Theistic evolution as part of a possible simulation with a non-obvious intelligent force

[Pogo]

Here's the wikipedia article:

They're Made Out of Meat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

it made it to Wikipedia, not bad.
Anyhow as a fan of Feynman as a math hater, I am curious as to your thoughts as to the significance of fractal maths.
send it via message if you don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

No that is the other Newtonian extreme. A Naturally deterministic universe is not "clock-work." The variations of cause and effect event outcomes are natural feature of our universe are predictable and not random, and are not clockwork rigid mechanically.

Problem here of vagueness,

NO, predictable by Chaos theory

DOES GOD PLAY DICE? INSIGHTS FROM THE FRACTAL GEOMETRY OF NATURE​

Paul H. Carr
First published: 02 December 2004

Abstract​

Abstract Albert Einstein and Huston Smith reflect the old metaphor that chaos and randomness are bad. Scientists recently have discovered that many phenomena, from the fluctuations of the stock market to variations in our weather, have the same underlying order. Natural beauty from plants to snowflakes is described by fractal geometry; tree branching from trunks to twigs has the same fractal scaling as our lungs, from trachea to bronchi. Algorithms for drawing fractals have both randomness and global determinism. Fractal statistics is like picking a card from a stacked deck rather than from one that is shuffled to be truly random. The polarity of randomness (or freedom) and law characterizes the self-creating natural world. Polarity is in consonance with Taoism and contemporary theologians such as Paul Tillich, Alfred North Whitehead, Gordon Kaufman, Philip Hefner, and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Joseph Ford's new metaphor is replacing the old: “God plays dice with the universe, but they're loaded dice.”

Like all patterns of outcomes of cause and effect events the timing and nature of one event may appear random, but the series of event outcomes follows a predictable frctal pattern in nature and dice.
. . . because the pattern over time of the the throw of dice can be predicably modeled and described by fractal Geometry.

Paul H. Carr

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/zygo.12750

Naturalism—as Religion, within Religions,without Religion

with Willem B. Drees, “Naturalism and Religion: Hunting Two Snarks?”; Ursula W.Goodenough and Jeremy E. Sherman, “The Emergence of Selves and Purpose”; Matthew D. MacKenzie, “Spiritual Animals: Sense-Making, Self-Transcendence, and Liberal Naturalism”; Curtis M. Craig, “The Potential Contribution of Awe and NatureAppreciation to Positive Moral Values”; Mark E. Hoelter, “Mysterium Tremendum in aNew Key”; Charles W. Fowler, “The Convergence of Science and Religion”; ToddMacalister, “Naturalistic Religious Practices: What Naturalists Have Been Discussing andDoing”; Paul H. Carr, “Theologies Completing Naturalism’s Limitations”; James Sharp,“Theistic Evolution in Three Traditions”; Alessandro Mantini, “Religious Naturalism and Creation: A Cosmological and Theological Reading on the Origin/Beginning of the Universe”; and Willem B. Drees, “When to Be What? Why Science-Inspired Naturalism Need Not Imply Religious Naturalism."

”THEOLOGIES COMPLETING NATURALISM’S LIMITATIONS"

by Paul H. Carr

Abstract.

Scientific Naturalism has no eternal life and purpose. Tillich’s existential and Whitehead’s process theologies overcome the limitations of scientific “naturalism without religion.” Tillich, Wild-man, Whitehead, and Bracken update the Bible’s promise of eternal life as well as the meaning and goal of history. Paul Tillich’s metaphor of religion as the Dimension of Depth is similar to Ursula Goode-nough’s Sacred Depths of Nature. She considers Tillich to be a religious naturalist. For Whitehead, the goal of the Universe is the production of beauty. “The thirst for beauty that permeates our lives is an opening to transcendence,” according to theologian Philip Hefner.

