Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Sorry that I quoted the wrong person.
What question? I never asked one!
To whit: "What do you believe happened in 1844?"
I know what happened, but I don't think ytou're asking me.
Regards,
Scott
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The Year 1844
- Thread starter zikr
- Start date
To whit: "What do you believe happened in 1844?"
I know what happened, but I don't think ytou're asking me.
Regards,
Scott
+Xausted
Well-Known Member
I never asked that! It was from the OP. Thats why it was written in black and not my trade mark colour purple, and it said above it "zirkr quote "
. The other thing was refaring to who ever said that it foretold in the Bible that people would know, and I was just quoting another passage that says the opposite.
Probably how I wrote it, so sorry for the misunderstanding
cardero
Citizen Mod
stealing thunder no doubt
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
This post should clarify my position concerning the year 1844 and the Second Coming. This Scripture will state that there will be false prophets and that the coming of Jesus will 1) come form the sky. 2) Will come with angels. 3) Everyone in all nations will know about it and will mourn.
There has been no recorded event of such magnitude, which clearly points to a future date and not 1844.
Yes, it will. But in a very obvious way.
Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Scott, pay attention.
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Scott, here it is again.
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
There has been no recorded event of this magnitude.
28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
There has been no recorded event of such magnitude, which clearly points to a future date and not 1844.
Yes, it will. But in a very obvious way.
Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
Scott, pay attention.
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Scott, here it is again.
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
There has been no recorded event of this magnitude.
28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
So, to you, Jesus will come down out of the sky observed simulataneously in every degree of lattitude, making such an announcement that no one's faith will be tested and no one will have to stretch their spiritual sense to embrace the event.
How fair is that to the individuals who had the moral and spiritual perspicacity to "put their souls at risk" to believe anyway.
All will be given the proof of Thomas whether they wish to do so or not?
I'm surprised you're not a mormon at this point. THey believe that happened for the people of America between the time that Jesus gave up the spirit on the cross and returned to the Apostles in Palestine on the third day.
To put it simply:
1) The Gospel had been preached unto the nations.
2) The Jews were able to re-settle after almost 2,000 years of enforced exile.
3) The time of Desolation described in Daniel had come to an end.
There had always been 'false prophets'.
The admonition to beware those false claimants was obviously given in the understanding that eventually in the satisfaction of the promises given by Jesus in the first place, that a true Prophet would eventually make the claim.
Welcome to the dilemma of the Pharisees. Who was to be satisfied by the Hand of God writing across the heavens, the new Sanhedrin or the will of God?
Regards,
Scott
How fair is that to the individuals who had the moral and spiritual perspicacity to "put their souls at risk" to believe anyway.
All will be given the proof of Thomas whether they wish to do so or not?
I'm surprised you're not a mormon at this point. THey believe that happened for the people of America between the time that Jesus gave up the spirit on the cross and returned to the Apostles in Palestine on the third day.
To put it simply:
1) The Gospel had been preached unto the nations.
2) The Jews were able to re-settle after almost 2,000 years of enforced exile.
3) The time of Desolation described in Daniel had come to an end.
There had always been 'false prophets'.
The admonition to beware those false claimants was obviously given in the understanding that eventually in the satisfaction of the promises given by Jesus in the first place, that a true Prophet would eventually make the claim.
Welcome to the dilemma of the Pharisees. Who was to be satisfied by the Hand of God writing across the heavens, the new Sanhedrin or the will of God?
Regards,
Scott
Jeremy Mason
Well-Known Member
That what Jesus said, read it again. One's faith is tested everyday.
I'm not quite sure what your asking here.
Blessed are the people who don't see the proof of Thomas and believe.
Really? I'll have to reference that one.
I'll give you that one even though I'm sure there were still group of people who had no idea about Jesus and what his message was about. Ever read a book called "Peace Child" by Don Richardson?
Ummm....!844 and 1947. Your a 100 years off.
Read this
What is the abomination of desolation?
You got that one right. Meatloaf said, "2 out of 3 aint bad", but 2 out of 10?
Where in the Bible does it say that, Scott?
I see what your saying, but Jesus clearly states the conditions of the Second Coming and to not be fooled into thinking that another man would in any way be Jesus. Jesus will come the way he left and not from two parents here on earth.
arthra
Baha'i
I think the "false prophets" charge though mertioned in scripture refer to those already in the early Church ...
The false prophet charge is a common one though..
I suppose the Pharisees levelled it against Jesus when they referred to Him as using demons to cast out demons..or called Him a wine bibber because He associated with the wrong crowd..
- Art
The false prophet charge is a common one though..
I suppose the Pharisees levelled it against Jesus when they referred to Him as using demons to cast out demons..or called Him a wine bibber because He associated with the wrong crowd..
- Art
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
To say "Beware false Prophets!" is to admit the corollary, Jeremy.
