Then the world would still be a garden of eden.I would expect it to not have consciousness.
Before consciousness evolved, there were no gods of man made story telling.
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Then the world would still be a garden of eden.I would expect it to not have consciousness.
i am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...I have a genuine question for theists and it is not meant to be a trick in any way. There are many things that I would expect to see in a universe containing a benevolent, omnipotent, personal god that I don't see in this universe, which leads me to conclude that such a god is unlikely to exist. I'm curious as to what theists would expect to see in a godless universe, and how a godless universe would differ from one in which a god existed. What would you expect this universe to look like if no gods existed, and how would that be different from the current universe?
The "cause" of the universe is yet unknown. The very notion of causation appears to be an artifact of the configuration of laws and constants peculiar to this, existing universe.i am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...
Are not the laws of conservation of energy and matter such that if there is no transcendant cause, there can be no universe? A cause cannot create itself and given the big bang background microwave radiation discouvery, its impossible i think to claim the universe did not have a point of origin.
O in a word, noi am in on this very late...so i go back to the original question...
Are not the laws of conservation of energy and matter such that if there is no transcendant cause, there can be no universe?
Exactly. Causality, such as it exists, is a product of the material laws. It applies within the universe, not outside of it (whatever that could mean). So the very idea of a cause for the universe is problematic.The "cause" of the universe is yet unknown. The very notion of causation appears to be an artifact of the configuration of laws and constants peculiar to this, existing universe.
In the quantum reality underlying the physics of this universe, cause and effect are not clearly evidenced, as they are in our experiential world.
Exactly. Causality, such as it exists, is a product of the material laws. It applies within the universe, not outside of it (whatever that could mean). So the very idea of a cause for the universe is problematic.
This is not to mention that causality is not universal. At the quantum level most events are not caused. Instead they are probabilistic.
The probabilistic universe assumption is based on the assumptions of space-time or where space and time are connected. The analogy is a three legged race, where two people are tethered leg left to right leg, so they need to work as a team. This tether places limits of each person, since if the two do not coordinate, they will slow down or even fall. The three legged race of space-time places limits as to what is optimized; win the race, that we call the laws of physics.
If we were to take off the tether of the three legged race of space-time, so both space and time could act independently, each variable now has more options and both can outrun their three legged race team; breaks the rules or limits of space-time. Currently, we try to approximate with this statistics relative to space-time, but that is only a first approximation and is not fully rational. It places independent space and independent time in a black box, where it cannot be unraveled, but remains nebulous; fuzzy dice.
I understand space-time in the context of connected or tethered space-time, also being interfaced, where space and time are not connected. This extra is currently modeled with statistical mechanics. Reality is not as clear cut as the ideal three legged race of space-time, which is why statistical mechanics was added. The tether of the three legged race of space-time is not put on tight, as the rules imply.It seems you don't understand the concept of spacetime.
People believe what they want to believe, that's why. Atheists think, if God is a loving God then how come I didn't get the toy I wanted one Christmas? You didn't get the toy you wanted one Christmas because your parents were bad people, not because God did not exist.
I have said in other threads that the atheist position is that we do not believe god(s) exist not we make the claim that god(s) do not exist. The burden of proof thus falls to the theist to show god in the vast unknown universe.Atheists say God does not exist, not, maybe God exists or doesn't exist. They are absolutely sure God does not exist but they have not explored even .1% of the universe so how would they know?
Only the creationist claims the universe was planned. Physics and chemistry are not random. They're strictly governed by natural, unconscious laws and constants. You've chosen to attribute the apparent order you see in your world to superhuman intention. Why?A Godless universe could not be planned in advanced, since there is no consciousness to do this and there is no sense of order among the components, only random possibilities.
Yet there's neither need nor objective evidence of such an architect.With a God, we assume that there is an architect, who broods, designs and even spec the design; cost and resources, before it is built. His design may need new yet to be developed resources, that are also developed in the lab before the build.
Again, this presupposes a random, chaotic, unordered universe..A Godless universe build, would be more like building off the cuff, while having no building, planning or even design skills; cavemen trying to build the Taj Mahal by throwing into pile of rubble. They would use more like a blank stare black box trial and error approach, at each step of the build, hoping one day the pile of rubble is the Taj Mahal. The universe is not quite that old for all the needed casino jack pots for this to make sense. The house of rubble would win in the end of the day; age of the universe.
You're simply regurgitating the unevidenced religious mythology I assume you were raised with and are emotionally invested in.God, as the architect of the universe, would plan more in his head, without getting dirty, until the design is done. Since he is God, time is not a problem, since he is eternal. This would even allow him to even employ the caveman method; random simulation iteration, but on paper or in his head until a working design appears. There is plenty of time in eternity even for random. Once a good solution appears, it is time to break ground; Boom!
Trial and error? The only universe we're aware of has been unfolding smoothly for billions of years. Where are you getting these repeated dice rolls?A godless physical universe has a time constraint based on the age the universe, with all the random trial and error within each step of material reality each taking time; how many rolls of the dice to do x, then y and then z. There is not enough time with just dice and cards.
