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Theists, please tell me why you believe murder is wrong.

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm interested in people's justifications for their moral positions, specifically how theists come to believe that murder is wrong. So far we have a few polytheists who've shared their views. I'm hoping some Christian mono-theists will join the conversation.

I'm Jewish. Please see my answer above in post #18. The general principle taught in Judaism and is the basis for all law is Divine Providence, "hashgacha pratis". So, that is why murder is wrong. Because it violates Divine Providence, God has provided that person a set number of days, weeks, months, moments...

Morality would be living in harmony with God's will. Or in terms of Hashgacha Pratis, recognizing what God has provided for myself and others and respecting that.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Something is "wrong" because some human said so. All else is commentary.

When a critical mass of humans in a given geographic area says so, they limit their behaviors as a collective accordingly. "Wrongness" is typically determined based on the relationship a human has to whatever that other thing is. The more meaningful the relationship, the more transgressions are perceived as "wrong." In this, there's a proper accounting for disparities in harms done to various types of persons, both human and non-human. Anything that is othered is routinely harmed - even murdered - without condemnation. See: so-called "pest exterminators" existing.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there are certainly Christians (since that's the theists we're probably actually talking about) who are willing to make statements where the subtext is 'without god you have no morals,' such as the infamous interview where someone tweeted Ricky Gervais "If you don't believe in God, why don't you just go out and rape and murder as much as you want?"

But I think most, when confronted with the implication of 'does that mean your belief in God is the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering?' They will answer in the negative. Which is good.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Is the use of "murder" here different than "killing" because murder typically refers to more than just killing and gets to motive among other things?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Apparently the only thing withholding some religious people from running amok is fear of divine punishment. They assume their own moral poverty is universal.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I would like you to elaborate. :)

Oh boy, it's super complicated. Be ready for a long read.

So, the first question is, how do I know that I am supposed to eat? God provided me with hunger. God provided me with relief after I eat. God provided me with gratitude for recieving food. All of those thing justify consumption. God provided hunger.

Next step is to figure out what God provided for me to eat. I'm going to be looking for things which are, for lack of better words, "low hanging fruit". This is easy to imagine in terms of plants. An apple hanging from a low branch among many apples, so many that if I take one no one will miss it, and the tree is actively blooming. God certainly has provided this for food. In Judaism all plants are perfectly kosher ( proper ) for food. ( assuming it wasn't a branch that was grafted, which would be violating God's will / assuming that the plant was not cross-bred which violates God's will )

But, if I imagine myself as a primitve human, sooner or later, I'm going to see another animal ( similar to myself, maybe ) eating another animal. From this, I might consider, "Did God provide animals for me to eat as well?" The same mental question-answer will occur with insects too. "Did God provide those for me?"

So, if I were looking for signs of whether or not these moving things ( like me ) are provided, intended for me, I might consider.. first of all, is it a dangerous for me? Does it have sharp teeth and claws? Is it a natural predator. ( Those are prohibited ). Does it burrow into the ground? Maybe that means God is hiding it from me ( rabbit is prohibited, moles, etc.. ). The same logic is applied to all insects, worms, etc... those things burrow and hide themself from me. The same logic is applied to shellfish. God put them under the sea, made them look like rocks, and I have to work my little kosher rear end to get the good stuff out from it? Nope, those are out too.

So that leaves herding animals. Blunt teeth, hooves. Eats grass. Non-predators, not dangerous. They like to live where I might like to live. Near water sources in open spaces, etc... but this still doesn't tell me that they are provided for me to eat. But ... there's signs that they are being provided for some purpose other than just, I don't know, being there.

If I go back to the "low hanging fruit" idea and apply it to herding animals, something is going on there. The animals are kind of like low hanging fruit. The key aspect is the number, and that they are reproducing actively and have developed into a herd kind of like a bunch of grapes. This tells me that God is providing them for some purpose that maybe isn't being actualized, for lack of a better word. So I wonder what that purpose is.

If we start to analyze the signs that are described in the Torah for a kosher animal, there's something unique about them which seperates them from the others. But on first glance, these differences serve no real purpose for their surviving or thriving. ( Perhaps they do/did have a purpose, but as a primitive person, I wouldn't know that, I don't know anything about evolution or science ). These seemingly uneeded differences are confirming in my mind that these animals have a unique but hidden purpose for which they have been provided by God.

Something to consider.

In the story, in the beginning, only plants were granted as food, but all of humanity was instructed to, sheppard, for lack of a better word, the natural world. And, in th story of Cain and Abel, Abel brought the best of the flock. But they were not permitted to eat the animals yet. And God accepted Abel's offering, but declined Cains. According to the story, somehow, Abel figured out that animals could be offered and God accepted it, but didn't receive any... carnal reward for it.

