be written in plain, unambiguous language.
Phrases such as 'implied', 'hidden in allegory', 'allegorical references' do not impress and I smell b*llsh*t.
I'm awfully sorry to pull a fellow rational and skeptical humanist (well I am kind of a humanist) up on a point of order but if you are dismissing the ancient traditions because they make liberal use of allegory rather than speaking in direct and plain language, what on earth does your olfactory detection of bovine excreta have to do with anything?

PS in response to the OP: Dawkins' book "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution" covers similar ground and is also a good exposition. I think Coyne's and Dawkins' books both came out about the same time if I recall - before that there weren't any decent assemblages of the evidence that has amassed over 150 years since Darwin. I reckon at least one of these should be required reading in high schools (my God did I really just drop that bombshell - expose our children to the scientific evidence - heaven forbid!).
 
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Jay M. Brewer

New Member
Every time I recommend reading a book that lays out all of the evidence for evolution to creationists (typically Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne or similar books), they always either do not respond, or state that they will not read it. Why could this be? If they truly believed in searching for the truth, they would read books that challenge their current viewpoint. If they had confidence in their beliefs, they would research the arguments of the other side, and would not fear a challenge to their belief system. But the fact that they refuse to research all of the evidence for evolution by reading a pro-evolution book indicates to me that they fear that being presented with the evidence will change their mind. And this fear of evidence is common among all creationists that I have encountered, not just those on this forum. I grew up in an environment of fundamentalist Christians who either sent their children to private schools or home-schooled them because they did not want their children to learn about the evidence for evolution in public schools. The only motivation for this that I can think of is fear. These people know that their belief system is weak, and they fear that being presented with evidence for evolution would change their minds and their children's minds, thus they literally hide themselves and their children from this evidence, out of their fear that they will realize just how weak their belief system actually is.

I hope that this does not come across as too accusatory or preachy. I am simply reporting my personal observations of how creationists (both on this forum and in my personal life) behave in the face of evidence for evolution. But maybe some of them will prove me wrong. How many of you young-earth creationists will take up my challenge to read Jerry Coyne's book Why Evolution is True? If any of you will take the time to read it, I will gladly have a discussion with you about it.
Does evolution prove that God does not exist? Can't speak for everyone else but it can't. Here's why: everything we know about evolution and every fact about evolution is IN THE MIND. Evolution and any atheist belief about the origin of life or the universe depends upon the existence of KANTIAN NOUMENA-a copy of what's in our consciousness that is not our consciousness nor made up of consciousness in the external world. We can know that Noumena existed can only have faith it does. For all we know, nothing exists except consciousness and the world we experience is a construct created by an external consciousness. This would certainly jibe with the Bible speaking of Satan as he who "hath blinded the minds of them that believe not".
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Another good read in the Evolution department, is Your Inner Fish: A journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body by Neil Shubin.

And as I googled the correct spelling for his name? I discovered there was a PBS based on his book.

I have read it, it's quite good. I've not see the PBS version, but I plan to.

Here's a link to the episode guide on PBS. I haven't been able to locate a resource for viewing it, unfortunately. It was made back in 2014.

Edit: Forget the now commercial PBS. I found episode 1 up on YouTube.

Your Inner Fish, Episode 1
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why don't you read his book? YouTube videos don't even scratch the surface of the evidence he presents in his book.

I have no interest in reading his book for the same reason I have no interest in watching any more of his videos. I watched them but not to hear "evidence" for evolution....I watch them for a whole range of reasons, one of which is to hear "what" he was saying and "how" he said it.