Keywords: beauty; Ursula Goodenough; Philip Hefner; naturalism; Paul Tillich; process theology; religious naturalism; Alfred North Whitehead

Paul H. Carr, B.S., M.S., MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA; Ph.D., Brandeis University, Waltham, Massachusetts, USA; IEEE Life Fellow; led a branch of the AF Research Lab, Ohio, USA; and authored Beauty in Science and Spirit (2006); e-mail:[email protected].[Zygon, vol. 56, no. 4 (December 2021)] www.wileyonlinelibrary.com/journal/zygon© 2021 by the Joint Publication Board of Zygon ISSN 0591-2385 10391040 Zygon

Introduction

As a Methodist minister’s son, the beauty of religious music and literature shapes my worldviews. Naturalistic science has deepened my appreciation of the physical world’s beautiful order and enabled me to make verifiable predictions. Because scientific naturalism does not satisfy my yearning forthe meaning and purpose of life and death, I have turned to theologians like Tillich and Whitehead, who interpret God and the Bible to complete the limitations of “naturalism without religion.” Scientific Naturalism believes in natural laws and causes, but rejects supernatural explanations and angelic beings. Scientific naturalism is not enough for me because of such limitations as:

(1) Scientific Naturalism has no religious promise of the “life after death” of our brain’s neurons, whose electrical excitations gives a naturalistic explanation of the emergence of human consciousness.

(2) Scientific Naturalism has no purpose or goal other than the repro-duction of the species. Biologists like Richard Dawkins (2015) believe that evolution is without design. It is blind meaningless chance.

Religions believe that death is more than the abyss of nothingness. When a burial site contains objects that the deceased might use in an afterlife, anthropologists identify it as a human grave. Belief in some form of afterlife characterizes us as humans. The Egyptian civilization amplified this yearning for eternal life by constructing massive pyramids for deceased Pharaohs, whose bodies were preserved as mummies. I believe in resurrection. A Hebrew Bible belief was that resurrection would occur on the last day. On Easter Sunday, I celebrate Jesus resurrection from his death on the cross.

snip--------

 

[Pogo]

Paul H. Carr

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/zygo.12750

Naturalism—as Religion, within Religions,without Religion

with Willem B. Drees, “Naturalism and Religion: Hunting Two Snarks?”; Ursula W.Goodenough and Jeremy E. Sherman, “The Emergence of Selves and Purpose”; Matthew D. MacKenzie, “Spiritual Animals: Sense-Making, Self-Transcendence, and Liberal Naturalism”; Curtis M. Craig, “The Potential Contribution of Awe and NatureAppreciation to Positive Moral Values”; Mark E. Hoelter, “Mysterium Tremendum in aNew Key”; Charles W. Fowler, “The Convergence of Science and Religion”; ToddMacalister, “Naturalistic Religious Practices: What Naturalists Have Been Discussing andDoing”; Paul H. Carr, “Theologies Completing Naturalism’s Limitations”; James Sharp,“Theistic Evolution in Three Traditions”; Alessandro Mantini, “Religious Naturalism and Creation: A Cosmological and Theological Reading on the Origin/Beginning of the Universe”; and Willem B. Drees, “When to Be What? Why Science-Inspired Naturalism Need Not Imply Religious Naturalism."

”THEOLOGIES COMPLETING NATURALISM’S LIMITATIONS"

by Paul H. Carr

Abstract.

Scientific Naturalism has no eternal life and purpose. Tillich’s existential and Whitehead’s process theologies overcome the limitations of scientific “naturalism without religion.” Tillich, Wild-man, Whitehead, and Bracken update the Bible’s promise of eternal life as well as the meaning and goal of history. Paul Tillich’s metaphor of religion as the Dimension of Depth is similar to Ursula Goode-nough’s Sacred Depths of Nature. She considers Tillich to be a religious naturalist. For Whitehead, the goal of the Universe is the production of beauty. “The thirst for beauty that permeates our lives is an opening to transcendence,” according to theologian Philip Hefner.

Keywords: beauty; Ursula Goodenough; Philip Hefner; naturalism; Paul Tillich; process theology; religious naturalism; Alfred North Whitehead

Paul H. Carr, B.S., M.S., MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA; Ph.D., Brandeis University, Waltham, Massachusetts, USA; IEEE Life Fellow; led a branch of the AF Research Lab, Ohio, USA; and authored Beauty in Science and Spirit (2006); e-mail:[email protected].[Zygon, vol. 56, no. 4 (December 2021)] www.wileyonlinelibrary.com/journal/zygon© 2021 by the Joint Publication Board of Zygon ISSN 0591-2385 10391040 Zygon

Introduction

As a Methodist minister’s son, the beauty of religious music and literature shapes my worldviews. Naturalistic science has deepened my appreciation of the physical world’s beautiful order and enabled me to make verifiable predictions. Because scientific naturalism does not satisfy my yearning forthe meaning and purpose of life and death, I have turned to theologians like Tillich and Whitehead, who interpret God and the Bible to complete the limitations of “naturalism without religion.” Scientific Naturalism believes in natural laws and causes, but rejects supernatural explanations and angelic beings. Scientific naturalism is not enough for me because of such limitations as:

(1) Scientific Naturalism has no religious promise of the “life after death” of our brain’s neurons, whose electrical excitations gives a naturalistic explanation of the emergence of human consciousness.

