The Zimmerman Trial

[Revoltingest]

Better pull out the rocking chair .Any day now...

It happens before you know it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

At first, I was thinking "Oh man, he killed a child he's going to get it bad". Now that I notice that all of the people that are "supporting" Trayvon are thinking about his race, and now that I know Trayvon beat Zimmerman up, I'm no longer on that side.

I was never on the racist side, I never thought there'd be one.

 

[YmirGF]

Late young? Early middle age? LOL!!! Sorry if you are still in your 20's there is no way in my mind to try and twist it to "getting on in years".

And if he is that fragile and aged why the heck is he running around playing rambo?

I have a 23 yo that is exactly his height and around the same weight.Sure he has a little extra around the middle but he's no weakling .

Pffft. Life doesn't even begin before one reaches 40. Little puppies....

You know you're getting old when you think the clerk in the store left their lollipop on the counter to come and chat you up. I remember one time when I actually asked some exuberant youth if I could speak to their mommy or daddy. (True story.)

 

[Poisonshady313]

For all we know Zimmerman started it and it was Martin who was defending himself. Of course we will probably never know because Martin wasn't there to tell his side of the story.

I find it highly unlikely that a fully grown man needed to "defend" himself against a lanky teenager who was 5'6" or 5'8" at the most, weighing 140-150 pounds. Zimmerman acted like a power-hungry cop in some tin-pot dictatorship like Russia or North Korea who shoots at unarmed protestors and then claims "self-defense".

When you get punched in the face with a blow that breaks your nose, and then your head is slammed into the concrete, you're not necessarily in a position to be able to really fight back. I don't mean specifically YOU... I mean the general "you". You're in pain, and all you want is for it to stop. And when he called out for help, and saw that nobody was helping him, he did what he could to make it stop.

Zimmerman could have died. He could have sustained serious head injury. He didn't... but he could have. And he reasonably feared that he would have. I don't think he meant to kill Martin. He just needed to stop Martin. And he did.

 

[Poisonshady313]

a lanky teenager who was 5'6" or 5'8" at the most, weighing 140-150 pounds.

5'11". Taller than Zimmerman. And only 30 lbs lighter.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I think Zimmerman should have been found guilty. He had no business following Trayvon around in the first place, and had Trayvon been a white kid named Tommy instead,

Because Martin had a nametag that said 'Hi, my name is Trayvon", right?

I'll bet that Zimmerman wouldn't have even taken any action.

I bet you're wrong.

The police told him to back off but he didn't listen.

You don't know that he didn't listen. He said "ok". What proof do you have that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin after he said "ok"?

He should have at least been found guilty of manslaughter. Even if he wasn't looking for a fight (which I don't believe), he certainly acted out of order and was negligent in his actions. Let's remember that Zimmerman got a trial; Trayvon didn't even get that - Zimmerman decided he was judge, jury and executioner on the spot.

You're making so many assumptions which are not proved by the evidence.

 

[DallasApple]

Pffft. Life doesn't even begin before one reaches 40. Little puppies....

You know you're getting old when you think the clerk in the store left their lollipop on the counter to come and chat you up. I remember one time when I actually asked some exuberant youth if I could speak to their mommy or daddy. (True story.)

LOL!! Too true!

I knew I was 'getting on" in years when I would refer say a 20 yo my son was dating as his "little girlfriend" LOL!! I'm like ..."why did I just call her a little girl" That's how old I was when I got married! LOL!!

Also the fact I can not see the younger males in there 20's as "hot".They are 'cute" or even an "attractive young man" but I can't see them as "sex symbols".The boys are safe with me.

Still I'm not ready for a rocking chair by any means.And I'm a grandmother too. If I'm not as strong as I could be that's my fault.

 

[DallasApple]

5'11". Taller than Zimmerman. And only 30 lbs lighter.

O.K but at the same time...Im frequently told that as a female at 5'2 115 lbs at 45 years old I can learn techniques and be able to kick the *** of a 6 ft tall 160 lb man of any age. I have a hard time believing its that simple.

Having said that even .I do not believe the height /weight/age difference between them left Zimmerman a helpless defensless rag doll at the complete mercy of Trayvon.Just not buying it.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

5'11". Taller than Zimmerman. And only 30 lbs lighter.

30 lbs lighter... In other words, the defense's narrative about Treyvon attacking Zimmerman, sitting on his chest and pounding his head into the ground is close to a physical impossibility.

