The world being made especially for humans doesn't line up with reality and facts

[waitasec]

it is a duty upon every muslim to gain knowledge, the quran says to look at the creation and reflect. what is outside the earths atmosphere (the open space) is part of the creation and studying that part of creation again is a duty onto us (humans) therefore i wanted to see roaches go to outer space.

roaches and bacteria aren't intelligent like us. nothing is, nothing on earth can compare to us in terms or intelligence. and it is intelligence that raises us above all other creatures. physically we are weak, i don't know the name of that bug that can lift more it's own body weight. if you compare us to it we are weak, but through our intelligence we have created machines that can lift more that our body weight.

curious, what do you think of iman hamid al-ghazali?

do you think intelligence is what makes humans superior?
i think it is dangerous to even suppose we are superior only because it gives us an undue sense of importance...
whats that parable...a haughty spirit comes before a fall

 

[Rainbow Mage]

We are only superior to some animals, if you want to call it being superior, because we've discovered how to subject them to us through the use of weapons and fear tactics. Gorillas, tigers, etc. are not animals that would naturally subject themselves to us. Eselam that argument fails.

 

[Vansdad]

Because it is. Harsh is harsh. There are varying degrees of harshness. The many places on this planet where it's hard living conditions for humans and less then half of the planet is what we'd call "ideal" living conditions seem to knock down the idea of a world made "especially for us".

Lol, the Earth isn't a perfect place to live. If it was, then things like sunburn wouldn't happen. Hypothermia, sun stroke, deserts, etc. Humans adapt to environment, just like most animals do. If this Earth was made perfect like some religions state, then these wouldn't be issues. Heck the Earth is mostly covered in water that we can't even drink without running it through some sort of desalinization process.

I think you are both being so nit picky. It's the only planet that supports life. And there is an eco system at work but are you asking for the garden of eden? lol

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I think you are both being so nit picky. It's the only planet that supports life. And there is an eco system at work but are you asking for the garden of eden? lol

No we're pointing out that this world was not made "especially for us" as it is not suited "especially to our needs".

 

[Morpheus]

No we're pointing out that this world was not made "especially for us" as it is not suited "especially to our needs".

I think this is a very superfiscial view, and makes a great many assumptions that are not necessarily true. First we should define what our 'needs' are. What we think are our needs are often selfish wants. Also you first have to define why we are here. If you assume we are here to accumulate stuff, then you may be quite correct. But if we are here to learn and evolve to heights of all human possibility, a feat which may only be achieved through overcoming, then I think we may have a perfectly suited world.
I am reminded of the saying "nothing grows on the top of the mountain". All growth is found on its slopes, where the going is difficult. The aim however is still the top.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I think this is a very superfiscial view, and makes a great many assumptions that are not necessarily true. First we should define what our 'needs' are. What we think are our needs are often selfish wants. Also you first have to define why we are here. If you assume we are here to accumulate stuff, then you may be quite correct. But if we are here to learn and evolve to heights of all human possibility, a feat which may only be achieved through overcoming, then I think we may have a perfectly suited world.
I am reminded of the saying "nothing grows on the top of the mountain". All growth is found on its slopes, where the going is difficult. The aim however is still the top.

Ask why anything else is here- through millions of years of evolution. That's probably why we're here then.

 

[Vansdad]

No we're pointing out that this world was not made "especially for us" as it is not suited "especially to our needs".

I'm not sure why you think this world was made "especially for us" and "especially to meet our needs" (besides who's us - don't the other animals count too) but you are alive here and wouldn't be alive anywhere else.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I'm not sure why you think this world was made "especially for us" and "especially to meet our needs" (besides who's us - don't the other animals count too) but you are alive here and wouldn't be alive anywhere else.

Vansdad are you aware that this planet started out in a state that wasn't suitable for any life? I'm not sure how much stock you put in science, but according to science, it took millions of years for the earth to even become habitable for more complicated life.

 

[ninerbuff]

How can you say "This world is a brutal and sometimes harsh place where people struggle to survive", when it's the only inhabitle planet we know of? All the others are impossible to even live on.

In our solar system. And lol, god is all powerful remember? If this entity is that powerful, it could have constructed our make up to withstand living on ANY planet.