If you watch his videos, he has the same air of superiority that Dawkins demonstrates. He uses derision to make people feel stupid if they don't accept science's "evidence". He uses ridicule to shame people into believing what science presents as "evidence" and why they should believe it.....even though there is no real proof for any of it. If evolution is a fact, then why is it still called a theory?....oh, I know, it's because science is not about proof or facts.....its about what "might have" or "could have" taken place on earth at a time when there was no one around to document a thing. And don't ask them about how life began...that has nothing to do with them. :rolleyes:

Even in that short promo for his book we hear things like...'Evolution is the best idea anyone ever had ', followed by the claim that it is one of our 'greatest intellectual achievements'. So with that idea firmly planted in the hearer's mind before he even begins, where is the reader or the viewer taken right off the bat? Do we understand the power of suggestion when it is made by someone with credentials? The thing we have to ask is who gave these people their credentials? Who taught them everything they know? And who do they pass their teachings on to? No one is born with knowledge...it all has to be learned. We become the disciples of our teachers. But what if our teachers are dead wrong? :eek:

The most amazing thing that Coyne admits is that so many "believe" in evolution without knowing what it is. Imagine! People will accept the truth of evolution without any real education about it.
Coyne has to tell people" its more than a theory, but is true".

He then speaks about 'creeping opposition' to evolution in America and Britain and claims to want to give people "ammunition" to help them defend their beliefs.....how strange that evolutionists are now having to 'defend' their theory in the light of people becoming skeptical about it actually being provable. There is an equally large body of evidence that indicates that science makes things up and passes them off as facts.
He says it isn't just one theory, but a group of theories and supported by many branches of science...but is it?
Could it be that in academic circles, pride plays a greater part in its teachings than actual truth? Could it be that the 'branches' are all attached to the same tree? o_O

How much can science actually 'prove' as opposed to what they suggest "might be" or "could be" the truth?

We need to really listen to what these men are saying as opposed to what we assume they are saying. There is a reason for the "creeping opposition".....people need more than educated guesses and supposition to base their future on.

The lines of evidence are not really all that convincing when you look at them more closely....

Embryology for example....

"Embryology is defined as the branch of biology and medicine that studies embryos and how they develop. The study of how human embryos develop from fertilization to birth is an example of embryology."

Why is a similarity in the way embryos develop a proof of evolution? It has to be read into the process because it isn't evident right off the bat. Unless scientists led you to believe that it was, you wouldn't automatically assume it. In each organism, the DNA codes for what that creature will become. The cells will form body parts according to the information in that code....who wrote the code? Information doesn't come from nowhere. It has to come from an intelligent source.

Vestigial organs is another one cited by Coyne....

One site I looked up said this..."If living beings developed by evolution, not only organs would have to be formed totally new. It would also have to be expected that already existing organs were altered or even reduced in time. An evolutionary process obviously cannot be “closed for renovation” (G. Osche), the living beings on the contrary have to be capable of surviving in every generation. The hypothetical process of evolution preferentially “carries on building” on whatever already exists: reconstruction instead of new construction. In other words, if a structure is not needed anymore, e.g. because of altered environmental factors or after occupying a new habitat it can atrophy or even disappear totally in time."

Vestigial organs (Interested)

How does one recognize a vestigial organ? Only by assumption based on a pre-conceived idea.

Muscle movements are also interpreted as "left-overs" from evolution.....another assumption. No real evidence for this one except the suggestion.

What about "faulty design"? The same site also says...

"The argumentation is, that during the course of evolution often only reorganization can be made, which leads to suboptimal constructions and even constructional flaws. In this sense, an argument of imperfection is introduced. This imperfection is seen as an indication for evolution, because evolutionary reorganization often only allows imperfect solutions.

The chiasm of mammalian oesophagus and windpipe is occasionally cited as an example. Because of the danger of choking this construction seems to be suboptimal and a phylogenetically caused faulty design. On the other hand, a missing chiasm would place the oesophagus right in front of the heart, which would mean its strangulation in the case of an enlarged heart. Besides the chiasm has some advantages: Phlegm that is transported upwards through the windpipe can take its way down the oesophagus. Besides, this construction allows mouth breathing, which is a thankworthy construction under stress, when expectorating foreign bodies or having a cold. Furthermore, the construction is space-saving. A discrepancy of structure and function does not exist."


Do you see why there is "creeping opposition" to evolution as people hear the other side of the argument, which students will not hear discussed in their lecture theatres.There is no end of reading material online for both sides of this story, so each can evaluate for themselves what makes more sense.