I know what the abmonination of desolation is qne iw not, the article you cite is superficial at best, and down right wrong at worst.
The Book of Daniel not only defines the Abmonation of Desolation as beginning with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, but also defines the first abmoniation of the Temple before the Babylonian captivity.
I read your citation, dutifully, will you do the same for me?
Some Answered Questions, Pages 35-44
When you've finished that, you will understand where I am coming from when discussing the Abomination of Desolation, and we will have a common ground for further discussion.
Regards,
Scott
I know what the abmonination of desolation is qne iw not, the article you cite is superficial at best, and down right wrong at worst.
The Book of Daniel not only defines the Abmonation of Desolation as beginning with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, but also defines the first abmoniation of the Temple before the Babylonian captivity.
I read your citation, dutifully, will you do the same for me?
Some Answered Questions, Pages 35-44
When you've finished that, you will understand where I am coming from when discussing the Abomination of Desolation, and we will have a common ground for further discussion.
Regards,
Scott
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
That's a good point. If you believe in the orthodox understanding as depicted in the Bible, Jesus was raised into Heaven bodily, it would be quite unnecessary for him to shed that body and reincarnate.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
It's not a matter of ascent and descent. The Spirit of God remains in heaven aoways, even when it is here on eart, and it isw here on earth always even when it is in heaven--there is no spritual elevator, there is no bilocation involved.
Gleanings, pp. 46-47
XIX: To every discerning and illuminated heart it... "1To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."...
2The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.
3These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.... These Tabernacles of Holiness, these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest."
Regards,
Scott
The date of 1844 is all false. William Miller who first came up with the date 1843 for Christ return, then when that failed changed it to 1844 and when that failed came right out a few years latter and said that 1844 was also false - he said he was wrong and was sorry he created the mess. If anyone should know the truth about 1844 it should be William Miller don't you think.
As for the country of Israel restarting in 1947. The Israel of today in not remotley like the Israel of 2000 years ago. 85% of the people that live in todays Israel are not of the seed of Seth. They call them selves Jews but do not pratice Jewism. Their Great-great grand fathers of over 1000 years ago were converted to Jewisum and they call themselves Jews in name only. In one of the Kibits I stayed in for over a month in the Jordon valley ever friday night they showed movies in an outdoor screen. Non of the people go to the [sinagod] on the sabbath. arlan
As for the country of Israel restarting in 1947. The Israel of today in not remotley like the Israel of 2000 years ago. 85% of the people that live in todays Israel are not of the seed of Seth. They call them selves Jews but do not pratice Jewism. Their Great-great grand fathers of over 1000 years ago were converted to Jewisum and they call themselves Jews in name only. In one of the Kibits I stayed in for over a month in the Jordon valley ever friday night they showed movies in an outdoor screen. Non of the people go to the [sinagod] on the sabbath. arlan
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Some Answered Questions, Pages 35-44
As an aside, I take it you are not Jewish? Or is English not your first language?
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
As an aside, I take it you are not Jewish? Or is English not your first language?
Regards,
Scott
Regards,
Scott
InGodWeTrust
Member
I think I could say something about belief in 1844, being raised as a Seventh Day Adventist. It is the judgment, as in the Day of Atonement, where the high priest goes into the Most Holy Place to cleanse the place of the accumulated sin from the daily sacrifice. The people of the earth undergo what we call the investigative judgment. It started in 1844 with the first people who lived and died through out history and works its way through until they reach the people who are still alive.
InGodWeTrust ~ I also grew up as a SDA for over 50 years of my 76 years and the date 1844 is not in the bible at all. The whole adventist case for 1844 depends upon a lot of "assuming & suggests" and "it seems clear" plus lots of missing evidence from Ellen Whites writings. William Miller had nothing to do with forming the date of Oct. 22, 1844. William has caululated 1843 first then next the spring of 1844. In Aug 1844 Samual S. Snow launched the so-called "seventh-month movement" and Miller went along with it but when it came and passed Miller said it was all a bunch of whoie. This is what the adventist church is built upon. arlan
InGodWeTrust
Member
The story about all that is in "Early Writings". I think it may have been a convenient way to push the whole thing under the rug, so to speak. (making it something going on in heaven, instead of on earth) Better than what the JW's did, trying to get more mileage out of it.
InGodWeTrust
Member
Nice to meet you, anyway. I always have to wonder how many people on religious forums are former SDA. Most people do not even know what it is. I still belong to the church and show up some times. I have a friend who is my sister's husband's cousin who is SDA and it has gotten my interest level in the religion sparked, somewhat. He is big into E G White and reads all the SDA theologians and writes letters to the leaders of the church. Mostly what it does to me is to brink up anti-Catholic sentiments. It is actually self destructive to get all wrapped up in.