Huh? Where do you come up with these flights of fancy?The work around would be to do the dice and cards simulation, where time is not a limiting step; timeless eternity or in the lab using reference shifting computing, to get faster time computing reference frames, so billion year dice and card simulation can appear in days in our reference. This is beyond current physics but is implied by the concept of God.
But this is not the universe we inhabit. Time and space are equivalent; sides of the same coin.We live in a space-time universe, where space and time are tethered like a three legged race, placing limits on space and time; the speed of light. But if time and space were not connected, but each could act as separate and independent variables, the time constraint will be gone. This opens more design options. If one could move in space, independent of time, we could be everywhere in the universe in zero time. This is useful for the architect drawing the big picture on paper. One stroke of the pencil, and we have a possible full universe layout. We can then use time, with distance held constant. This can add a holographic time feature; independent of space, such as the laws of physics will now apply all over the blue print. This is a good simplifying assumption to make the job easier. Next, we criss-cross independent time and space; act together, so they appear to junction, but not yet tethered; millions of simulations to get the bugs out; time frame computing.
You've woven an elaborate, hypothetical fantasy world, somehow including a magical architect designing it.Then we glue a permanent junction; tether, to form permanent space-time; mass of the primordial atom. This is placed within the blue print of independent space and time. This allow a potential to appear; 2nd law between space-time; simplicity, and independent space and time; infinite complexity. Boom! This is followed by movement of space-time to fill in the blue print via the laws of Physics, within the matrix of independent space and time.
This model will also fill in the range of intermediate physics, that is between the two extremes, that includes quantum, life and consciousness. In this modem, life and then human will one day be able to plan in their heads before building, thereby putting random in a box; quality control. This will establish the modern extrapolation that implies that the original design was also more than just random; heading toward this final goal. Human will take it the next limit; their own eternal consciousness, where time and space are not tethered, and there are no limits other than what the imagination can build; labs of eternal paradise designs.
Huh?I understand space-time in the context of connected or tethered space-time, also being interfaced, where space and time are not connected.
I have no idea where you get the analogy of a three legged race, but it doesn't fit anything I know about spacetime.This extra is currently modeled with statistical mechanics. Reality is not as clear cut as the ideal three legged race of space-time, which is why statistical mechanics was added. The tether of the three legged race of space-time is not put on tight, as the rules imply.
Basically correct.For example, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that we cannot know both the position and momentum/speed of a particle, such as a photon or electron, with perfect accuracy; the more we nail down the particle's position, the less we know about its speed and vice versa.
Huh? What does it even mean for space and time to be 'tethered'? What does it even mean to say they are 'independent'?The simplest explanation is; space and time are not perfectly tethered, in the three legged race of space-time, but rather space and time each have more independence than is currently assumed.
Once again, what does it even mean for space and time to be 'tethered' or not?With this assumption, we can still perfectly measure position, but with time uncertainty, the momentum cannot be measured perfectly. On the other hand, even if we measure momentum with precision, distance potential uncertainty; not tightly tethered in space, uncertainty in position will appear. Heisenberg showed both variables were loose. This is the simplest explanation. It also can also be applied to quantum anomalies; ratios of the added/subtracted time and/or distance potential to space-time.
It is precisely because time is not stopped that we get blurring. The shutter lets light through for longer than the action of the film. So we see images from several different times.Let me expand the model of independent space and independent time, to a deeper understanding of the forces of nature. This is easiest to see starting with another picture of motion blur; see below. Again the shutter speed of the camera; how fast the film is exposed, is slower than the action. Since the still photo stops time=0, the delta speed or difference in speed become expressed as uncertainty in distance.
but time was NOT stopped! That is the whole point.We will sense motion, even with time stopped.
And no, that is not the effect that makes an electron 'blurred out'.Like the electron in an orbital, it appears everywhere via a probability function. The image is limited due to the dance step not trying to fill in like an electron. But he is most likely in the center.
Huh? No, they do not.When you think about the forces of nature, they all emanate from a solid particle core, like a ghost connected to the core; visual analogy.
No, it does not.The above still photo does not exactly express this, since the photo has stopped time.
You are confusing the effects of taking photos with longer exposure than the film action and some sort of independence of space and time.The forces of nature, like a movie, will need time to act. This movie will over expose the film; gets too bright and will obscure with uncertainty, since the shutter is open too long. It will create a more dynamic motion blur effect; uncertainty in distance or hard to measure momentum.
In videos, the shutter speed is controlled by a spinning 1/2 disk; 180 degrees. As the film advances, the disk spins. The open or empty, 180 degree of the shutter, exposes the film. Then as it continued to spin the solid 180 of the spinning disk, covers the film, as the film steps to the next frame. In many ways, this action mimics waves and the quantum state, where there are distinct states with empty gaps in the middle for force exposure.
To get the motion blur needed to make force appear to emanate from an object, such as a charge, the action speed needs to be faster than the shutter speed. This comes from the reference at the speed of light. Force emanates at the speed of light; action. While the matter that contains the force is quantified, and restricts to below the speed of light; camera at the quantum material shutter speed of each force,
Below are some movie stills based on long shutter and different exposures; forces of nature. Gravity has more than one face; reference.
Shutter speed is d/t ,or various ratios of distance and time potential.