Coyne's work is nothing but a load of unsubstantiated supposition IMO, as is Dawkins'. Both rely on scant evidence and lots of suggestion. If the scientific community falls for this so called "evidence", based on little but the wishful thinking of evolutionary scientists, then the "creeping" will continue among those who can not so easily dismiss an Intelligent Designer of the whole process.
 
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Altfish

Veteran Member
I'm awfully sorry to pull a fellow rational and skeptical humanist (well I am kind of a humanist) up on a point of order but if you are dismissing the ancient traditions because they make liberal use of allegory rather than speaking in direct and plain language, what on earth does your olfactory detection of bovine excreta have to do with anything?

PS in response to the OP: Dawkins' book "The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution" covers similar ground and is also a good exposition. I think Coyne's and Dawkins' books both came out about the same time if I recall - before that there weren't any decent assemblages of the evidence that has amassed over 150 years since Darwin. I reckon at least one of these should be required reading in high schools (my God did I really just drop that bombshell - expose our children to the scientific evidence - heaven forbid!).
My reference to bovine excreta was meant to be a comment on the interpreters use of these ambiguous scripts.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
My reference to bovine excreta was meant to be a comment on the interpreters use of these ambiguous scripts.
I know. It is an allegorical comment on the believability (or not) of their 'interpretations' of ancient allegories (I don't think there is any question that the Bible, for example, contains a huge amount of allegorical passages - not the ones that were claimed to be "about evolution" though I must admit). But I was imagining future readers of the RF archive in the year 3500 finding this allegorical reference to smelling cow dung in a book impenetrably abstruse and wonder to themselves "why couldn't this guy just talk straight"?:)
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Every time I recommend reading a book that lays out all of the evidence for evolution to creationists (typically Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne or similar books), they always either do not respond, or state that they will not read it. Why could this be? If they truly believed in searching for the truth, they would read books that challenge their current viewpoint. If they had confidence in their beliefs, they would research the arguments of the other side, and would not fear a challenge to their belief system. But the fact that they refuse to research all of the evidence for evolution by reading a pro-evolution book indicates to me that they fear that being presented with the evidence will change their mind. And this fear of evidence is common among all creationists that I have encountered, not just those on this forum. I grew up in an environment of fundamentalist Christians who either sent their children to private schools or home-schooled them because they did not want their children to learn about the evidence for evolution in public schools. The only motivation for this that I can think of is fear. These people know that their belief system is weak, and they fear that being presented with evidence for evolution would change their minds and their children's minds, thus they literally hide themselves and their children from this evidence, out of their fear that they will realize just how weak their belief system actually is.

I hope that this does not come across as too accusatory or preachy. I am simply reporting my personal observations of how creationists (both on this forum and in my personal life) behave in the face of evidence for evolution. But maybe some of them will prove me wrong. How many of you young-earth creationists will take up my challenge to read Jerry Coyne's book Why Evolution is True? If any of you will take the time to read it, I will gladly have a discussion with you about it.
Actually I have every sympathy for a religious believer declining to read Coyne's books. Coyne is one of those, like Dawkins, who sets up a false antithesis between science and religion and attacks religion itself, not just the loony end of it as manifested in creationism. Nobody wants to read biased polemics against their faith, nor should they be expected to. This, for instance, is how Wiki characterises Coyne's stance:

QUOTE
Born to Jewish parents, Coyne considers himself a secular Jew,[16] and an outspoken anti-theist. He supports the theses of metaphysical naturalism and the conflict thesis.[citation needed] He claims that religion and science are fundamentally incompatible, that only rational evaluation of evidence is capable of reliably discovering the world and the way it works, and that scientists who hold religious views are only reflective of the idea, "that people can hold two conflicting notions in their heads at the same time" (cognitive dissonance). He has argued that the incompatibility of science and faith is based on irreconcilable differences in methodology, philosophy, and outcomes when they try to discern truths about the universe.

