Theist or Atheist ?

[sun rise]

Last question.

Man exercise to keep body fit, why animals don't ?

Animals get enough natural exercise. People don't.

 

[Rizdek]

People who believe in ghosts, but no gods are atheists. People who believe in gods, but no ghosts are theists. People who don't believe in the supernatural, yet believe that the Sun is a material, thinking being with agency whom we should worship are theists.

Regardless, I believe that as our ancestors evolved INTO what we consider to be modern humans, that there were both 'believers' that there were gods and others who didn't believe there were gods..so there would have been both atheists and theists.

 

[ppp]

Regardless, I believe that as our ancestors evolved INTO what we consider to be modern humans, that there were both 'believers' that there were gods and others who didn't believe there were gods..so there would have been both atheists and theists.

I would be completely unsurprised if it were demonstrated that chimps assigned agency to natural phenomenon. Especially scary or painful events. But how would one ever demonstrate it.

 

[Bear Wild]

If so, that time what was the difference between Animals vs Atheists ?

Same as this question
What is the difference between theists vs animals - nothing theist are animals.

 

[Bear Wild]

I would be completely unsurprised if it were demonstrated that chimps assigned agency to natural phenomenon. Especially scary or painful events. But how would one ever demonstrate it.

There is excellent evidence for this from observations in the wild. Jane Goodall first described unusual display behavior near energy rich situations such as water falls and storms. They clearly grieve with death and remember places where loved ones died. Similar with elephants.

 

[Bear Wild]

Last question.

Man exercise to keep body fit, why animals don't ?

Animals exercise in play. Well documented

 

[ppp]

There is excellent evidence for this from observations in the wild. Jane Goodall first described unusual display behavior near energy rich situations such as water falls and storms. They clearly grieve with death and remember places where loved ones died. Similar with elephants.

Yeah! I wanted to bring up the storms thing, but I couldn't remember who to attribute it to. Was thinking it might have been de Waal. Thanks for the jump start.

 

[chinu]

Same as this question
What is the difference between theists vs animals - nothing theist are animals.

Theist build houses and also interested in building temples, churches etc. Whereas, animals build only houses.

Isn’t that the difference?

 

[chinu]

Animals exercise in play. Well documented

Yes animals play and even dance.
But NOT exercise.

I hope you aren’t under the impact of cartoon movies.

 

[chinu]

Thought not, thanks for the honesty

Honesty is the best policy

 

[chinu]

And eat, and drink, and defecate, and rut, and kill, and are born and die, and feel pleasure, and suffer -- and animals do all those things.

Wearing clothes is just one of the ways that a larger brain allows us to alter conditions around us for our own purposes, and lots of animals do that, too -- including use tools, create their own lake environments, build complex homes to care for and raise their young.

We gave up a lot for our bigger brains, that other animals beat us every which way. A chimp can pull your arm out of your socket, you couldn't do the same to her. A dog can smell when your body chemistry shows you might have cancer, and you can't come anywhere close to that. Termites can build mounds of such complexity that they air-condition themselves. There are ants that make slaves of other ant species, and there are ants that plant, fertilize and tend their own mushroom farms for their own food consumption. The lyre bird of Australia can imitate any sound it hears -- from cell phone ring-tones to chainsaws. There are animals that can jump dozens of times their own body lengths, while humans struggle to jump just one.

You should go and take a look at some of the amazing things that animals can do. And every one of them -- including the human propensity for making tools and wearing clothes -- are adapted for the survival and propogation of their species.

Human child is born WITHOUT clothes, so as the child of an animal.
Both the mother's hugs/love their new born child in their own ways.

After some time both the child grow-up.
Now, the mother of human child is ashamed of hugging her grown-up son WITHOUT clothes. But animals don't.

That's what makes the difference.

Try to understand if you can.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You mean tiger knew in advance that when some day any human will come to hug him. That day
That day.. his muscular body which he attained by life time running after antilopes will benefit him doing this task very easily ?

Otherwise it will be somewhat hard for him to do so ?

you are making zero sense.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who fix appointment ?
Cleaver fox ?

Read the quote you are replying to. "they are called humans".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Its Okay.
If you think its your choice.

It's just not relevant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, then what ?

It answers your question concerning why humans exercise. But it seems you're too thick skulled to get it.

 

[ChristineM]

Human child is born WITHOUT clothes, so as the child of an animal.
Both the mother's hugs/love their new born child in their own ways.