Not to mention that, even if God intervened and granted the strength of Samson to Treyvon, so he COULD hold down a grown man and bash his head into the ground (pretend, for the time being, that this is even REMOTELY PLAUSIBLE), Zimmerman had his gun holstered on the back of his belt- he would have been lying on it, and presumably unable to access it.

And the prosecution never brought this hole in the defense's fictional narrative to the attention of the jurors. Nor did they challenge the witness who tried to justify Zimmerman's racial profiling. Nor did they provide an alternative narrative to the defense's FAIRY TALE.

In other words, the prosecution mailed it in, and given how incompetent they were- not following basic procedures in any criminal prosecution- they should probably be investigated for collusion, or at the very least incompetence on an epic scale.

With a legitimate prosecution, its hard to say whether justice would have miscarried again anyways, but it certainly couldn't have hurt.

A sad chapter in the history of American jurisprudence.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Oh, and then there's the fact that EVEN IF Treyvon initiated a physical confrontation, he likely had every right to do so; he was being followed, harassed, and likely threatened by a man with a gun, who was not a cop, had no authority to be doing what he was doing, and had actually been told by REAL AUTHORITIES to stay in his car.

If I was being followed by a guy with a gun who was harassing me and accusing me of crimes on the basis of the color of my skin, I likely would have bashed his head into the pavement as well- and would be entirely justified in doing so.

 

[Poisonshady313]

O.K but at the same time...

You can stop right there. I wasn't making an argument or offering commentary. I was correcting someone's numbers.

Having said that even .I do not believe the height /weight/age difference between them left Zimmerman a helpless defensless rag doll at the complete mercy of Trayvon.Just not buying it.

Me either.

It was the punch to the face that broke his nose, and the ensuing pounding of Zimmerman's head on the pavement. That'll render him somewhat less than effective at being able to fight back.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Oh, and then there's the fact that EVEN IF Treyvon initiated a physical confrontation, he likely had every right to do so; he was being followed, harassed, and likely threatened by a man with a gun, who was not a cop, had no authority to be doing what he was doing, and had actually been told by REAL AUTHORITIES to stay in his car.

If I was being followed by a guy with a gun who was harassing me and accusing me of crimes on the basis of the color of my skin, I likely would have bashed his head into the pavement as well- and would be entirely justified in doing so.

There's no proof that Martin was harassed, or that he was ever in a position to feel like his life was in imminent danger. He started running 4 minutes before the altercation took place. He didn't go home, which he could have in less than a minute. He made a conscious decision to confront someone he easily could have avoided contact with.

He was never told to stay in his car. He was already out of his car when he was asked "Are you following him"?

And when he said "yes" and they said "we don't need you to do that", he said "ok"

What proof do you have that zimmerman initiated contact with Martin?

How do you know it wasn't as Zimmerman said, that Martin confronted him?

 

[Poisonshady313]

30 lbs lighter... In other words, the defense's narrative about Treyvon attacking Zimmerman, sitting on his chest and pounding his head into the ground is close to a physical impossibility.

Not to mention that, even if God intervened and granted the strength of Samson to Treyvon, so he COULD hold down a grown man and bash his head into the ground (pretend, for the time being, that this is even REMOTELY PLAUSIBLE), Zimmerman had his gun holstered on the back of his belt- he would have been lying on it, and presumably unable to access it.

And the prosecution never brought this hole in the defense's fictional narrative to the attention of the jurors. Nor did they challenge the witness who tried to justify Zimmerman's racial profiling. Nor did they provide an alternative narrative to the defense's FAIRY TALE.

In other words, the prosecution mailed it in, and given how incompetent they were- not following basic procedures in any criminal prosecution- they should probably be investigated for collusion, or at the very least incompetence on an epic scale.

With a legitimate prosecution, its hard to say whether justice would have miscarried again anyways, but it certainly couldn't have hurt.

A sad chapter in the history of American jurisprudence.

I think my other posts dealt with this stuff already.

You are wrong.

And regarding the holster... all he would have needed was to pivot his hips just a little bit to give himself just enough space to reach his hand back there. He didn't need to be Hercules.

You're making a lot of assumptions and treating them as fact. Don't do that.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Question:

Is it entirely possible that both parties were operating from survival instinct? I'd brought up instinct before in another thread when a woman was being molested on a bus and her actions were debated. I brought up my own experience of "fight or flight" instinctive response when assaulted. One doesn't think, one simply acts.