As well as evolution-related topics, his blog Why Evolution Is True discusses atheism, the incompatibility of science and religion, science, and other topics. He has frequently participated in public forums and cross-fire debates with theists.[17]

UNQUOTE

Coyne strikes me as typical of the way some of these irritating evangelists of atheism hijack science and create conflict and mutual disrespect, instead of pointing out the possibility of coexistence.

Religious believers would do far better to read things like "Finding Darwin's God" by Ken Miller, for instance. A lot more thoughtful and respectful and less antagonistic.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
@Deeje , you can hardly blame people who actually do research and test hypothesis from appearing "superior".

Oh, but I can....o_O

Doing research and testing hypotheses can be a wonderful experience.....unless imagination takes what can be proven off into 'fantasyland' with nothing more than assumption and guesswork to back it up. Its a scientific 'sleight of hand' that very few can actually discern.

e.g. What can science really "prove"? Very little compared to what they claim.
Take micro-evolution for instance.
"Micro-evolution" is only "adaptation" which we know is driven by external forces on an organism, such as environmental changes or a different food source. These changes, which happen slowly over successive generations, are what first stirred the imagination of Darwin when he observed the finches and iguanas on the Galapagos Islands. These changes were quite small but demonstrated how adaptable creatures can be when separated from their basic species. However, Darwin did not observe any change in the creatures themselves; they were clearly still physically related to their mainland cousins, but altered slightly to adapt to island food supply and a marine environment.

Adaptation has been observed in lab experiments with Hawthorn Flies and Stickle-Back Fish.....none of which became anything other than a new species of Hawthorn Flies and Stickle-Back Fish. The adaptations were relatively minor and did not change anything but the creatures mating habits. Regardless of their inability to interbreed, they remained true to their "kind". Adaptation just produces variety within a taxonomic family.

When viruses mutate, they do so in response to external factors that threaten their species....but they never become anything other than viruses. Every creature is programmed for survival.

"Macro-evolution" OTOH, takes adaptation and blows it up to a magnitude that defies the imagination. But because they call adaptation "micro-evolution" science wants us to believe that it went way outside the bounds that can be verified and on into complete fantasy. There is no way to verify anything that happened millions of years ago. Science can guess, but that is all they have. The power of suggestion can sell ice to Eskimos. :rolleyes:

I believe it is one of the biggest con jobs in history and not an accident that it showed up just before God's judgment of the world is due.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What? Again?

No, still.....:D Its not a matter of "if" but "when".

Habakkuk 2:3....
"For the vision is yet for its appointed time,

And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie.


Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it!


For it will without fail come true.


It will not be late!"

I can wait....:)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
What is he saying? He's promoting his book and giving reasons to read it. he also gave *hints* of a couple of pieces of evidence for evolution.

You can discern so much about that man just from that little video. Listen to what he says.....do you find it compelling? Are your sure that wiggling your ears is really proof for evolution? :shrug:

Have you ever watched his videos? I have but I need a bucket.
sick0022.gif
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
No, still.....:D Its not a matter of "if" but "when".

Habakkuk 2:3....
"For the vision is yet for its appointed time,

And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie.


Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it!


For it will without fail come true.


It will not be late!"

I can wait....:)
When can we expect it?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When can we expect it?

We were told to watch for the signs.....they are all there so it will happen when God is good and ready to bring it.
According to the scriptures, it will be when we are not expecting it.

Here it is from the horse's mouth.....

“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 41 Two women will be grinding at the hand mill; one will be taken along and the other abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:36-42)

So that is what we do.....
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Oh, but I can....o_O


Only at the expense of intellectual honesty, I fear.

Doing research and testing hypotheses can be a wonderful experience.....unless imagination takes what can be proven off into 'fantasyland' with nothing more than assumption and guesswork to back it up. Its a scientific 'sleight of hand' that very few can actually discern.

By saying that, you show a lack of acquaintance with the actual findings of biology, as well as with the scientific method.

Impressive in a way.

(...)

