Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[rational experiences]

Psalm 33:6

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.
Source: 51 Bible verses about Stars

Nehemiah 9:6

“You alone are the Lord.You have made the heavens,The heaven of heavens with all their host,The earth and all that is on it,The seas and all that is in them.You give life to all of themAnd the heavenly host bows down before You.
2

“If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the Lord your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, by transgressing His covenant,
3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded,
4

and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel,

The contradiction, in the deuter, meaning spatial womb it is said, did not own these bodies.
Science says that the stone mass of Earth is oxygenated as a study.
If a hole/opening opened in God then in old science symbolism which everyone overlooks, how it was taught, a mouth opened in the Earth. For old science was done by a human comparison theme using male and female terms.

Modern science stopped using those terms to teach science as non sexually related, so that science could not be taught as being owner of the creation of life. Which modern science also overlooks as relevant teaching, for you have returned to the old ways of thinking thesis.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What is there to back up. Reality without mathematical structure would be a fragmented soup. Do you disagree?

Does reality depend on our mathematics?

 

[Vee]

What would you expect this universe to look like if no gods existed, and how would that be different from the current universe?

I universe without God would mean a life without hope. We live in difficult times, but as long as I still have hope I can make it from one day to the next.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why can't you hope without thinking of God? But habits die hard.

 

[Koldo]

A few atheists maintain that God absolutely does not exist? Okay, but once again, how could they know if they haven't explored even 1% of the universe?

Do we have to look through all of the universe to say that God doesn't exist?

I don't get it. What are we supposed to find exactly?

 

[syo]

No Gods = No universe.

 

[ChristineM]

Atheists say God does not exist, not, maybe God exists or doesn't exist. They are absolutely sure God does not exist but they have not explored even .1% of the universe so how would they know?

And many religious are absolutely sure their god exists yet science has only explored 4% (fyi not less then 0. 1%) of the visible universe so how could they know?

From the atheist view, exploration of the universe is not a requirement to counter any of the claims made by god believers, what it boils down to is falsifiable evidence of which there is none.

People believe what they want to believe, that's why. Atheists think, if God is a loving God then how come I didn't get the toy I wanted one Christmas? You didn't get the toy you wanted one Christmas because your parents were bad people, not because God did not exist.

Sheesh? Why would someone who has no belief in god even try to blame a none existent myth. And how about those parents who could not afford whatever toy, are they bad people for non spending money on toys that is needed for food and generally staying alive?

Why would a godless universe not exist? Atheists and scientists think that there is a grand unified theory of everything, basically math and theory that explains how the universe formed itself without a supreme being. There is no such thing because that is impossible.

Why to you believe that someone who does not believe in any god has to be of a scientific mindset?

Do you have any idea what the quest for a theory that resolves the differences between quantum and classical mechanics is? It most certainly would not/could not involve how the universe formed.

As to the real question of how the universe formed the answer is *no one knows* i know of 28 hypothesis, each plausible either mathematically or from observation of current conditions. None include god magic.

 

[Thief]

You've got the cart before the horse. The universe wasn't designed to compliment our pre-existing aesthetics. Our sense of beauty evolved to attract us to things and places that were useful to us. There is no universal, eternal aesthetic. There is no reason to expect one.

Flies evolved to be attracted to s**t; vultures to be attracted to carrion.To them, the sight and odor are beautiful. Is this aesthetic also writ in stone; part of a divine, universal aesthetic?

Please give us an example of purposeful interaction not naturally explainable. Please explain how natural selection would not favor certain molecular arrangements.


OK. An interesting claim. Can you back it up, or is this just a personal opinion?

I place Spirit first
otherwise a lengthy discussion needs to be made as to how....
substance is 'self' creating
substance is 'self' motivating

and those two statements would fly in the face of science

 

[sayak83]

Does reality depend on our mathematics?

Yes. Mathematics is fully objective and there is no "our" or their in it. Mathematical truths have independent existence and not conditioned on physical reality.

 

[Super Universe]

For the same reason you don't believe in Cthulu or pixies -- because, lacking evidence, there is no logical reason to believe in them; no more reason to believe in God or unicorns than some entity I dreamt up last night.

You're arguing for belief in everything till contrary evidence be found. This is totally impracticable. Surely you can see that. What reason do you have to believe in an invisible God? Personal incredulity? argument from authority/ad populum?

It is neither reasonable nor logical to believe in God, right?
'Think' -- or feel? Thinking involves critical analysis of verifiable facts.
What do you mean by primitive? No longer fashionable? Why is the Abrahamic God less primitive?

