And you ASSUME because I said 'as far as I know...' it means someone else told me ? what strange reasoning you have and then you have the affront to judge my relationship with God on your own ignorant reasoning !
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The WORD of GOD... really?
- Thread starter QuestioningMind
- Start date
And you ASSUME because I said 'as far as I know...' it means someone else told me ? what strange reasoning you have and then you have the affront to judge my relationship with God on your own ignorant reasoning !
ninerbuff
godless wonder
So how has god come and spoken to you on how to have a relationship with him if we're assuming that no one told you?
Shouldn't you be able to read the Greek (in Greek) bible and have god translate it to you through spirit if your relationship is directly just through god and not hearsay through man?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
God never spoke directly to anyone. He used his angels to transmit his messages to certain men.
Hebrews 1:1 "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son"
Galatians 3:19 "Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made; and it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator (moses)"
If God never spoke directly to even these men whom he had an obvious relationship with, why would he speak directly to anyone today?
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Luminous
non-existential luminary
more pagan idolatry. Our Father weaps in heaven.
Luminous
non-existential luminary
Must I truely explain what your idol scripture originally meant? prophets: as in people that could speak to god, hear god's message, or simply had insight into god's ways.
so you do not believe moses spoke to god(well the desert, vengeful, needy, jewish god) directly? god didn't speak to adam? God needs the angels? I thought it was all-powerful. where's the angels now?
a great and marvulous plan this desert being of yours has designed, where people will see no evidence of it...oh except for all the people that claim to have a personal relationship with it! you seam to be lacking something in your heart.
the denial of agnosticism is pitiful.
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ninerbuff
godless wonder
So here's contradiction:
Moses called all of Israel and said to them: 'Hear, O Israel, the decrees and the ordinances that I speak in your ears today -- learn them, and be careful to perform them. The Lord your God sealed a covenant with us at Horev [Mount Sinai]. Not with our forefathers did God seal this covenant, but with us -- we who are here, all of us alive today. Face to face did God speak with you on the mountain from amid the fire.' (Deut. 5:1-4)
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there is no contradiction
What the Isrealites saw was a cloud of smoke and fire on the top of the mountain, and what Moses saw was a burning bush and he was spoken to by an angel
Moses asked to see God but God declined his request:
Exodus 33:18-20 “‘Cause me [Moses] to see, please, your glory.’ But he [God] said: ‘I myself shall cause all my goodness to pass before your face, and I will declare the name of Jehovah before you; and I will favor the one whom I may favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I may show mercy.’ And he added: ‘You are not able to see my face, because no man may see me and yet live.’ 21 And Jehovah said further: “Here is a place with me, and you must station yourself upon the rock. 22 And it has to occur that while my glory is passing by I must place you in a hole in the rock, and I must put my palm over you as a screen until I have passed by. 23 After that I must take my palm away, and you will indeed see my back. But my face may not be seen.””
And the prophets are said to have recieved their communication from God via dreams and visions
Numbers 12:5-6 And he went on to say: “Hear my words, please. If there came to be a prophet of YOURS for Jehovah, it would be in a vision I would make myself known to him. In a dream I would speak to him.
Moses was able to speak to God 'face to face' as such in that the communication came verbally thru the voice of an angelic representative....but certainly not through God himself.
Exodus 3:2 Then Jehovah’s angel appeared to him in a flame of fire in the midst of a thornbush. As he kept looking, why, here the thornbush was burning with the fire and yet the thornbush was not consumed. 3 At this Moses said: “Let me just turn aside that I may inspect this great phenomenon, as to why the thornbush is not burnt up.” 4 When Jehovah saw that he turned aside to inspect, God at once called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!” to which he said: “Here I am.”
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
I am not putting blind faith into anything. True faith is not blind. I have read, but I have also done -proven -experienced. Those who wrote before read what they had available -did it -proved it -experienced it. I did not simply accept what was written -I tried it. Some have written many pages of horsepucky -but I have not found this to be the case with the bible.
You are correct to say that one does not need a book to establish a relationship with God. More correctly, God does not NEED such a book to establish a personal relationship with any man.
God, the Father, has spoken directly to men -someone here said differently, but he has ( Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased). God could begin a relationship with a completely isolated person. However, having a written record serves many purposes. He could repeat himself to every person, but why? Ancient Israelites were told by God to write things in books, etc.. -even to write the commandments, etc. on their door posts, etc.. so that there would be a record -and so that they would not forget what to do and not do -so that their children could learn the same things. It's no different than the reason we publish textbooks -so that one person does not have to keep repeating things -and so we can build greater things on a solid foundation. Israel, for the most part, did not continue to do as God said -or pass things on.