I believe it is one of the biggest con jobs in history and not an accident that it showed up just before God's judgment of the world is due.
Then you should expect to feel to be in a position of disadvantage. Sometimes things are just as they seem to be.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I have listened to many videos by Jerry Coyne and here is a short promo for his book.

When you listen to him promoting evolution, it all sounds very convincing, so I'll let people watch this and evaluate what he says before I offer my own comments.....

What do evolutionists think he is saying?

There was only one particular aspect of his monologue in the video that I found a bit perturbing - and that was his use of phrases like "evolution is one of the supreme intellectual achievements of mankind" (or something along those lines - he said something like it twice during the course of the video). I have to imagine he meant the initial recognition of the process and then the subsequent collection of the body of evidence supporting it... but it made it sound as if evolution were some human-founded thing - which could not be further from the truth. Great minds exposed it... but it was obviously here, in the inner-workings of all life, long before we were here to perceive it.

Went back and re-watched the beginning and he literally states that "evolution [is] one of the best ideas anybody's ever had", which is horribly poor word choice.

Again, I think he knew what he meant and just fell into the trap many of us do, which is to anthropomorphize "evolution" after a fashion and add all sorts of qualifiers to our speech that muddle the realities behind it and make it sound more cognitive, or with purpose. Nobody "came up with" the idea for evolution. A likely process was observed, and more particulars of the process solidified as then began evidence gathering.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
There was only one particular aspect of his monologue in the video that I found a bit perturbing - and that was his use of phrases like "evolution is one of the supreme intellectual achievements of mankind" (or something along those lines - he said something like it twice during the course of the video). I have to imagine he meant the initial recognition of the process and then the subsequent collection of the body of evidence supporting it... but it made it sound as if evolution were some human-founded thing - which could not be further from the truth. Great minds exposed it... but it was obviously here, in the inner-workings of all life, long before we were here to perceive it.

Went back and re-watched the beginning and he literally states that "evolution [is] one of the best ideas anybody's ever had", which is horribly poor word choice.

Again, I think he knew what he meant and just fell into the trap many of us do, which is to anthropomorphize "evolution" after a fashion and add all sorts of qualifiers to our speech that muddle the realities behind it and make it sound more cognitive, or with purpose. Nobody "came up with" the idea for evolution. A likely process was observed, and more particulars of the process solidified as then began evidence gathering.

I don'e see that as so much of an issue. Newtonian mechanics was one of the great intellectual achievements of mankind and one of the best ideas anyone ever had. That doesn't mean it isn't a dang good description of the universe.

/E: We can say the same thing for heliocentrism, General relativity, and Quantum Mechanics. Most great scientific advances are great intellectual achievements and great ideas. It's the fact that they correspond to reality that makes them great.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I don'e see that as so much of an issue. Newtonian mechanics was one of the great intellectual achievements of mankind and one of the best ideas anyone ever had. That doesn't mean it isn't a dang good description of the universe.
But the "idea" that was had in that case was to mathematically model physical behaviors - it's not like someone was taking credit for "gravity" as "an idea I had" when they brought forth the working equations and mathematical descriptors. A more correct terminology would be to say that the evolutionary model was one of man's greatest intellectual achievements, or even the discovery of evolution. It just seems like evolution itself shouldn't be said to be "someone's idea." Just like gravity, itself, wasn't someone's idea, and even to word things such that that is suggested would be weird.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
But the "idea" that was had in that case was to mathematically model physical behaviors - it's not like someone was taking credit for "gravity" as "an idea I had" when they brought forth the working equations and mathematical descriptors. A more correct terminology would be to say that the evolutionary model was one of man's greatest intellectual achievements, or even the discovery of evolution. It just seems like evolution itself shouldn't be said to be "someone's idea." Just like gravity, itself, wasn't someone's idea, and even to word things such that that is suggested would be weird.

Understood and I mostly agree. But it is a common shorthand to say 'evolution' instead of 'the evolutionary model'. Maybe not a good shorthand to use in this situation, but common nonetheless.
 
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