After some time both the child grow-up.
Now, the mother of human child is ashamed of hugging her grown-up son WITHOUT clothes. But animals don't.

That's what makes the difference.

Try to understand if you can.

It seems that embarrassment is a learned behaviour. Degrees of embarrassed about the human body vary from culture to culture.

 

[chinu]

It seems that embarrassment is a learned behaviour. Degrees of embarrassed about the human body vary from culture to culture.

That's true, yes.

 

[Rizdek]

I would be completely unsurprised if it were demonstrated that chimps assigned agency to natural phenomenon. Especially scary or painful events. But how would one ever demonstrate it.

Well...I'm assuming we're pretty much in conjecture land here anyways. But it seems that the earliest evidence of writing and art suggest some sort of 'more than just what's visible' or 'more than meets the eye' thinking.

"Around 30-35,000 years ago there was an explosion of symbolism in Paleolithic human culture around the world, primarily represented by cave art. This cave art is usually located in hard to access underground spaces that must have had significant meaning for the artists and those who would have experienced these strange images by torchlight; And strange they are. Whilst many of the images are naturalistic images of humans, mammals and birds, there is also extensive representation of therianthropic beings, that is part human, part animal shape-shifters. There are also many beings that seem to be distorted humans, perhaps better described as humanoid. These images suggest that the Paleolithic artists were attempting to tell stories and incorporate messages and meaning within the stories, which they deemed important. The fact that many of the beings represented in the cave art are of a supernatural quality is symptomatic of what we might call folklore."

Shamanic Explorations of Supernatural Realms: Cave Art - The Earliest Folklore

So...from that I might conclude that AS humans started to capture/write/draw their thoughts on cave walls ie started to share complex information via language or 'be-human,' they had thoughts that today we would think of as other worldly....as the quote says, 'of a supernatural quality.' IOW, I'd say theists existed at those earliest times even though it may have been simple beliefs that some things in the natural world had agency and they may have tried to figure ways to 'deal with' that agency...whether to appease, negotiate, laud or fear/love it. And...I just imagine that among those were some who said...or thought to themselves, "yeah, I don't think that volcano is making decisions whether to destroy us or not."

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well...I'm assuming we're pretty much in conjecture land here anyways. But it seems that the earliest evidence of writing and art suggest some sort of 'more than just what's visible' or 'more than meets the eye' thinking.

"Around 30-35,000 years ago there was an explosion of symbolism in Paleolithic human culture around the world, primarily represented by cave art. This cave art is usually located in hard to access underground spaces that must have had significant meaning for the artists and those who would have experienced these strange images by torchlight; And strange they are. Whilst many of the images are naturalistic images of humans, mammals and birds, there is also extensive representation of therianthropic beings, that is part human, part animal shape-shifters. There are also many beings that seem to be distorted humans, perhaps better described as humanoid. These images suggest that the Paleolithic artists were attempting to tell stories and incorporate messages and meaning within the stories, which they deemed important. The fact that many of the beings represented in the cave art are of a supernatural quality is symptomatic of what we might call folklore."

Shamanic Explorations of Supernatural Realms: Cave Art - The Earliest Folklore

So...from that I might conclude that AS humans started to capture/write/draw their thoughts on cave walls ie started to share complex information via language or 'be-human,' they had thoughts that today we would think of as other worldly....as the quote says, 'of a supernatural quality.' IOW, I'd say theists existed at those earliest times even though it may have been simple beliefs that some things in the natural world had agency and they may have tried to figure ways to 'deal with' that agency...whether to appease, negotiate, laud or fear/love it. And...I just imagine that among those were some who said...or thought to themselves, "yeah, I don't think that volcano is making decisions whether to destroy us or not."

Well, you will no doubt have @ChristineM stepping in here (being involved in such) but for me at least, the existence of such art doesn't necessarily indicate any supernatural agency, but might be more to do with information. Perhaps why they chose caves for their works - being better protected - and also perhaps as being more secret (knowledge kept from others). What that was is perhaps debatable, but I see it as being more a teaching issue - what animals to hunt and how to kill them - and also perhaps a reverence of those who have died. So not so much being supernatural as being a tribute to those who were appreciated and missed - just as much as we still do today.

But that is just an opinion.

 

[Bear Wild]

Yeah! I wanted to bring up the storms thing, but I couldn't remember who to attribute it to. Was thinking it might have been de Waal. Thanks for the jump start.

He talked about it in his books which have been influential to me. It has been long overdue for accepting the intelligence and emotional capacity of other animals.