And why "nope?" Lack of evidence? But that's the argument atheists use.
Maybe the people you associate with, but not those I associate with. Not academics, not intellectuals, not thoughtful people. Only the religious; the faithful; those who believe without evidence.
Evidently you don't understand "evidence" or how to evaluate it. Folklore is not evidence.
Impracticable, not impractical.
Yes. Their belief-without-evidence is unreasonable.
Do they not call it 'faith'? Isn't faith defined as unsupported belief?
Interesting. I've been on RF for a long time, and I've noticed threads about faith or theism are usually flooded with clarifications and arguments that atheists rarely deny God, but merely withhold belief pending evidence.
Evidence?
But these arguments are a priori. You're using God as a premise again. You're arguing backwards from your conclusion.
"GUT?"
So you're a slave to your upbringing? You can't question what your parents told you? You can't reason from facts or use logic?

Atheists don't believe because there is no evidence? Nope, that's a lie and atheists know it. They're angry because they think if God exists then He didn't do what they wanted Him to do.

I'm not arguing for the belief in everything. The evidence for God is the universe itself.

Thining involves critical analysis of facts? Humans are emotional beings, not robots.

Why is the Abrahamic God less primitive? God is the most complicated thing in existence. Humans ideas of God will evolve over time. We won't have a clear and truly accurate understanding of God for another 1,000 years.

Why don't I believe in Martians? Because we have probes there and there is no evidence. How much of the universe have atheists explored?

Academics don't blame others for their messed up lives? Oh, they do, they really do.

Folklore is not evidence? Really? So the Jews never existed and never escaped Egypt? And the City of Troy never existed? And the Battle of Thermopylae never happened? Do you have any evidence for your claims?

Do theists not call it faith? They do. I'm not a man of faith. I know.

You've noticed atheists merely withhold belief pending evidence? Remember the thread titled "Jesus body was eaten by dogs?" That's a lot of anger. That's not "Well, maybe God and Jesus do exist, I don't know." That is "I'm pissed off because a Christian did something to me and ruined my life."

What evidence do I have for unicorns? I know more about how the universe works than you do. If you can think of it then it has to exist because humans are incapable of thinking of an original thought.

I'm using God as a premise? No, the universe is the premise.

GUT is the Grand Unified Theory. The math that finally gets quantum math to fit in with relativistic math.

I'm a slave to my upbringing? Nope. My parents divorced when I was 4. My mom was not religious at all, she was actually very angry at God/religion, nothing was ever her fault it was always someone elses fault. Dad tried to raise me to be a Jehovah's Witness but I resisted it and once he realized I wasn't buying into it he abandoned me at 16 because JW's are not supposed to associate with anyone who does not accept their beliefs, and that really was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

I believe in God because I had a vision that woke me up. I cannot choose to not believe.

 

[Super Universe]

No atheist is absolutely sure that God does not exist. I am not even absolutely sure I am not a brain in a vat being fed by aliens looking like Mickey Mouse. Implausible, but not impossible.


I think it has less to do with presents at Christmas, and more to do with kids cancer and such.



Impossible means that there is a logical contradiction in the claim, at least in classical logic. Which is?

Ciao

- viole

No atheists is sure that God does not exist? Correct. And no theist is actually sure that God does exist. It's entirely based upon the person, their feelings, their desire.

God can't exist because kids get cancer? Yeah, it's bad. The universe is not a nice place. It's the gladiator pit. It's not built for you to lay among the wildflowers and soak up the sun. The earth was supposed to be a somewhat unique experiment. Many things that were supposed to happen did not happen because of the Lucifer rebellion. Also, others interfered with human genetics and it's a mess now, way too many selfish genes and mutations. God does not interfere in any individuals free will.

The deck is stacked against you. There is no doubt. You have to not only get through life while taking care of yourself and your family but you also have to really care about others when everything inside is telling you not to. They don't deserve it, too many bad people out there. They really don't deserve your help but the universe is watching. What are you going to do?

The logical contradiction is that the universe could create itself without God. Can't happen.

 

[Valjean]

I place Spirit first
otherwise a lengthy discussion needs to be made as to how....
substance is 'self' creating
substance is 'self' motivating

and those two statements would fly in the face of science

No, those phenomena are precisely within the purview of science.
What else would explain them?

 

[Valjean]

I universe without God would mean a life without hope. We live in difficult times, but as long as I still have hope I can make it from one day to the next.

A life without hope? Why? I don't understand.
You can't have hope without some mythology?

