The word "cannibal" means something like "priesthood of baal"

[jonathan180iq]

Just when I thought I'd seen the most zany, Pagan-hostile rubbish imaginable, I read this opening post. I am wondering what dank crevices these nonsense ideas were fished out of... and what possible purpose there is in dredging them up for display.

If you're going to bastardize Pagan mythos, at least do it in style...

(that's supposed to be an image of Marvel's Thor... which for whatever reason isn't parsing)

BOOM!

 

[jonathan180iq]

Are you trying to say Marvel isn't an accurate source of Norse mythology? But... But... The incredibly objective historical institution known as Ancient Aliens said that gods are just early alien visitors just like Marvel! And that's on the History Channel!!!!! They can't put fake stuff on there... Its illegal or something!

I quite enjoy you.

 

[Quintessence]

View attachment 23261 BOOM!

Why doesn't it work for me? *sobs overdramatically*

 

[Rival]

Why doesn't it work for me? *sobs overdramatically*

Because you're a Ba'al worshipping cannibal, obviously.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Why doesn't it work for me? *sobs overdramatically*

You have to upload the file from an external source, like your desktop or something.
Skwim has a thread on it.

Save the image you want, then upload in the reply.
It's what we're having to do until the forum masters fix the bug.

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah, that's what I usually do too... but so lazy. It used to work fine before, and sometimes still does. For better or worse, the day-to-day forum staff can't fix this software stuff.

 

[74x12]

Sure. SOMEtimes they do. What's your evidence in this particular case, though?

This is evidence. The point here is to build a compelling case that the ancient Celtic tribes worshiped a deity they called baal. The point here is not to prove that beltaine was named after baal.

 

[74x12]

No. First off, Bealltainn is a fire festival. Ba'al was a storm god. Secondly, etymologically, no. It is derived from proto-Celtic belo-te(p)niâ which scholars believed referred to "bright/white fire." It is cognates with the Old English bael, meaning white, and the Slavic baltas and beloye, also meaning white. (See Baltic Sea [White Sea] and Belarus [White Russia])

The worship of Baal most likely included burnt sacrifices for Phoenicians. Besides Baal is a title not an actual name of any god. There were many "baals". Baal = lord.

 

[74x12]

Quite so. Hence I mentioned sources being "arguable" But like I said, even if the Celts WERE full on cannibals, it's still ridiculous to assume that they weren't perfectly capable of producing their own traditions and religious practices, that they must have somehow imported the practice from elsewhere. AFAIK there is zero evidence of any sort of early Celtic/Phoenician cultural link, and to claim such based on the vague similarity of a word, a word that we know is etymologically unrelated to either culture anyway, purely for the purpose of trying to shoehorn some Bible based demonising in is just silly.

It's not ridiculous if there is evidence. Zero evidence? Okay, I'm glad I have a historical and even prehistorical expert here to set me straight. Thanks.

 

[74x12]

Just when I thought I'd seen the most zany, Pagan-hostile rubbish imaginable, I read this opening post. I am wondering what dank crevices these nonsense ideas were fished out of... and what possible purpose there is in dredging them up for display.

If you're going to bastardize Pagan mythos, at least do it in style...

(that's supposed to be an image of Marvel's Thor... which for whatever reason isn't parsing)

Well if this doesn't effect your apparently druidic religion; then why are you on the defense? Did I say that all Celts and all druids worshiped baal? No, I didn't.

Which celtic god specifically do you choose as your patron?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

This is evidence.

it's extremely questionable evidence

The point here is to build a compelling case that the ancient Celtic tribes worshiped a deity they called baal.

OK, great, so other than an easily debunked word similarity, whaddya got?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

It's not ridiculous if there is evidence. Zero evidence? Okay, I'm glad I have a historical and even prehistorical expert here to set me straight. Thanks.

Well, I'm something of an amateur historian, yeah. But please, if you have compelling evidence for your theory that I'm unaware of, by all means, present it?

 

[Quintessence]

Well if this doesn't effect your apparently druidic religion; then why are you on the defense?