 

[ninerbuff]

I think you are both being so nit picky. It's the only planet that supports life. And there is an eco system at work but are you asking for the garden of eden? lol

Lol nitpicky. Like I said, this god you believe in SHOULD be able to create life anywhere if all powerful. Guess that ain't the case.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The disagreement is only in your opinion because scripture states otherwise! I quote:

”O SON OF BOUNTY!
“Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things. Thus, ere thou didst issue from thy mother’s womb, I destined for thee two founts of gleaming milk, eyes to watch over thee, and hearts to love thee. Out of My loving-kindness, ’neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals….”
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #32

Peace,

Bruce

 

[LuisDantas]

I thought Bahais did not believe in scripture over teaching and/or fact?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The disagreement is only in your opinion because scripture states otherwise! I quote:

”O SON OF BOUNTY!
“Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things. Thus, ere thou didst issue from thy mother’s womb, I destined for thee two founts of gleaming milk, eyes to watch over thee, and hearts to love thee. Out of My loving-kindness, ’neath the shade of My mercy I nurtured thee, and guarded thee by the essence of My grace and favor. And My purpose in all this was that thou mightest attain My everlasting dominion and become worthy of My invisible bestowals….”
--The Hidden Words, Part One, #32

Peace,

Bruce

So the purpose of the universe is to allow humanity to get to Heaven/God's kingdom?

In that case, it seems remarkably inefficient to me.

 

[BruceDLimber]

So the purpose of the universe is to allow humanity to get to Heaven/God's kingdom?

In part, yes, as well as to promote an ever-advancing, evolving civilization!

In that case, it seems remarkably inefficient to me.

Then I suggest you complain to the manufacturer.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

I thought Bahais did not believe in scripture over teaching and/or fact?

So sorry, but your question is unclear.

In hope that this will answer you, yes, we have scripture (fully 200 volumes of our own scripture!); and yes, scripture takes precedence over human opinion.

As to facts, properly viewed, science and religion agree, and indeed the Baha'i scriptures praise science quite highly! I quote:

"[E]ven in Europe it is admitted that religion is the opponent of science, and that science is the destroyer of the foundations of religion. While the religion of God is the promoter of truth, the founder of science and knowledge, it is full of goodwill for learned men; it is the civilizer of mankind, the discoverer of the secrets of nature, and the enlightener of the horizons of the world. Consequently, how can it be said to oppose knowledge? God forbid! Nay, for God, knowledge is the most glorious gift of man and the most noble of human perfections. To oppose knowledge is ignorant, and he who detests knowledge and science is not a man, but rather an animal without intelligence. For knowledge is light, life, felicity, perfection, beauty and the means of approaching the Threshold of Unity. It is the honor and glory of the world of humanity, and the greatest bounty of God. Knowledge is identical with guidance, and ignorance is real error.
"Happy are those who spend their days in gaining knowledge, in discovering the secrets of nature, and in penetrating the subtleties of pure truth! Woe to those who are contented with ignorance, whose hearts are gladdened by thoughtless imitation, who have fallen into the lowest depths of ignorance and foolishness, and who have wasted their lives!"

­Some Answered Questions, p. 137
(If you were asking something else, then please repeat and clarify the question. Thank you.)

Peace,

Bruce

 

[LuisDantas]

scripture takes precedence over human opinion.

That is the thing. It is the other way around for me, and I once believed that was also the Bahai stance on the matter.

 

[fallingblood]

In other words ES, Islam is like Christianity, it wants to dictate true science by what agrees with itself, and discard what is inconvenient.

It's ignorant and really condescending statements like that that make me want to disagree with everything you say.

Also, I can tell you from personal experience, that animals are not afraid of weapons unless they were taught in some way to be so. When I herded cow, I didn't need anything except a four wheeler and my dog. I didn't make them submit to what I wanted by fear or by weapons. They were simply trained enough (in the case of the dog) or motivated in the correct way (in the case of the cows). There was no fear involved. And really, that has to do with most animals. I've pulled a gun on many animals, and they don't care.


As for whether or not the Earth was created for us, I hate to do this, but I have to agree with you. But I think your way of arguing it simply fails. You haven't provided any evidence. You claim some areas are harsh, yet they are still suitable for human life, which is shown by the fact that people live there.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Scripture takes precedence over human opinion.

That is the thing. It is the other way around for me, and I once believed that was also the Bahai stance on the matter.

What?!

It IS the "Baha'i stance," as I just said!

So again, I'm not sure what you're saying.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[LuisDantas]

Explicitly, I say that scripture can't reasonably be taken over human judgement or fact. If the Bahais usually do, then I am glad that I decided against becoming one.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Explicitly, I say that scripture can't reasonably be taken over human judgement or fact.

Even if we stipulate that scripture is of divine origin?!

Bruce