I do think about the judgment and the end of the world and the Sabbath, and I guess it is good to keep those things in mind. Another influence of my cousin. I was getting pretty complacent about the Sabbath but now, I have been getting into arguments about it on different forums.
As for 1844, I think it might be worthwhile to look into possible explanations for it. It seems to be talking about something. If we can figure it out, it might be a good thing. I know I have gotten into a couple of arguments with evangelicals about some system they use for their plan of rebuilding the Temple, or something. If for no other reason than to put a damper on that sort of foolishness, it would be worth it.
I do think about the judgment and the end of the world and the Sabbath, and I guess it is good to keep those things in mind. Another influence of my cousin. I was getting pretty complacent about the Sabbath but now, I have been getting into arguments about it on different forums.
As for 1844, I think it might be worthwhile to look into possible explanations for it. It seems to be talking about something. If we can figure it out, it might be a good thing. I know I have gotten into a couple of arguments with evangelicals about some system they use for their plan of rebuilding the Temple, or something. If for no other reason than to put a damper on that sort of foolishness, it would be worth it.
InGodWeTrust ~ Hello to you to - I was a third generation adventist - I almost went into the ministery when I was young, in my late teens, but luckly l didn't. My younger brother Ralph did became an adventist minister with a Doctor of Divinity title. As I grew farther away from the SDA church I keep asking him questions about the SDA church which he couldn't answer like Dan 8:14 / 1844 and the Sabbath etc. After many pointed questions my brother would not answer my religous questions. I was surounded with 3 cousins adventist ministers which I keep asking pointed qoestion. Over the years one left the church. The second one retired then left the church and the last one died in office but I think I had him wondering about his church and how they brain wash the people with false info. One of these days I will start a new thread on the subject on the Sabbath. For the last 20 years I have offered $5000 to any adventist that can prove from the bible that Dan. 8:14 = 1844. So far I still have my $5000. arlan
InGodWeTrust
Member
Arlanbb,
My brother went through the system and before he was finished he got into trouble and kicked out of school over some little-known (secret?) rule. It was a technicality that would have kept him out for the semester and he could have come back. Instead, he joined the military. He became an elder at a local congregational church. (near the base) He taught the Morning Class or whatever they call it, the think that happens before the main service. You would think that would be pretty low pressure. He had a big following and was good for attendance. He told the Chuch leaders that he thought he should step down because he was not sure if he believed in any of it anymore. They were horrified that he would quit and talked him into continuing because they did not care about his personal beliefs, as long as he kept people coming to hear him.
As for your brother, he may have not been taught more than a very superficial understanding of the date prophesies and never had anyone, other than you, ever question him about it.
My brother went through the system and before he was finished he got into trouble and kicked out of school over some little-known (secret?) rule. It was a technicality that would have kept him out for the semester and he could have come back. Instead, he joined the military. He became an elder at a local congregational church. (near the base) He taught the Morning Class or whatever they call it, the think that happens before the main service. You would think that would be pretty low pressure. He had a big following and was good for attendance. He told the Chuch leaders that he thought he should step down because he was not sure if he believed in any of it anymore. They were horrified that he would quit and talked him into continuing because they did not care about his personal beliefs, as long as he kept people coming to hear him.
As for your brother, he may have not been taught more than a very superficial understanding of the date prophesies and never had anyone, other than you, ever question him about it.
InGodWeTrust
Member
There was a well known SDA theologian from Australia named Jeffrey Paxton who was writing about some of these old teachings and was getting flak from the church. They staged a "debate" at the Loma Linda campus, between him and the man who wrote the definitive SDA book on the issue, called The Two Temples. I went to it and it was kind of a surreal experience to me. Here was this old man who probably had a nice pension from the church, onstage with the young minister trying to keep his job. I got the impression that long ago, he was a young minister and was given the assignment to write this book and later just forgot about it.
Like I said before, most people would rather give it some brief lip service and them forget it, rather than put themselves to where they could be ridiculed. My cousin could tell you about how fast the SDA is backpedaling from their history and old beliefs.
So keep your money because no one cares. If you want to get in an argument, the JW's will get into it with you. My advice is to ignore the SDA because they are nothing like what it was when you were a kid, I can guarantee that. No offense to you, I hope you understand.
Like I said before, most people would rather give it some brief lip service and them forget it, rather than put themselves to where they could be ridiculed. My cousin could tell you about how fast the SDA is backpedaling from their history and old beliefs.
So keep your money because no one cares. If you want to get in an argument, the JW's will get into it with you. My advice is to ignore the SDA because they are nothing like what it was when you were a kid, I can guarantee that. No offense to you, I hope you understand.
InGodWeTrust ~ For over 26 years I have ignored them but I do have many friends and some family that are in the church in fact everyother Sat. night I play Seven handed Rook with 5 adventist. So I know what you talk of. Now back to the original question about Dan 8:14 and 1844. It is not there no matter how you twist the scriptures around. arlan