The Zimmerman Trial

[Magic Man]

There is such a thing as responding to a threat with an unjustified amount of force. For instance, you're not allowed shoot someone because he slaps you in the face. How about he tells GZ that he better stay down and then RUNS to a safe location. He clearly would've had the opportunity once he had dropped GZ. And if George is the coward we all think he is there's about 99% chance he would heeded such a warning to stay down. Even from a moral point of view, the kid should've at least given George a chance to give up. Raining blows on him mma style until he's in a comma or dies cannot be justified on the grounds that there's chance he MIGHT get up again. And what's so wild about assuming that George had been dropped from a punch and then Martin climbed on him MMA style basically trying to kill him? GZ certainly lie down voluntarily. Or do you propose Trayvon simply asked him to lie down and George complied with the request? Is anyone even arguing against the claim that GZ was dropped by Martin at which point an MMA style beatdown commenced? Even the prosecution, a sad excuse for a bunch of litigators, had to change their tune and concede that Martin was on top when he was shot.

Let's break down these assumptions you're making:

1) Martin used more force than was necessary (like shooting someone for slapping you in the face). We have no idea. When a kid is being followed by a man at night and is then confronted, he's justifiably not thinking "Exactly how much force is necessary to just make sure I'm safe but no more". He's justifiably thinking "Crap, I need to protect myself; I don't know who this is or what he's capable of".

2) "How about he tells GZ that he better stay down and then RUNS to a safe location. He clearly would've had the opportunity once he had dropped GZ. And if George is the coward we all think he is there's about 99% chance he would heeded such a warning to stay down."

First, we have no idea how the altercation went. We don't know that he just dropped Zimmerman and then had the chance to run. And telling a complete stranger who has been threatening you to stay down while you run away might sound great in hindsight when the whole situation can be looked at, but that's not how it works when you're in the situation. This is the main problem with all of your assumptions: you're looking at it with a whole lot more info than Martin would have had at the time, and you're looking at it less emotionally and more rationally than someone who's being threatened and is trying to protect themselves.

3) "Even from a moral point of view, the kid should've at least given George a chance to give up. Raining blows on him mma style until he's in a comma or dies cannot be justified on the grounds that there's chance he MIGHT get up again. And what's so wild about assuming that George had been dropped from a punch and then Martin climbed on him MMA style basically trying to kill him? GZ certainly lie down voluntarily. Or do you propose Trayvon simply asked him to lie down and George complied with the request? Is anyone even arguing against the claim that GZ was dropped by Martin at which point an MMA style beatdown commenced?"

Yes, people are arguing against the wild assumption that an MMA style beatdown commenced. It's a given that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, but there isn't sufficient evidence for your assumption that he was raining blows on him or that it was MMA style or that he was trying to put him in a coma or kill him. You're welcome to assume all of that, but you need to realize it's just an assumption, not close to a fact.

The bottom line is you have this idea of how it went that isn't proven by what we know. It's possible things went the way you think they did, but don't act like it's fact.

 

[Magic Man]

Why sanitize Martin's racist remark?

Interesting that you feel the need to mischaracterize "putting in context" as "sanitizing".

You said what you said.

Correct. I said what I said, not what you accused me of saying. You'd do well to learn the difference.

Regret it now?

Regret what now? I said I wish there had been a punishment for him, because what he did deserved some kind of punishment. This is after I said the jury was right in not convicting him of manslaughter. If you read that honestly and in an unbiased way, you see that you'd have nothing to fear from me being on a jury like this, because I wouldn't just convict someone in a case like this because I wanted to. If you'd prefer to paint me in a light that makes your worldview work, you could twist it into false accusations, like you did.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

An Hispanic gal who did accounting work for me is as white as they come....blue eyes, brown hair, & as full a member of whatever the club is as any white folk I know. I know other Hispanics who claim to be not "white", but look white, & don't seem to fit in any differently. I also know Hispanics who are darker, shorter, mow lawns, & fit the stereotype, but "the club" doesn't seem to give'm any problem. Could it be where I live or you live?
But this latest new racial class, the "white Hispanic" seems to be the worst of all worlds....one who earns the scorn of oppressor who isn't reaping any of the supposed benefits of oppressing anyone.

If you asked that girl if she considers herself white, what would she say? I have blonde-hair blue-eyed cousins that get offended when people call them white. My sister and mother are pale as they come, and could pass for Caucasian, but neither of them consider themselves white.
As for fitting in with white people; it very well might be a difference in where we live. Where I'm from the Hispanic and black people stick together for the most part and we are both equally looked down on by the white people. I'm speaking generally, of course; I have a bunch of white friends. I fit the stereotype of what a Hispanic person is supposed to look like pretty well (I'm short, have a year-round tan, and obvious Latino features), and have never been called white by anybody. I could only imagine the looks I would get if I told a room full of white people that I consider myself one of them. But hey, maybe that would change if I shot a black kid...

On a sidenote; I HATE the label "white Hispanic". Whenever I have to fill out a "race bubble" that has "white Hispanic" or "black Hispanic" as the options rather than "Latino", I fill in "other".