(2) Scientific Naturalism has no purpose or goal other than the repro-duction of the species. Biologists like Richard Dawkins (2015) believe that evolution is without design. It is blind meaningless chance.

Religions believe that death is more than the abyss of nothingness. When a burial site contains objects that the deceased might use in an afterlife, anthropologists identify it as a human grave. Belief in some form of afterlife characterizes us as humans. The Egyptian civilization amplified this yearning for eternal life by constructing massive pyramids for deceased Pharaohs, whose bodies were preserved as mummies. I believe in resurrection. A Hebrew Bible belief was that resurrection would occur on the last day. On Easter Sunday, I celebrate Jesus resurrection from his death on the cross.

snip--------

And a Nautilus shell can be described as a golden rule or a logarithmic progression. And an inverse square law can be described as a revelation or as a simple result of area of a sphere. And fractals are recursive but given limited opportunities for growth, patterns can be expected.
I still don't see how this is any more than a desire for something else to make him feel comfortable.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

And a Nautilus shell can be described as a golden rule or a logarithmic progression. And an inverse square law can be described as a revelation or as a simple result of area of a sphere. And fractals are recursive but given limited opportunities for growth, patterns can be expected.
I still don't see how this is any more than a desire for something else to make him feel comfortable.

Oh, I don't know.

What do you think, @shunyadragon ?

You seem to be quite familiar with this guy's theology, whereas I've never heard of him, before.

What do you do on Easter Sunday?

 

[excreationist]

And a Nautilus shell can be described as a golden rule or a logarithmic progression.

It doesn't fit the golden spiral very well:

 

[Pogo]

It doesn't fit the golden spiral very well:
View attachment 92280

Ok, derive a better equation, why doesn't it fit?

It doesn't fit the golden spiral very well:
View attachment 92280

 

[excreationist]

Ok, derive a better equation, why doesn't it fit?

My strength is in I.T. related things (like simulations), not maths.
see:

Deriving the Nautilus shell spiral equation

Suppose I need to estimate the cross section of a Nautilus shell, which is famously approximated by a logarithmic spiral, $r=ae^{b\theta}$. The cross-section of this spiral could be found by integ...

math.stackexchange.com

I'm not sure an exact equation can be found - but there are at least approximations.
The problem with the golden spiral is that it gets smaller a lot more rapidly than the nautilus shell does.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

My strength is in I.T. related things (like simulations), not maths.
see:

Deriving the Nautilus shell spiral equation

Suppose I need to estimate the cross section of a Nautilus shell, which is famously approximated by a logarithmic spiral, $r=ae^{b\theta}$. The cross-section of this spiral could be found by integ...

math.stackexchange.com

I'm not sure an exact equation can be found - but there are at least approximations.
The problem with the golden spiral is that it gets smaller a lot more rapidly than the nautilus shell does.

I've heard that Computer Scientists are descended from Mathematicians, at least according to Scott Aaronson.

The odds that P=NP is 3% | Scott Aaronson and Lex Fridman​

 

[excreationist]

I've heard that Computer Scientists are descended from Mathematicians, at least according to Scott Aaronson.

The odds that P=NP is 3% | Scott Aaronson and Lex Fridman​

Well I did start university doing an Applied Maths and Statistics degree because a teacher suggested it and I was good at high school maths. Then I changed to Maths and Supercomputing. I didn't study in the second(?) year maths subjects and ended up failing them all. I wasn't used to having to study maths much. I did a logic subject and discrete mathematics also covered logic a bit.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Well I did start university doing an Applied Maths and Statistics degree because a teacher suggested it and I was good at high school maths. Then I changed to Maths and Supercomputing. I didn't study in the second(?) year maths subjects and ended up failing them all. I wasn't used to having to study maths much. I did a logic subject and discrete mathematics also covered logic a bit.