So, I'm a primitive person, and I notice, that certain types of animals, respect me, and permit me to approach them, and are gentle, and might even follow me around if I carry a big sheppard's stick. And some animals, like horses for example, defintely don't do those things. Something about that lamb is telling me, "I want to do what you command". And when I care for them, and sheppard them they produce many offspring. Maybe those ofspring, the perfect ones, have a higher purpose. ( Kosher animals are selcted based on these criteria )

And it's feet are split, telling me it wants to be lifted up. And it chews its cud, it has multiple divided stomach cavities, telling me it refines the world, and it divides, and seperates which is reflecting a primitve version of consecration, selecting something for a higher purpose. I'm starting to feel confident that this little beast was provided, brought down, for the specific purpose of being lifted back up.

So, I build an altar and I discover that there is a painless way to slaughter it. Perhaps with obsidian (arguably the keenest edge, even by today's standards, just scattered all over the place if a peson knows where to look ) or some other thing which again I discover has been provided by God for this purpose. Now I'm feeling like all sources are pointing towards, it's OK to kill this little beast. I have been provided the tools, the knowledge, the animal seems to have been designed for this specific purpose, it's like low hanging fruit. So I kill it offer it and I eat it and see what happens.

The same sort of logic is applied to derive which parts of the animal belong on the fire, it's rather "magical" what happens when fat is placed on a fire, when I kill it, the blood does not seem to be provided for me. But this beast has long powerful legs, but it never seems to run away. Maybe that part is for me? So now I've decided which parts of the animal have been provided by God for me. And the aroma. Oh my goodness. That's magical. The smoke!!!! Wow! I notice dead things and rotten things don't smell right. But this is glorious, for lack of a better word. I'm feeling really really good that God has set the table, so to speak, for all this to occur.

Meat in the primitve diet maybe helped brain development? I'm not sure, I think diversity of food sources helped brain development at the least. Meat can be preserved using primitive technology. Killing animals helps sustain me through the winter when plants are not blooming. If my brain is developing, and I am develping more abstract thoughts, and this is correlating to a deeper appreciation of the natural world, and simultaneously, I'm starting to make abstract realizations about an underying truth and cooperative realtionship that exists among all things. And this is leading to a god-concept, which is telling me, **all of this has been provided for me. All of it has been provided to approach God, to understand God, to have a relationship with something far bigger than anything I can ever know.**

But part of that includes ID'ing certain animals are being provided for a specific hidden purpose. Relaizing that the obsidian wasn't just randomly provided in seemingly unlimited quantity. Have you ever seen an obsidian flow? It's like another planet. And there is so much razor sharp obsidian, it's other-worldly. All of those primitve knives, were delivered by God, provided for a purpose. If not, there wouldn't be massive piles and piles and piles of them, like the apples that fall from a tree if they are not eaten.

So, that's basically it. There's signs that indicate an animal is OK to eat, IF its the correct animal and IF its the right parts only, and IF it is slaughtered in a specific way, and IF the parts that belong to God are returnd to God, and the parts that have been provided to the earth go directly to the earth. And if all of those things happen in the right time and right place, a person can consume part of the animal and recieve a blessing from God confirming that all of that primitive logic produced a working model for how to live and operate in the crazy material world in harmony with God's will.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Now, to be clear I know murder is wrong, but I'm curious the reason.

I also know they Bible says murder is wrong, but can someone tell me if that's the root of the reason that you (the theist) believe that it's wrong to murder?

-Cheers
At its most basic, because if you allow murder, you might get murdered yourself. Just as if you allow robbery, you might get robbed yourself. On top of that, most religions contain the idea that human life is precious and by default to be preserved, unless there are specific reasons not to.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
A Christian once told me that it shouldn't be illegal to kill an atheist since they are godless. They didn't think secular governments had the right to protect atheists, but had no choice but to obey godless laws. Human rights are not for humans to decide, according to them as a human. This is a rare attitude, but I found it both funny and frightening.
Killing and murder aren't synonymous. Murder is unjustifiable and unlawful killing.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
The length of a person's life is, in theory, God's will. Murder interfere's with God's will. This begs the question about any sort of killing for the purpose of food, because, that killing can be perceived as an individual altering the life span of any living thing in opposition to God's will. Answering that question requires many more words. If you would like me to elaborate, please let me know.
See my statement in the post above.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/they/it/neopronouns
Oh boy, it's super complicated. Be ready for a long read.

