Theist's the Hard Truth

[Nakosis]

Usually, sure. Always exceptions.

I'll assume you have a concept of God. You have to believe this concept is correct and correct for everyone?

The ultimate reality, "God". Are there many wrong or bad concepts about God?

What gets me is believers are usually certain about God, whatever their concept of God is. Then they generally assume this God is the truth and is the truth for everyone.

If it is not, and everyone has their own God, then whatever you feel is right, about God, go with it. Reality doesn't work that way but belief in God seems to.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'll assume you have a concept of God. You have to believe this concept is correct and correct for everyone?

The ultimate reality, "God". Are there many wrong or bad concepts about God?

What gets me is believers are usually certain about God, whatever their concept of God is. Then they generally assume this God is the truth and is the truth for everyone.

If it is not, and everyone has their own God, then whatever you feel is right, about God, go with it. Reality doesn't work that way but belief in God seems to.

Yes, I have a concept of God. It's a personal one, and it's definitely not suitable for everyone. I wouldn't recommend it for a lot of people. From my POV, there are no 'wrong' concepts, just differing ones. I understand your frustration about a certain brand of theist, but not all theists are like that. Same is true for atheists; there is variety.

 

[Jim]

If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist.

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?

Those questions all look rhetorical to me. Are they, or is there some actual curiosity in there somewhere?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Does anyone ever attain it? And how would you know if they did? For that matter how would the individual know they had?

I can't speak intelligently about what another perceives. But I would offer from my understanding that it's much in the way the dreaming self awakens from a dream into relative reality. The waking self knows s/he's been dreaming and realizes an altered sense of perception. But the dreaming self doesn't realize s/he's dreaming until s/he's awakened.

 

[Nakosis]

Those questions all look rhetorical to me. Are they, or is there some actual curiosity in there somewhere?

To me, it's more a matter of asking oneself the source of why we default to belief in a God.

Is there a valid reason that justifies belief or is it a matter of how we've been taught to think?

 

[Jim]

Is there a valid reason that justifies belief or is it a matter of how we've been taught to think?

Is there really any question or doubt in your mind, about which it is?

 

[Jim]

(Sigh) Why am I even asking? @Nakosis Sorry for the intrusion.

 

[Nakosis]

Is there really any question or doubt in your mind, about which it is?

There's always room for doubt.
For me, with my experience with religion/belief it was easy to relate my experience to various concepts of God.

IMHO, I believe the subconscious mind is able to provide an experience to support our belief in a God. Whatever religion I involved myself in my subconscious mind was right there to support whatever concept of God I had. Experiences that IMO would make anyone accept the reality of God.

However all of these beliefs were different concepts, such that they couldn't all be true but what I experienced created a great deal of certainty that each was true. If it seems true/feels true oughten one accept it as true?

Any God/belief/religion IMO can feel true, real if one invests enough into it. At least that is what I found. Christian, Hindu, Pagan, Native American, Buddhism, even Scientology.

Accept any of them, all of them, anyone of them in my experience is a capable of providing as much certainty as the next.

Or question one's own certainty.

 

[Jollybear]

Many people that do not identify as religious or spiritual also teach that bullying and hurting others is wrong.

Sorry, but this qualifies as a moral or ethical value, not a religious or spiritual one. If one needs a religion to tell them that hurting others is wrong, perhaps one should look at their psychological profile rather than what religion (or lack thereof) that they follow.

Why does it have to be religious to be ego, but ethics to not be ego?

Either way, one is trying to convince the other that they are wrong.

So, why is one ego and the other is not?

 

[Jollybear]

Are you implying that, now that you are a Christian, that there is something "special [or] unique to show for it all?"

Or that, now that you are a Christian, the universe does not "just [continue] on as it always has?"

I guess I am having a really hard time deciphering your point.

To understand my point, you have to read the OP and compare it to that.

 

[robocop (actually)]

If you were born to a devout Hindu family in Mumbai India, or to a pious Christian family in Atlanta Georgia, would you be a convinced Muslim today? Of course, you cannot answer that question for certain but, statistically there is an extremely high probability that you would be a Hindu or a Christian and you would believe Muslims have got almost everything wrong.

Hindus and Christians can ask themselves a similar question and they will get a similar result.

The hard truth is, you are not certain your faith is true because you have determined it is true through evidence and reason; you are certain it is true because you have been TRAINED to believe it is true, and to behave as though it is true.

The hardest truth of all is, with respect to your faith, you have more in common with a performing dog than with a rational, intelligent human being.
The hardest truth of all - Atheist Alliance International

It's annoy a Theist week, or, on the road to becoming a militant atheist.

So the idea is that you believe because you were train to believe. Can you convince yourself or someone else otherwise?