I want one of these.

A demo of Charles Babbage's Difference Engine​

 

[Pogo]

I want one of these.

A demo of Charles Babbage's Difference Engine​

I want my original HP 32 that my girlfriends parents bought for me cause they thought I might not be a bad guy even if my mother was German and she was Jewish.

 

[Pogo]

My strength is in I.T. related things (like simulations), not maths.
see:

Deriving the Nautilus shell spiral equation

Suppose I need to estimate the cross section of a Nautilus shell, which is famously approximated by a logarithmic spiral, $r=ae^{b\theta}$. The cross-section of this spiral could be found by integ...

math.stackexchange.com

I'm not sure an exact equation can be found - but there are at least approximations.
The problem with the golden spiral is that it gets smaller a lot more rapidly than the nautilus shell does.

Ok, you are an Engineer, a path I flunked out of, be happy and you can do well, but take some time before you agree with new ideas.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Ok, you are an Engineer, a path I flunked out of, be happy and you can do well, but take some time before you agree with new ideas.

“Engineers need a mention here, for turning tension and stress into a professional career.”

NERDS: A Manifesto | A Capella Science​

 

[Pogo]

“Engineers need a mention here, for turning tension and stress into a professional career.”

NERDS: A Manifesto | A Capella Science​

Yes, for not enjoying working on that which was't in the book they learned.
Keep them in their comfort zone and they are happy.

 

[excreationist]

Ok, you are an Engineer, a path I flunked out of, be happy and you can do well,

Failure Rates in Engineering Service Courses | Journal of STEM Education: Innovations and Research

jstem.org

"...40% of students in engineering do not make it through the first year, and of those who make it, 30% fail in many of the fundamental engineering courses..."

When I was in a jobs fair in high school I noticed engineering once or twice. Then I thought to myself that maybe it would be harder to find a job - I can't remember the reasoning behind that. Though eventually I learnt logic better through things like a subject in logic. Engineering maths, like fluid dynamics, seems to be quite difficult though I haven't really tried to understand it. As far as software engineering goes I'm not so good at abstract planning and theory but I'm pretty good at programming and making things organised.

but take some time before you agree with new ideas.

Sometimes I agree with new ideas quickly - sometimes slowly.... maybe related to what my current related beliefs are or who is involved. I tend to think I know better than those new ideas... or give them a chance first...

 

[shunyadragon]

I want one of these.

A demo of Charles Babbage's Difference Engine​

You collect antique computers? This is not remotely relevant to computers today.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

You collect antique computers?

If I can see further than the ancients, it is only because I stand on the shoulders of Giants.

I want a steam powered pc.

Charles Babbage's Analytical Engine​

 

[shunyadragon]

Paul H. Carr

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/zygo.12750

Naturalism—as Religion, within Religions,without Religion

with Willem B. Drees, “Naturalism and Religion: Hunting Two Snarks?”; Ursula W.Goodenough and Jeremy E. Sherman, “The Emergence of Selves and Purpose”; Matthew D. MacKenzie, “Spiritual Animals: Sense-Making, Self-Transcendence, and Liberal Naturalism”; Curtis M. Craig, “The Potential Contribution of Awe and NatureAppreciation to Positive Moral Values”; Mark E. Hoelter, “Mysterium Tremendum in aNew Key”; Charles W. Fowler, “The Convergence of Science and Religion”; ToddMacalister, “Naturalistic Religious Practices: What Naturalists Have Been Discussing andDoing”; Paul H. Carr, “Theologies Completing Naturalism’s Limitations”; James Sharp,“Theistic Evolution in Three Traditions”; Alessandro Mantini, “Religious Naturalism and Creation: A Cosmological and Theological Reading on the Origin/Beginning of the Universe”; and Willem B. Drees, “When to Be What? Why Science-Inspired Naturalism Need Not Imply Religious Naturalism."

”THEOLOGIES COMPLETING NATURALISM’S LIMITATIONS"

by Paul H. Carr

Abstract.