So, the first question is, how do I know that I am supposed to eat? God provided me with hunger. God provided me with relief after I eat. God provided me with gratitude for recieving food. All of those thing justify consumption. God provided hunger.

Next step is to figure out what God provided for me to eat. I'm going to be looking for things which are, for lack of better words, "low hanging fruit". This is easy to imagine in terms of plants. An apple hanging from a low branch among many apples, so many that if I take one no one will miss it, and the tree is actively blooming. God certainly has provided this for food. In Judaism all plants are perfectly kosher ( proper ) for food. ( assuming it wasn't a branch that was grafted, which would be violating God's will / assuming that the plant was not cross-bred which violates God's will )

But, if I imagine myself as a primitve human, sooner or later, I'm going to see another animal ( similar to myself, maybe ) eating another animal. From this, I might consider, "Did God provide animals for me to eat as well?" The same mental question-answer will occur with insects too. "Did God provide those for me?"

So, if I were looking for signs of whether or not these moving things ( like me ) are provided, intended for me, I might consider.. first of all, is it a dangerous for me? Does it have sharp teeth and claws? Is it a natural predator. ( Those are prohibited ). Does it burrow into the ground? Maybe that means God is hiding it from me ( rabbit is prohibited, moles, etc.. ). The same logic is applied to all insects, worms, etc... those things burrow and hide themself from me. The same logic is applied to shellfish. God put them under the sea, made them look like rocks, and I have to work my little kosher rear end to get the good stuff out from it? Nope, those are out too.

So that leaves herding animals. Blunt teeth, hooves. Eats grass. Non-predators, not dangerous. They like to live where I might like to live. Near water sources in open spaces, etc... but this still doesn't tell me that they are provided for me to eat. But ... there's signs that they are being provided for some purpose other than just, I don't know, being there.

If I go back to the "low hanging fruit" idea and apply it to herding animals, something is going on there. The animals are kind of like low hanging fruit. The key aspect is the number, and that they are reproducing actively and have developed into a herd kind of like a bunch of grapes. This tells me that God is providing them for some purpose that maybe isn't being actualized, for lack of a better word. So I wonder what that purpose is.

If we start to analyze the signs that are described in the Torah for a kosher animal, there's something unique about them which seperates them from the others. But on first glance, these differences serve no real purpose for their surviving or thriving. ( Perhaps they do/did have a purpose, but as a primitive person, I wouldn't know that, I don't know anything about evolution or science ). These seemingly uneeded differences are confirming in my mind that these animals have a unique but hidden purpose for which they have been provided by God.

Something to consider.

In the story, in the beginning, only plants were granted as food, but all of humanity was instructed to, sheppard, for lack of a better word, the natural world. And, in th story of Cain and Abel, Abel brought the best of the flock. But they were not permitted to eat the animals yet. And God accepted Abel's offering, but declined Cains. According to the story, somehow, Abel figured out that animals could be offered and God accepted it, but didn't receive any... carnal reward for it.

So, I'm a primitive person, and I notice, that certain types of animals, respect me, and permit me to approach them, and are gentle, and might even follow me around if I carry a big sheppard's stick. And some animals, like horses for example, defintely don't do those things. Something about that lamb is telling me, "I want to do what you command". And when I care for them, and sheppard them they produce many offspring. Maybe those ofspring, the perfect ones, have a higher purpose. ( Kosher animals are selcted based on these criteria )

And it's feet are split, telling me it wants to be lifted up. And it chews its cud, it has multiple divided stomach cavities, telling me it refines the world, and it divides, and seperates which is reflecting a primitve version of consecration, selecting something for a higher purpose. I'm starting to feel confident that this little beast was provided, brought down, for the specific purpose of being lifted back up.

So, I build an altar and I discover that there is a painless way to slaughter it. Perhaps with obsidian (arguably the keenest edge, even by today's standards, just scattered all over the place if a peson knows where to look ) or some other thing which again I discover has been provided by God for this purpose. Now I'm feeling like all sources are pointing towards, it's OK to kill this little beast. I have been provided the tools, the knowledge, the animal seems to have been designed for this specific purpose, it's like low hanging fruit. So I kill it offer it and I eat it and see what happens.

The same sort of logic is applied to derive which parts of the animal belong on the fire, it's rather "magical" what happens when fat is placed on a fire, when I kill it, the blood does not seem to be provided for me. But this beast has long powerful legs, but it never seems to run away. Maybe that part is for me? So now I've decided which parts of the animal have been provided by God for me. And the aroma. Oh my goodness. That's magical. The smoke!!!! Wow! I notice dead things and rotten things don't smell right. But this is glorious, for lack of a better word. I'm feeling really really good that God has set the table, so to speak, for all this to occur.