As a kid many get trained to think in terms of a God. Even if raised as an atheist it's hard to escape being taught what God is, even as someone else's belief.

So you convert from one religion to another, still thinking in terms of God. Or maybe as a atheist convert to some belief, thinking in terms of a God you were taught not to believe in.

I'm not saying atheists don't have their own issues with being trained in how to think. but, does the belief in God persist because it's is how we were trained to think?

That's why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does vicarious baptisms for the dead, so that if someone would have accepted the gospel had it been appropriately introduced to them they can be saved anyway.

 

[Jim]

Or question one's own certainty.

That’s what I was wondering about, whether you are questioning your own certainty that there can’t possibly ever be any self-honest, self-critical, skeptical, responsible freethinking reason for anyone to say that they believe in God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And that......is a BIG assumption. A wrong one too.

What evidence do you have that the assumption is wrong?

 

[Nakosis]

That's why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does vicarious baptisms for the dead, so that if someone would have accepted the gospel had it been appropriately introduced to them they can be saved anyway.

Do you think being baptized is what gets people into heaven?

 

[sayak83]

There's always room for doubt.
For me, with my experience with religion/belief it was easy to relate my experience to various concepts of God.

IMHO, I believe the subconscious mind is able to provide an experience to support our belief in a God. Whatever religion I involved myself in my subconscious mind was right there to support whatever concept of God I had. Experiences that IMO would make anyone accept the reality of God.

However all of these beliefs were different concepts, such that they couldn't all be true but what I experienced created a great deal of certainty that each was true. If it seems true/feels true oughten one accept it as true?

Any God/belief/religion IMO can feel true, real if one invests enough into it. At least that is what I found. Christian, Hindu, Pagan, Native American, Buddhism, even Scientology.

Accept any of them, all of them, anyone of them in my experience is a capable of providing as much certainty as the next.

Or question one's own certainty.

Look, a truly discerning person does not follow a religion or any worldview but uses it as a tool to improve their personality, character, sense of meaningfulness/fulfillment and understanding of the world and the beings in it. Actually every worldview/religion is such a toolbox or a set of maps that are there to aid you in this process or journey. You should use your discernment and pick the tools that work for you and leave the rest in the box....while acknowledging that other people may find other tool combinations more useful for their individual needs.
The fundamentalist theist try to shove their own chosen tools onto everyone else while a fundamentalist atheist try to snatch everyone else's tools away from them because they did not find it useful themselves. That's where the problem lies.
If you wish to discuss specific ideas in Hinduism or Buddhism, I am happy to discuss with you the logic/justification/utility of them as far as I am able. I adopt Hinduism as its useful to me in many many ways in the mental realm, in the same ways clothes and shoes are useful in the material realm. I can explain how...but whether or not you find it useful or not depends upon your mental make-up is it not? One size does not fit all, even in this day of standardized sizing and mass productions.

 

[Augustus]

Atheist societies? That is a new one to me. I am not an atheist, but as far as my experience atheists are not predictable conformists, but came to their belief by an independent investigation of why people believe, and reject conformity.

Yet people who actively describe themselves as 'freethinkers' always seem to think the same things

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does vicarious baptisms for the dead, so that if someone would have accepted the gospel had it been appropriately introduced to them they can be saved anyway.

Don't you see that as disrespectful of the dead? Perhaps inserting your own selfish wants upon them? They were sued by the Jews, after all, following post-WWII proxy-baptisms of Jewish Holocaust victims and ordered to cease doing it to deceased Jewish people.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Humans in remaining part of the culture they were born into shocker!

I know, right??

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Its a little more complicated since the majority of people grow and change during their lifetimes, so their religion doesn't stay exactly the same. Cultures and religions are tightly related items as are political contracts, and that is a good thing overall.

It is one good explanation, though it is not the only explanation. Lets also not treat all religions as if they are the same, because they are not the same in my opinion. Maybe the people are. Maybe the people want to trust in their friends, their loved ones and their social leaders. That is a good thing, so how does it disprove theism? Rather it upholds theism. If people did not do this, then they would show distrust of everyone around them. Society would fall apart. Its better that only some question and ponder though it be difficult for them. I guess one thing to consider here is that people are not always so close to God as we would like to think. The distinctions we make between us are not as solid as they appear.

I think it very much shows that religion is just a cultural thing, and not at all an accurate depiction of reality.

Ask yourself why beliefs about gravity aren't culturally bound.

Whenever beliefs about the nature of reality are culturally bound, it is a clear hint that those beliefs consists of myths and legend, and not accurate representations of the real world.

 

[Jollybear]

What evidence do you have that the assumption is wrong?

All the evidence youve probably already heard, ad infinitum.

History, enecdotal NDEs, OBEs, ESPs, apparitions. Intelligent design.