Scientific Naturalism has no eternal life and purpose. Tillich’s existential and Whitehead’s process theologies overcome the limitations of scientific “naturalism without religion.” Tillich, Wild-man, Whitehead, and Bracken update the Bible’s promise of eternal life as well as the meaning and goal of history. Paul Tillich’s metaphor of religion as the Dimension of Depth is similar to Ursula Goode-nough’s Sacred Depths of Nature. She considers Tillich to be a religious naturalist. For Whitehead, the goal of the Universe is the production of beauty. “The thirst for beauty that permeates our lives is an opening to transcendence,” according to theologian Philip Hefner.

Keywords: beauty; Ursula Goodenough; Philip Hefner; naturalism; Paul Tillich; process theology; religious naturalism; Alfred North Whitehead

Paul H. Carr, B.S., M.S., MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA; Ph.D., Brandeis University, Waltham, Massachusetts, USA; IEEE Life Fellow; led a branch of the AF Research Lab, Ohio, USA; and authored Beauty in Science and Spirit (2006); e-mail:[email protected].[Zygon, vol. 56, no. 4 (December 2021)] www.wileyonlinelibrary.com/journal/zygon© 2021 by the Joint Publication Board of Zygon ISSN 0591-2385 10391040 Zygon

Introduction

As a Methodist minister’s son, the beauty of religious music and literature shapes my worldviews. Naturalistic science has deepened my appreciation of the physical world’s beautiful order and enabled me to make verifiable predictions. Because scientific naturalism does not satisfy my yearning forthe meaning and purpose of life and death, I have turned to theologians like Tillich and Whitehead, who interpret God and the Bible to complete the limitations of “naturalism without religion.” Scientific Naturalism believes in natural laws and causes, but rejects supernatural explanations and angelic beings. Scientific naturalism is not enough for me because of such limitations as:

(1) Scientific Naturalism has no religious promise of the “life after death” of our brain’s neurons, whose electrical excitations gives a naturalistic explanation of the emergence of human consciousness.

(2) Scientific Naturalism has no purpose or goal other than the repro-duction of the species. Biologists like Richard Dawkins (2015) believe that evolution is without design. It is blind meaningless chance.

Religions believe that death is more than the abyss of nothingness. When a burial site contains objects that the deceased might use in an afterlife, anthropologists identify it as a human grave. Belief in some form of afterlife characterizes us as humans. The Egyptian civilization amplified this yearning for eternal life by constructing massive pyramids for deceased Pharaohs, whose bodies were preserved as mummies. I believe in resurrection. A Hebrew Bible belief was that resurrection would occur on the last day. On Easter Sunday, I celebrate Jesus resurrection from his death on the cross.

snip--------

Interesting post, but did not address the issues of the discussion responded to here"

No that is the other Newtonian extreme. A Naturally deterministic universe is not "clock-work." The variations of cause and effect event outcomes are natural feature of our universe are predictable and not random, and are not clockwork rigid mechanically.

 

[Banach-Tarski Paradox]

Interesting post, but did not address the issues of the discussion responded to here"

No that is the other Newtonian extreme. A Naturally deterministic universe is not "clock-work." The variations of cause and effect event outcomes are natural feature of our universe are predictable and not random, and are not clockwork rigid mechanically.

Well, Paul H. Carr has an interesting theology.

Thank you for mentioning him.

You never answered my question about Easter Mass, by the way.

How much do you know about Semana Santa (Holy Week).

What do historiographers and anthropologists and UNESCO have to say about it?

Them and that Paul H.Carr dude.

Have I mentioned what an interesting character he seems to be?

 

[shunyadragon]

1974 and earlier? Note I have a Bachelor of Information Technology and a Bachelor of Software Engineering - what is your background? Apparently it takes about 10,000 hours to master a topic.

Do you mean Python? (if you even have any idea what that is)

There's no point - whatever "reference" I'd give you'd be unhappy with it. I'd rather do what normal people do and just use straight forward arguments.

I would be happy with any reasonable references you can provide. So far you have provided nothing in relation to the problem of Natural Determinism, computer programing as it is understood in science and math today. Much of what you posted is not relevant. Some of the Youtube videos are downright ridiculous.
I gave a good reference and no response.

No, you are considering computers 50 years old or more. This post and your previous post is false based on an intentional ignorance of contemporary computer science advance, Modern programing is no longer "linear"and Newtonian 100% deterministic, which after the the advances using fractal math and chaos models like AI programing, which can respond intelligently in human interactions You need to go beyond your assertions and provide references to support your argument. like the following.