 

[Revoltingest]

If you asked that girl if she considers herself white, what would she say? I have blonde-hair blue-eyed cousins that get offended when people call them white. My sister and mother are pale as they come, and could pass for Caucasian, but neither of them consider themselves white.

I suspect she'd say "white", but it isn't the kind of thing I ever thought of asking.

As for fitting in with white people; it very well might be a difference in where we live. Where I'm from the Hispanic and black people stick together for the most part and we are both equally looked down on by the white people. I'm speaking generally, of course; I have a bunch of white friends. I fit the stereotype of what a Hispanic person is supposed to look like pretty well (I'm short, have a year-round tan, and obvious Latino features), and have never been called white by anybody. I could only imagine the looks I would get if I told a room full of white people that I consider myself one of them. But hey, maybe that would change if I shot a black kid...

If you asked me nicely, I'd be glad to call you "white".

On a sidenote; I HATE the label "white Hispanic". Whenever I have to fill out a "race bubble" that has "white Hispanic" or "black Hispanic" as the options rather than "Latino", I fill in "other".

I cross out all the options & write in what suits me at the moment....."American", "Libertarian", "Human" or "Groundskeeper".

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

If you asked me nicely, I'd be glad to call you "white".

Does that come with a "don't pull me over" pass? I could definitely use one of those. You ever been a passenger in a car that got pulled over and been the only person asked for ID (true story)?

I cross out all the options & write in what suits me at the moment....."American", "Libertarian", "Human" or "Groundskeeper".

F#$&'in A bro... Way to stick it to the man and his labels

 

[Revoltingest]

Does that come with a "don't pull me over" pass? I could definitely use one of those. You ever been a passenger in a car that got pulled over and been the only person asked for ID (true story)?

Alas, I have no control over cops.
They aren't much use to me either.

F#$&'in A bro... Way to stick it to the man and his labels

The Man deserves it.
Shaka brah!

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Alas, I have no control over cops.
They aren't much use to me either.

Then what good are you?:verymad:

 

[Revoltingest]

Then what good are you?:verymad:

Not much.
Just read my posts.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Not much.
Just read my posts.

That's OK. The media says all I have to do to become white is shoot a black person.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

That's OK. The media says all I have to do to become white is shoot a black person.

That's not sufficient. You have to get away with it, too.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

That's not sufficient. You have to get away with it, too.

The media (and a lot of you) were (and still are) calling Zimmerman white long before the verdict. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same courtesy?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The media (and a lot of you) were (and still are) calling Zimmerman white long before the verdict. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same courtesy?

I don't understand how "a lot of me" can be calling anyone anything. There is only one "me", and I don't recall calling Zimmerman white. In any case I agree with you the media has confused the race issue in this case.

BTW I have a Hispanic/Mexican friend who considers herself white. Not that it matters, I just thought you might find it interesting. Perhaps there's a less clear-cut division in Texas than in Boston.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I don't understand how "a lot of me" can be calling anyone anything. There is only one "me", and I don't recall calling Zimmerman white. In any case I agree with you the media has confused the race issue in this case.

Not YOU specifically. "You" as in people in this thread. Plural "you"

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Not YOU specifically. "You" as in people in this thread. Plural "you"

I know what you meant. Since you were addressing me, specifically, I just wanted to distinguish myself from unspecified "people in this thread". For the record.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

BTW I have a Hispanic/Mexican friend who considers herself white. Not that it matters, I just thought you might find it interesting. Perhaps there's a less clear-cut division in Texas than in Boston.

Interesting. I've honestly never met ONE in my life; including my family in Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. They distinguish between light and dark skin, but don't assign separate labels; we're still considered one group of people.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The media (and a lot of you) were (and still are) calling Zimmerman white long before the verdict. Why shouldn't I be afforded the same courtesy?

Since they didn't charge him right away, people were assuming he was guilty and got away with it long before the verdict.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is an international uproar in response to this case. I only wish we could see the same fervor focused on the proliferation of guns on the streets of this country.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is an international uproar in response to this case. I only wish we could see the same fervor focused on the proliferation of guns on the streets of this country.

Well said.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

The last thing we need is people to apply the same delusion towards gun control. If anything this case shows how useful a gun is to have.

 

[dust1n]

I don't know who told you this... I for one, am a Hispanic person that doesn't consider myself white at all. And no Hispanic person I know or have ever known considers his/herself white... I challenge you to find ONE Hispanic person that says they're white. Or a white person that considers Hispanic people to be white. White people sure as hell don't treat us like we're part of the club...

What if I found you 26.7 million?

In the 2010 United States Census, 50.5 million Americans (16.3% of the total population) listed themselves as ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 53.0% (26.7 million) self-identified as racially white. The remaining respondents listed their races as: Some other race 36.7%, Two or more races (aka multiracial) 6.0%, Black or African American 2.5%, American Indian and Alaska Native 1.4%, Asian 0.4%, and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander 0.1%.[15]

White Hispanic and Latino Americans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is not to say that the bold part is not true or is not reflective of the fact that North Americans don't generally identify people of Hispanic nature white.