Theists: How do you determine that God is not a malevolent being?

[FearGod]

A malevolent God would be well able to keep nature stable.

If God is malevolent then you have to suffer all the day, he may turn you a blind or having
pains ..etc, how nature is stabilized? why you don't have earthquake in your place every 1 hour,
does the planet earth manage its own affairs?

 

[FearGod]

Why would we see them?

How thing is being controlled? can you drive a car safely while can't manage to control it?
believing that things have been controlled by its own self and just happened to be the case
is a guess and it doesn't make any sense.

 

[Jumi]

How thing is being controlled?

It doesn't seem to be controlled.

can you drive a car safely while can't manage to control it?

Who says the earth is moving safely when there are proofs of huge impacts left on the planet's surface just like the moons? The Vredefort crater is 300km wide.

Earth Impact Database

believing that things have been controlled by its own self and just happened to be the case
is a guess and it doesn't make any sense.

They don't make sense to you and metaphors can't prove anything. They just explain how you believe things happen.

If a stone falls off a cliff, who is controlling it? It doesn't make sense to me to say someone is controlling things that happen by themselves.

 

[FearGod]

It doesn't seem to be controlled.

It means chaos, but the solar system isn't chaos.

Who says the earth is moving safely when there are proofs of huge impacts left on the planet's surface just like the moons? The Vredefort crater is 300km wide.

Earth Impact Database

That was history, what about today?

They don't make sense to you and metaphors can't prove anything. They just explain how you believe things happen.

If a stone falls off a cliff, who is controlling it? It doesn't make sense to me to say someone is controlling things that happen by themselves.

But if that stone flied and took one path and kept rotating then you have to think how that happened.

 

[Profound Realization]

Playing a contrarian:-
It would be possible for a skeptic to argue that the Hindu God's advice to sacrifice material possessions and worldly pleasures for a life of frugality would be something a malevolent being may do to rob people of the happiness available here and now in pursuit of illusory promises of heavens and moksha. Further an knowing being would know how with time, the caste system would devolve in a method for oppressing people of lower social status and only a malevolent being would knowingly institute such a system.

And when we look at the present here and now through a wholesome mind if one has such.... we can see that social status, a powerful system of control has been instituted and continues to evolve subtly under the disguise of "good" by those with power and control.
I would be confident in that advice because of experience. The more material possessions I had, the less content I was. The less material possessions that I now have, the more content that I am. The more material possessions that I had, the more I fit into the malevolent system. Happiness is always available, without many material things... contrary to popular belief. I would be confident that a malevolent being would want people to think that they can only be happy with a lot of material things and worldly pleasures. The system also does a decent job of portraying this. You're only worthy if you have a name, a degree, a reputation, your awesomeness is based on how successful one is in terms of material/monetary value. The system that has the spell over the minds of the masses in its malevolence would want humans to idolize human beings of status. This leads to jealousy, envy, lack of contentment, greed, etc. And the system ties in subtly to human nature... the desire to want to feel like they belong, fit in, demands to be respected. If the system is questioned, one is character assassinated as being unintelligent, crazy, uneducated, delusional.... such a potent power it is over the minds of the masses. Only a malevolent being would desire such strife and division and poor fruit. So, in my mind... only malevolence would want someone else to belittle and condescend on others and use status as a subtle tool. Therefore, I would also be confident that a maleovelant being would desire people to think that this is the only life, that you're nothing more than a coincidental accident, so live it up.... divulge in all worldly pleasures, build up material riches.

Any promises of nothing after death and promises of something after death would fit into the same criteria as illusory, using intellect.

 

[Profound Realization]

A malevolent being would want us to enjoy some good so that sudden disasters are all the more devastating and shocking. Also, beings need to exist for them to suffer. So a malevolent being needs to create a universe where sentient beings can reproduce so that he gets a steady stream of beings on whom he can employ his malevolent designs.

And if a sentient being has control over their mind, control over fear and suffering by being content in all things.... how could suffering have its control?

For me, if a sudden disaster occurred... whether naturally or sentient-being created killing my family but leaving me alive and paralyzed, should I be devastated, broken, and miserable, should I think that death is an evil event? I would have used to be devasted, broken, miserable if that occurred in times past. If it occurred in times present for me, I would not be devasted, broken, miserable.