This is why the teachings in the bible and the examples of people in the bible are different than what is taught and done today -by people claiming to teach from the bible. In fact, it is quite good to have a written record to see the differences.
People believe they go to heaven when they die -but the bible specifically states that no man has ascended into heaven except Christ -not even David!
People also believe some go to hell and burn immediately after death -but the bible says no one has yet been cast into "gehenna" -and that every man who has ever died -except Christ -is still dead.
People keep Christmas and have trees in their houses, but the bible says...
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
People keep Easter, but Easter is another spelling of Ishtar/Astarte/Ashtaroth -chief goddess of the Babylonian Mystery Religion -as in...
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
People say WWJD? But most do not keep the holy days or sabbath given by God in the bible -which Jesus Christ DID DO -not to mention the church in the new testament long after Christ died -Jews and gentiles alike!
(You say you would be more impressed to hear what messages God has given me.
You might be impressed, but you'd probably call in some professional help for me.
There are plenty of people who think God is giving them messages -and some are not correct. Some "messages from God" are even faked. Some sad excuses for men like to mess with peoples' minds like that -but that's another whole wierd subject.)
Saul -who is also called Paul -was well-versed in the book -the scriptures avaiable in his day (and write some of the "new testament"), but his "personal relationship" with God did not actually begin until God (Christ) struck him down and blinded him while he was on his merry way consenting to the deaths of the followers of Christ.....
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
You're not stuck relying on anything, really (you don't rely on those words, apparently). I'm not stuck relying on anything. I rely on what I have proven about those words.
If God personally gave you a message, it would -generally -be pretty much the same as all the other messages he gave anyone. He might give you a specific message someday, though (stranger things have happened), such as the one he gave Saul -who then wrote so many could read what God was revealing to him -without having to repeat himself a bajillion times (like some people I know... "what are we doing?""what are we doing?""what are we doing?""what are we doing?""what are we doing?" [A: everything but what you should be -where you ain't it IS hitting -and you are being busied while he sets it up {sorry -inside joke}] some of you are good peeps doing a great job -some are sincere and being deceived and made to do the opposite of what they believe they are doing -the connection/organization is being used to find and target those who do not agree with what's being done -some do exploits, but there is a counterfeit -whereby many are exploited)
He might even tell you to write stuff down.
Careful, though -because the following HAS HAPPENED/IS HAPPENING/WILL HAPPPEN...
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Technically, the request was not denied -but granted in part. Moses saw his back -but not his face.
However -he did not see the back of God, the Father.
The following is still true...
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
HE SAW THE BACK OF THE WORD (LOGOS of John 1:1) -NOT THE FATHER!
The Word -the being who eventually became Christ -was Melchizedek -also I AM.
He has always gone forth from the Father to accomplish his will.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Many do not believe he was Melchizedek, but the following can only apply the the Father and the Word....
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
....and since he was priest to the most high God -the Father -he was not the Father....
Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
...but the being -the Word (Logos) -who became known as God's son -Jesus Christ.
It was the Word who also created all things -under direction from the Father...
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
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DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Hmm... So... Do you believe that God is different to everyone? That the God I interact with is different than the God you interact with who is different than the God in someone else's existence? It seems to me you are implying this. I mean, you have to start somewhere don't you? How is one supposed to arrive at the possibility that God exists?
I make the claim that God does exist. I also claim that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has spoken to mankind throughout history and interacted with them. By learning about his past dealings with mankind, we can better come to know what God is like and what we can expect of him. It is the scriptures that first teach us of God. Then it is God that teaches us scripture.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
Yes.
From the viewpoint of one totally "new"...
1-God does not exist -so there is really no question.
2-God does exist, has a purpose for hiding himself -and has decreed that no man might see him and live.
and/or
3-God does exist -and there is a physical reason why it is impossible for a man to see his face and live.
Moses was allowed to see the back parts of the Word (Logos) -who eventually became flesh as Christ.
There are many psychological reasons why God would hide himself (their selves) (most simply, the same reason a millionaire might hide their riches while searching for a sincere mate)
-but, as for physical reasons -it may actually be impossible for a man to see God and live. There are many things with which man cannot directly or closely interact without fear of harm. The bible says that Christ's "glorious" body is worked -composed of something. Perhaps that something would harm a human. His countenance -essentially his face -is said elsewhere to shine like the sun at full strength.
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jtartar
Well-Known Member
QuestioningMind,
I don't mind a person questioning the truth about the Bible. Is it really God's word, after so many years and so many translations??? Now, if you are INTELLECTUALLY HONEST, you will thoughtfully consider what I say.
Indeed, the Holy Scriptures are the word of God!!! The scriptures themselves testify to this fact. Consider what Paul said, when writing to Timothy, 2Tim 3:16,17. Paul said that ALL scripture is inspired by God. At Gal 1:11,12, Paul said that he received the word by a revelation from Jesus Christ. At 1Thes 2:13, Paul says again that what the people in Thessalonica received was the word of God.