I would quite put it that way, but I consider it a matter of personal integrity to not stand idly by if nonsense is uttered when I know full well that it is nonsense. It doesn't matter if it's specifically my tradition of Paganism (that word, and Druidry, need to be capitalized, by the way... they're proper nouns in the same vein as Judaism or Buddhism). It's also kind of disrespectful to say something like "your apparently Druidic religion." There's nothing "apparently" about it.

Which celtic god specifically do you choose as your patron?

Patron gods are largely a Wicca thing, and I'm a Druid not a Celtic reconstructionist. Contemporary Druidry is theology-indifferent. That is to say, it doesn't adhere to any particular historical pantheon and you could be anything from an atheist to a monotheist to a polytheist within its auspices. This is especially the case of the order I belong to, which is explicitly welcoming of this diversity. The principle gods of my tradition are actually represented in my signature... it just looks pretty mundane to most folks.

 

[74x12]

OK, great, so other than an easily debunked word similarity, whaddya got?

In the book I recommended there is evidence presented that Celtic groups came over to North America. They had their own writing system(Ogham) and apparently worshiped Baal. The etymology just supports this hypothesis.

The mainstream theory on Ogham writing is that it was invented by "bored monks" in a monastery in Ireland. There is evidence however that it has much more ancient origins. In fact the monks never claim to have invented it. It's origins were supposedly from a certain "god" that taught people how to write.

Well, I'm something of an amateur historian, yeah. But please, if you have compelling evidence for your theory that I'm unaware of, by all means, present it?

Alright, so am I a little bit. (although I don't have enough time these days to study as much as I'd like.) We probably focused on different topics. I preferred military history. History of tactics, strategy etc. Although I dabbled in pretty much all types of history.

I would quite put it that way, but I consider it a matter of personal integrity to not stand idly by if nonsense is uttered when I know full well that it is nonsense. It doesn't matter if it's specifically my tradition of Paganism (that word, and Druidry, need to be capitalized, by the way... they're proper nouns in the same vein as Judaism or Buddhism). It's also kind of disrespectful to say something like "your apparently Druidic religion." There's nothing "apparently" about it.

I said "apparently" because I didn't know how serious you were about Druidism. Now that I know you're serious I will not say "apparently".

So what is nonsensical about some Celtic groups possibly worshiping a deity referred to as Baal; in which they may have indulged in some ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism?

Patron gods are largely a Wicca thing, and I'm a Druid not a Celtic reconstructionist. Contemporary Druidry is theology-indifferent. That is to say, it doesn't adhere to any particular historical pantheon and you could be anything from an atheist to a monotheist to a polytheist within its auspices. This is especially the case of the order I belong to, which is explicitly welcoming of this diversity. The principle gods of my tradition are actually represented in my signature... it just looks pretty mundane to most folks.

I see. I guess I took you for more of a Celtic reconstructionist then.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

It's also kind of disrespectful to say something like "your apparently Druidic religion." There's nothing "apparently" about it.

In no way meaning to be rude or disrespectful, could you explain how that works? Caesar exterminated the Druids at Swansea, IIRC, and as Celtic records are limited to a few Ogham inscriptions here and there and third hand hearsay, how is there enough information out there for real Druidic revival? Sincerely curious.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

In the book I recommended there is evidence presented that Celtic groups came over to North America.

WHAT evidence?

They had their own writing system(Ogham)

indeed

and apparently worshiped Baal.

Again this claim, still no evidence, though...

 

[Quintessence]

In no way meaning to be rude or disrespectful, could you explain how that works? Caesar exterminated the Druids at Swansea, IIRC, and as Celtic records are limited to a few Ogham inscriptions here and there and third hand hearsay, how is there enough information out there for real Druidic revival? Sincerely curious.