If my home and all possessions were destroyed, I'd laugh. Why would I allow suffering to consume me? I'd be very fortunate and thankful for the combined time I had with my family.

 

[Maponos]

Well, one should read the mythology surrounding such deities. Spiritual beings that are often part of a pantheon are rarely ever outwardly malevolent (at least in the northern hemisphere).

 

[MonkeyFire]

Through Faith you know all things.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It means chaos, but the solar system isn't chaos.

Yes it is. Planets smashing into one another, asteroids and comets smashing into planets. Stars exploding, black holes... There's tons of chaos in space!

But if that stone flied and took one path and kept rotating then you have to think how that happened.

That's pure fantasy, and not really worth consideration.

 

[FearGod]

Yes it is. Planets smashing into one another, asteroids and comets smashing into planets. Stars exploding, black holes... There's tons of chaos in space!

That's how it should be, continues destructions

That's pure fantasy, and not really worth consideration.

And what makes the earth and other planets to rotate around the sun, how it started?

 

[sayak83]

Ah, the million dollar question: why does God allow suffering?

Since my beliefs are based on the bible I’ll give you the long-story-short version, based on the bible.

First of all, it is very important to understand that even though at the moment God is not stopping bad things from happening, he’s not the cause of them either. In Job 34:10 we read “So listen to me, you men of understanding: It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, For the Almighty to do wrong!” and James 1:13 states “When under trial, let no one say: ‘I am being tried by God.’ For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”
Whatever bad things people go through, God didn’t cause them. He does however let them happen, and there’s a reason for that.

One common misconception needs to be cleared up first. Many people think of God as the ruler of this world, the one who is in direct control of everything. This is what the bible says about who rules the world in 1 John 5:19 “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” Jesus identified this wicked one as Satan, a rebellious angel that is first mentioned as tempting Eve in the account of Genesis when he suggested that humans didn’t need God’s guidance.

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve had everything they needed in the Garden of Eden, but one tree was out of bounds for them—“the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.” By not eating from this tree, Adam and Eve would demonstrate their full trust in their Father, recognizing that he had the right to decide what was good and bad for his children (Genesis 2: 16,17).

Satan, lead by his selfish desire of being worshiped, told Eve that if she ate the forbidden fruit, she would not die, contradicting God, thus portraying Him as a liar. Satan accused God of being an unfit Ruler and implied that he, Satan, could do a better job.

Unfortunately Adam and Eve took Satan’s side and disobeyed God’s orders. Because of that they lost their protection from God and became imperfect. That imperfection was passed on to their descendants - the entire humankind.

The question raised by Satan was that he was a better ruler than God, so God decided to give him the opportunity to prove his point by letting him rule for a period of time. Since God knew that humans would not be able to have true freedom and happiness under the influence of Satan, He gave it a deadline. The ending date was not given to humans but we have God’s promise that he will end this system and bring in a new government, with the peace and justice that He had planned since the beginning. In Revelation 21: 4 we have one of the best known scriptures in the bible: “And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

It is hard to have to wait for better times but those of us who trust in God know that His promises never fail. We need to have patience and endure the difficulties that sometimes happen in our lives.

Thanks for your reply. However, the question here is not whether one can have a theology where a good God allows suffering for some future greater good. The question here is whether it is possible that God is malevolent all along and is allowing some good in order to create some future greater evil.. and how a theist ascertains that this is not the case. For example is it not possible to construct a malevolent God theology that is consistent with all the events of the Bible? If so, what makes a good Biblical God hypothesis superior to an evil Biblical God hypothesis?

 

[sayak83]

You're barking up the wrong tree with that one, as I don't believe in one god. Our solar system is what it is (and our universe, but that's a bigger scale,) and there are laws laid down for how this reality must operate. Fire will burn, cold will freeze. The earth goes through cycles as we revolve around the sun, and this demands a changing environment in relation to Her heat. The sea behaves as She does, generating an oceanic climate, and this clashes with the old (often violently) to bring about change for the new. The Earth moves with life, constantly changing, and brings about quakes and heat from within. This, if anything, is what is taught in the tale of the Ragnarök; that all must die and change, often violently, to bring about the new world of tomorrow.