Meat in the primitve diet maybe helped brain development? I'm not sure, I think diversity of food sources helped brain development at the least. Meat can be preserved using primitive technology. Killing animals helps sustain me through the winter when plants are not blooming. If my brain is developing, and I am develping more abstract thoughts, and this is correlating to a deeper appreciation of the natural world, and simultaneously, I'm starting to make abstract realizations about an underying truth and cooperative realtionship that exists among all things. And this is leading to a god-concept, which is telling me, **all of this has been provided for me. All of it has been provided to approach God, to understand God, to have a relationship with something far bigger than anything I can ever know.**

But part of that includes ID'ing certain animals are being provided for a specific hidden purpose. Relaizing that the obsidian wasn't just randomly provided in seemingly unlimited quantity. Have you ever seen an obsidian flow? It's like another planet. And there is so much razor sharp obsidian, it's other-worldly. All of those primitve knives, were delivered by God, provided for a purpose. If not, there wouldn't be massive piles and piles and piles of them, like the apples that fall from a tree if they are not eaten.

So, that's basically it. There's signs that indicate an animal is OK to eat, IF its the correct animal and IF its the right parts only, and IF it is slaughtered in a specific way, and IF the parts that belong to God are returnd to God, and the parts that have been provided to the earth go directly to the earth. And if all of those things happen in the right time and right place, a person can consume part of the animal and recieve a blessing from God confirming that all of that primitive logic produced a working model for how to live and operate in the crazy material world in harmony with God's will.
This is interesting. I've never thought about why some animals are kosher and some aren't.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It's wrong to deprive someone of their free will.
By killing someone, you kill their free will too.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/they/it/neopronouns
@EconGuy
Did you just mean murder as in killing another human or are animals included in this? And in regards to murder do you mean killing in general or unjustifiable killing? When I heard murder I thought you meant the legal definition. That's kinda why I reacted so strongly
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I think there are certainly Christians (since that's the theists we're probably actually talking about) who are willing to make statements where the subtext is 'without god you have no morals,' such as the infamous interview where someone tweeted Ricky Gervais "If you don't believe in God, why don't you just go out and rape and murder as much as you want?"

But I think most, when confronted with the implication of 'does that mean your belief in God is the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering?' They will answer in the negative. Which is good.

The challenge is seperating the self-ish desire to do no harm from the self-less desire to do no harm. The Christian has both.

Other's? I don't know what they use other than, "that doesn't feel good to me, when I imagine someone doing that to me."

That ^^ is a purely self-centered approach to morality which can be corupted, imo, easily corrupted. A simple shift in power dynamic, where they "cannot imagine someone doing that to me" sets the stage for the corruption.

 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
See my statement in the post above.

From a Jewish perspective, ideally, the individual is only killing when it is God's will. That is the metric for evaluating "justified" and "lawful".

Not a perfect system. But, it is what it is.
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/they/it/neopronouns
The challenge is seperating the self-ish desire to do no harm from the self-less desire to do no harm. The Christian has both.

Other's? I don't know what they use other than, "that doesn't feel good to me, when I imagine someone doing that to me."

That ^^ is a purely self-centered approach to morality which can be corupted, imo, easily corrupted. A simple shift in power dynamic, where they "cannot imagine someone doing that to me" sets the stage for the corruption.

If I recall correctly(I haven't read the link) the Sanford prison experiment was rigged. The guys running it pushed the guards to harm folk. They delibrately asked the guards to harm folk. It was awful.


I'm not a Christian but I use empathy,logic, and listening to other people to figure out morals. I know if something hurts someone by asking them how they feel and about how they experience the world. I also use other things to gauge morality.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
This is interesting. I've never thought about why some animals are kosher and some aren't.

The law is written on scrolls. Again, this is primitive tech. If all the law, and all the detail were included in writing, the scribe would never stop writing. No scroll would have ever been completed. Because of this, the law is extremely compacted. It requires unpacking. When that happens it's amazing what a person can find.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If I recall correctly(I haven't read the link) the Sanford prison experiment was rigged. The guys running it pushed the guards to harm folk. They delibrately asked the guards to harm folk. It was awful.

That's why I said their morality was "corrupted".

I'm not a Christian but I use empathy,logic, and listening to other people to figure out morals. I know if something hurts someone by asking them how they feel and about how they experience the world. I also use other things to gauge morality.

People can be manipulated. I hope and pray that this never happens to you.
 
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