There's some interesting history behind Druidry as a contemporary religious phenomena. Other authors have done far more justice to it than I could hope to, so if you want to explore that in more detail, I'd recommend historian Ronald Hutton. OBOD has a simple overview of the history on their website here - https://www.druidry.org/druid-way/what-druidry/brief-history-druidry/longer-history-druidry

The short of it is the folks who study the history often talk about three forms of Druidry: historical Druidry, fraternal Druidry, and contemporary Pagan Druidry. With historical Druidry, you're absolutely right that there's little to nothing we know about the "original" Druidry. In spite of that, the figure of the Druid has been a cultural inspiration in Britain, and used iconographically in various ways (again, Hutton has a really good book on this - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3092261-the-druids). This inspired some gentleman type folk to create fraternities based on these reconstructions; that's fraternal Druidry (aka, British social clubs, though it wasn't limited to the UK). A few of those developed a religious tenor, and some of that material (along with material from the newly-developing field of archeology) became the inspiring basis for the third form - a more overtly Pagan and modern Druidry.

The first form of Druidry is thoroughly dead. The second form is also mostly dead, but I think there might be a few scattered social clubs here and there. For the most part, anyone calling themselves a Druid today is going to mean some sort of modern Druidry, which is typically Pagan in orientation. As such, it has a lot in common with the contemporary Pagan movement as a whole (e.g. influenced by environmentalism, feminism, counterculturalism in general). Some are heavily inspired by Celtic lore and mythos, others less so.

 

[Quintessence]

So what is nonsensical about some Celtic groups possibly worshiping a deity referred to as Baal; in which they may have indulged in some ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism?

Well, setting aside the absurdity of your argument, the general lack of evidence? The evidence of human sacrifice in historically Celtic cultures is somewhat ambiguous as it is, never mind there being anything suggesting cannibalism with a deity that wasn't even part of the Celtic culture. Ba'al is a Semitic deity.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

There's some interesting history behind Druidry as a contemporary religious phenomena. Other authors have done far more justice to it than I could hope to, so if you want to explore that in more detail, I'd recommend historian Ronald Hutton. OBOD has a simple overview of the history on their website here - https://www.druidry.org/druid-way/what-druidry/brief-history-druidry/longer-history-druidry

The short of it is the folks who study the history often talk about three forms of Druidry: historical Druidry, fraternal Druidry, and contemporary Pagan Druidry. With historical Druidry, you're absolutely right that there's little to nothing we know about the "original" Druidry. In spite of that, the figure of the Druid has been a cultural inspiration in Britain, and used iconographically in various ways (again, Hutton has a really good book on this - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3092261-the-druids). This inspired some gentleman type folk to create fraternities based on these reconstructions; that's fraternal Druidry (aka, British social clubs, though it wasn't limited to the UK). A few of those developed a religious tenor, and some of that material (along with material from the newly-developing field of archeology) became the inspiring basis for the third form - a more overtly Pagan and modern Druidry.

The first form of Druidry is thoroughly dead. The second form is also mostly dead, but I think there might be a few scattered social clubs here and there. For the most part, anyone calling themselves a Druid today is going to mean some sort of modern Druidry, which is typically Pagan in orientation. As such, it has a lot in common with the contemporary Pagan movement as a whole (e.g. influenced by environmentalism, feminism, counterculturalism in general). Some are heavily inspired by Celtic lore and mythos, others less so.

So, and again, intending no disrespect, it's sort of like Wiccaanism (and, being completely honest Asatru)... in that it's a modern creation inspired by traditional spirituality, rather than a direct line tradition?

Thanks for the thorough answer

 

[Quintessence]

So, and again, intending no disrespect, it's sort of like Wiccaanism (and, being completely honest Asatru)... in that it's a modern creation inspired by traditional spirituality, rather than a direct line tradition?

Thanks for the thorough answer

"Wiccanism" is typically called "Wicca," but yes, you're essentially correct. Some of the founding figures of Wicca (then, just called Witchcraft) and Druidry floated in the same social circles and knew each other, in fact.

That said, there were periods in the past where both movements would claim direct lines. There are good reasons for telling that story, even if it is a false one. New religious movements commonly hearken to the past to capture an air of legitimacy. For whatever reason, something being old and ancient sparks something in human brains that demands respect. Nowadays, you'd be hard-pressed to find a Wiccan or a Druid that claims a direct line like that.