Peter said about the same thing at 2Pet 1:20,21, where he said that NO SCRIPTURE springs from any private interpretation, but the writers spoke from God as they were carried along by Holy Spirit.
Al of the Hebrew Scriptures were complete in the time that Jesus walked the earth. Jesus said that God's word is truth, John 17:17. The apostles made sure that the word of God was no adulterated while they were on earth. All disciples of Christ had faith in what the apostles taught. The congregation in Jerusalem was where the Governing Body of the early congregations was, and they wrote to the other congregations to explain God's word to them and the accepted their explanations, Acts 10:18, 15:1,2, 22-31,16:4,5.
Now, does what is written here prove that the Bible is the word of God, just because it says it is??? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Then what does???
You know as well as I do that man cannot tell, with accurracy, the future. THIS is the most compelling reason to believe that the Bible is God's word.
Almost a third of the Bible is PROPHECY. Some are short time prophecies, some very long range prophecies. Every single one of these prophecies have come true or are in the process of coming true. The Book of Daniel, especially tells long range prophecies, even telling the exact number of the world powers that would have some dealings with the Israelites, Jews, Dan 2:31-35,44,45. Daniel even recorded the exact time that the Messiah would appear, Dan 9:24,25.
When the Israelites continued to rebel against God, He allowed the Babylonians to destroy the Nation, and Jerusalem, which was the seat of true worship on earth, the place where the Kings actually sat on God's THrone, 1Chron 28:5, 29:23. This ssme time period was also recorded at Eze 21:25-27. When Jerusalem was destroyed, that started what is called the March of the Gentile Times, or The Times of the Gentiles. the exact length of this time was prophesied by Daniel, in the forth chapter, concerning the Seven Times, and a huge TREE. This tree actually stood for God's Kingdom on earth, which was removed in 607BC, when Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. An understanding of this prophecy shows that the Time of the Gentiles would be 2,520 years, then there would again be someone installed as King, to sit again on God's Throne. That exact time turned out to be 1914!! At that time Jesus was installed as King of God's Kingdom of earth, but Jesus was to rule in the misat of his enemies for a period. We are now in that period. We know that conclusively by what we were to experience just after Jesus would be installed as King.
Rev 12:1-6 is a symbol of God's heavenly woman who produces a manchild, which symbolizes the Birth of the Kingdom. Notice what was to happen right after Jesus became King, WAR in heaven, with Satan and his demons being thrown down to earth. You can imagine what this would mean for the earth. WARS!! and every other kind of trouble that can be imagined by Satan, Rev 12:12 Have we had that kind of trouble since 1914???
Another place that mentions this same time period is at Rev 6:2-8, where we see Jesus on a white horse receiving a Crown, and goes riding along with the other three Horses, WAR, Famine, Death of all kinds. Exactly what has happened since 1914. The prophecy continues in Rev 19:11-21, wheree Jesus rides forth CONQUERING, Rev 6:2.
The Bible is filled with prophecies.I could go on all day. Something very important is: God has promised that He would not allow His word to become adulterated, Ps 12:6,7, Prov 30:5,6, 1Pet 1:25.
Another line that proves God has had the Bible written is knowledge that NO ONE on earth knew at the time of the Bible being written.
The Bible says that the earth is round, and hanging on nothing, Job 26:7,10, Isa 40:22. In those days Mythology had many theories about the earth, all silly, but the God who created all things knew.
It was only during the 19th century when scientists realized that the Bible was right where it said that the HARE chewed it's CUD. Scientists pointed to this as an example of a Bible error. Just one of the many tomes that critics of the Bible have been REDFACED, when they had to admit that they had been wrong.
The sanitary regulations that God gave to the Israelites were much better that the surrounding nations had. God knew what caused diseases, men did not, Deut 4:5-8.
There are so very many things that can be used as proof that God is the real author of His Book, even though He used about 40ty men to pen it.
Even the Bibel shows that only a Wilfully BLIND person will not see these things, Rom 1:16-20.
Etritonakin
Well-Known Member
H6440
פּנים
pânı̂ym
paw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנהpâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437); the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications (literally and figuratively).............................
"from amid the fire" -there is no contradiction. He was present.
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It really would make no difference WHAT I told you, you would not believe or understand in your present frame of mind 1Cor.2v14.
TEXASBULL
Member
short answer.... No
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
You seem to be ignorant of how the Bible was transmitted to man and how man preserved the word.
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Tre-L
Two Tears In a Bucket
The Word of God is Love, Jesus the manifestation of. The bible is a book .... Nothing more nothing less.
Know love,
Tre-L