I will also admit that I have not watched the trial, and have only paid attention to the responses from the trial itself (I find the national conversation much more interesting). I was very skeptical of Zimmerman's case when I first heard the story, but not hearing testimony beyond soundbites and I've only seen bits here and there from the trial.

So, I'm reading this thread and just digesting what I can. But the thought did pop up in my head as to how people act and react when they feel they are in imminent danger.

My opinion is not informed enough to be reasonable on Zimmermans innocence, I think. The national conversation on gun laws, the state of Florida (same state that acquitted Casey Anthony, too), racism (black, white, and hispanic), and neighborhood watches have interested me more. It's certainly opened up a lot to talk about, sadly because of the shooting death of a teenaged boy.

Is survival instinct relevant here? I'm asking both sides who are critical and who are supportive of the jury's verdict.

 

[DallasApple]

Is survival instinct relevant here? I'm asking both sides who are critical and who are supportive of the jury's verdict.

I think so.I think both of them had the "hair raised on the back of their neck".Trayvon knew he was being followed by some creepy stranger and had no idea why.Zimmerman had decided he was following some sort of criminal up to no good.On the recording ot the police he made reference as well that he was reaching into his waste band .(probably for his cell phone because he was NOT armed).

 

[Poisonshady313]

Question:

Is it entirely possible that both parties were operating from survival instinct? I'd brought up instinct before in another thread when a woman was being molested on a bus and her actions were debated. I brought up my own experience of "fight or flight" instinctive response when assaulted. One doesn't think, one simply acts.

I will also admit that I have not watched the trial, and have only paid attention to the responses from the trial itself (I find the national conversation much more interesting). I was very skeptical of Zimmerman's case when I first heard the story, but not hearing testimony beyond soundbites and I've only seen bits here and there from the trial.

So, I'm reading this thread and just digesting what I can. But the thought did pop up in my head as to how people act and react when they feel they are in imminent danger.

My opinion is not informed enough to be reasonable on Zimmermans innocence, I think. The national conversation on gun laws, the state of Florida (same state that acquitted Casey Anthony, too), racism (black, white, and hispanic), and neighborhood watches have interested me more. It's certainly opened up a lot to talk about, sadly because of the shooting death of a teenaged boy.

Is survival instinct relevant here? I'm asking both sides who are critical and who are supportive of the jury's verdict.

Trayvon Martin was in good shape. He was a football player. How long would it have taken him to run 70 yards? 30 seconds? Less? 70 yards in a straight line, while Zimmerman was still in his car, scratching his head saying "which way did he go?"

He could have gotten home, locked the door, and called the cops on Zimmerman. And the cops would have shown up, told Zimmerman to go home, everybody lives, everybody's happy.

There was no point at which Trayvon was in imminent danger before he decided to punch Zimmerman in the face. If I'm wrong, please show me the evidence. He could have been angry and/or creeped out that this pudgy hispanic dude was watching him... but this does not justify the use of any force, deadly or otherwise.

Only if you can prove that Zimmerman was threateningly charging at him, pointing his gun at him, or otherwise making it clear that Martin was about to experience serious bodily harm or death... only then can you say that Martin was just defending himself when he decided to break Zimmerman's nose and pound his head into the sidewalk.

But given Martin's ability to get home, and the fact (yes, I said fact) that he chose not to do so... it's reasonable to believe the jury got it right.

 

[Poisonshady313]

On the recording ot the police he made reference as well that he was reaching into his waste band .(probably for his cell phone because he was NOT armed).

Zimmerman didn't know Martin wasn't armed.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think so.I think both of them had the "hair raised on the back of their neck".Trayvon knew he was being followed by some creepy stranger and had no idea why.Zimmerman had decided he was following some sort of criminal up to no good.On the recording ot the police he made reference as well that he was reaching into his waste band .(probably for his cell phone because he was NOT armed).

This interview sheds light on what TM might've thought of GZ's intentions.
Jeantel admits Trayvon ‘whooped’ Zimmerman’s ‘a–’

 

[DallasApple]

Zimmerman didn't know Martin wasn't armed.

But he didn't know he was.And the fact is IMHO he had no business going after him in the first place especially thinking he did.The POLICE told him NOT to.

 

[Revoltingest]

The POLICE told him NOT to.

This is an oft repeated inaccuracy.
The operator only told GZ that he didn't have to follow TM.
(See transcript in earlier post.)