As for droughts and floods, are those natural disasters that can be attributed to climate, or are they disasters in that we stubbornly try to live in deserts and lowlands? New Orleans was a disaster with Katrina because the city is literally underneath the sea level by six feet; is that fault of the gods, or our own obstinacy?

So, in paganism, Gods are more limited beings, constrained by some laws of reality. Correct? The Ragnarok cycle is necessarily true and gods don't have the power to create realities outside of its parameters. Correct?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

And what makes the earth and other planets to rotate around the sun, how it started?

Gravity.

 

[sayak83]

I'm not sure how the argument of a grand deceiver is supposed to go...
If it is a deception, then by definition there must be some way in which it does not match reality.
If the deception is indistinguishable from reality in every way, then how can it be a deception?

That doesn't mean God is good. It merely points out that all deception is fallible.
It could be interesting to explore how people know their particular god is not a deception, because in theory any deception is fallible in some way.



This seems neither here nor there. He can't be entirely malevolent is He allows some good nor entirely benevolent if He allow some evil. I could just as easily take natural disasters as indication that a benevolent God needs some evil for His good to be known, which makes the perceptions of good and evil subjective opinions instead of objective facts. If good and evil are entirely subjective, then God's benevolence or malevolence is not an objective reality.

One can alter the question to saying how can a theist ensure that the God she worships has the intention of reducing or minimizing suffering and enhancing well being of all sentient creations rather than the opposite.

 

[sayak83]

If God is malevolent then you have to suffer all the day, he may turn you a blind or having
pains ..etc, how nature is stabilized? why you don't have earthquake in your place every 1 hour,
does the planet earth manage its own affairs?

Not so. A pauper suffers less than a rich man who have become a pauper. Loss is the greatest form of suffering, and for us to experience loss (of wealth, of health, of hope, of security, of loved ones) we have to have these things in sufficient amounts first. The transition of life from healthful young to sick old age seems geared to maximize the sense of loss and is something that a malevolent God is likely to do.

The same way a benevolent God keeps nature stable. Same powers, opposite intentions and morality.

 

[Lyndon]

this whole malevolent God thing sounds like the ultimate conspiracy theory!!

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So, in paganism, Gods are more limited beings, constrained by some laws of reality. Correct?

Yes, the gods (as seen by Pagans) are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent beings.

The Ragnarok cycle is necessarily true

Yes and no. It's not true in that it will literally happen, but it teaches the less to let die what needs to die, so that a new world can grow from the ashes.

gods don't have the power to create realities outside of its parameters. Correct?

Outside of the particular god's parameters? If that's what you meant, then yes, I think. For example, one wouldn't really look to Thor to nourish their crops; he's better for defense of the crops against jotnar, or destructive elemental forces. By simply sharing space on this physical plane, Thor is the thunderstorm as much as he creates it. He would not come to our reality as the ocean or the mountains. He is The Thunderer.

In Asgard, his abode, he would be as you or I in our reality; normal (though quite exceptional in his own right.) In other worlds like Jotunheimr, he is less-than-mighty, and is out done by even children among the giants.

 

[Grandliseur]

In fact how do you no that God himself is not a malevolent being?

I do not intent to devote a lot of time on this, but there are many fictional stories by good authors in which we have multiple kinds of gods, very entertaining. R. A. Salvatore writes some of these, good reading.

The dark elves of his story line have an evil god. It is interesting to read about the kind of society that he has created based on worship of this deity.
The difference between a malevolent deity and benevolent are readily discerned.

Assuredly, the Christian God is benevolent.
--
Edit:
The Viking gods had a dark streak in their makeup. It seems that only the ones dying on the battlefield were permitted in Valhalla. As could be seen from the behavior of the Vikings, this affected their fierceness severely, kind of the deity in Mr. Salvatore's books.

Thus, it seems unavoidable for a people's deity not to affect the personality of the society that worships this deity.

 

[Mister Silver]

Assuredly, the Christian God is benevolent.

I've read the bible, and I assuredly disagree.

The thing about christians is that they tend to view their god through rose colored glasses; he can do no wrong.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Assuredly, the Christian God is benevolent.

Except for pretty much anything in the Old Testament.