 

[Valjean]

No Gods = No universe.

Explain your reasoning. I don't see any sense in this.

 

[Super Universe]

Do we have to look through all of the universe to say that God doesn't exist?

I don't get it. What are we supposed to find exactly?

What percent of the universe do I think you need to explore to be sure that God does not exist anywhere? I think most people would say that 1% is not enough. Maybe 90% but even then you can't be entirely sure until you've seen all of it.

What are we supposed to find? God.

 

[Koldo]

What percent of the universe do I think you need to explore to be sure that God does not exist anywhere? I think most people would say that 1% is not enough. Maybe 90% but even then you can't be entirely sure until you've seen all of it.

What are we supposed to find? God.

But how am I supposed to know if I have found God? How does it look like ?

 

[Super Universe]

But how am I supposed to know if I have found God? How does it look like ?

You'll know.

 

[Valjean]

Atheists don't believe because there is no evidence? Nope, that's a lie and atheists know it. They're angry because they think if God exists then He didn't do what they wanted Him to do.

But this is just ridiculous. Seriously, where did you get this idea?

I'm not arguing for the belief in everything. The evidence for God is the universe itself.

How so? Theists have always pointed to phenomena they don't understand as evidence for God, and as science has explained the phenomena they just retreat to other, yet-to-be-explained phenomena.

How is the existence of the universe evidence for magic poofing by some invisible, intentional entity? Why is magic -- which we never observe in our everyday lives, -- more plausible than the natural physics and chemistry we see every day?

Thining involves critical analysis of facts? Humans are emotional beings, not robots.

Humans are both emotional and intellectual. Emotion never explained anything; never advanced our understanding or technology; that was all thinking, ie: formal, critical analysis.

Why is the Abrahamic God less primitive? God is the most complicated thing in existence. Humans ideas of God will evolve over time. We won't have a clear and truly accurate understanding of God for another 1,000 years.

OK.... Why do you say this? Is this an evidence-based opinion, or just an emotional reaction?

Why don't I believe in Martians? Because we have probes there and there is no evidence. How much of the universe have atheists explored?

What would you expect explorers to discover?
Theists paint a picture of a god intensely interested in Earth and mankind; intensely involved in human history. You'd expect there to be some evidence right here, especially considering that Theists insist God wants us to believe in him.

So why insist we'll find the evidence elsewhere? Can't you point out some tangible, observable, measurable evidence right here? Wouldn't it be reasonable to withhold belief till we actually do find evidence somewhere?

Academics don't blame others for their messed up lives? Oh, they do, they really do.

Tell me more about these messed up lives of academics. Where did you hear of this; the same place you heard about the atheists angry at God cause He didn't do what they wanted?

Who is it the academics blame for this? Why don't they do something about their messed up lives?

Folklore is not evidence? Really? So the Jews never existed and never escaped Egypt? And the City of Troy never existed? And the Battle of Thermopylae never happened? Do you have any evidence for your claims?

Evidence is not self contradictory, yet there are thousands of different, contradictory origin stories and theologies.

No, the Egyptian exodus is a myth. It never happened. If you want me to go into this just let me know.
Troy, evidently existed. Homer's story of the Mycenaean war? largely folklore.
Thermopylae? Yes -- better evidenced.

My claims -- or lack thereof -- are evidenced. Are yours? I don't think you understand what constitutes evidence, or how to evaluate it.

You've noticed atheists merely withhold belief pending evidence? Remember the thread titled "Jesus body was eaten by dogs?" That's a lot of anger. That's not "Well, maybe God and Jesus do exist, I don't know." That is "I'm pissed off because a Christian did something to me and ruined my life."

Jesus eaten by dogs? First I've heard about it, yet you use this as evidence for some global anger among atheists?
Atheists aren't angry. They just don't believe. They lead normal, happy lives.

What evidence do I have for unicorns? I know more about how the universe works than you do. If you can think of it then it has to exist because humans are incapable of thinking of an original thought.

O....K....

I'm using God as a premise? No, the universe is the premise.

OK. We can see and measure the universe.
So how does god fit in? Where does he come from?

GUT is the Grand Unified Theory. The math that finally gets quantum math to fit in with relativistic math.
Ah -- got it. Thanx. So how does this fit into your theology?

I believe in God because I had a vision that woke me up. I cannot choose to not believe.

Ah, that explains it, a vision.
I can accept that, but don't expect others to have experienced your vision. Stop making up faux objective evidence to support a purely subjective opinion. Don't expect others to believe without some tangible, measurable, objective evidence.

And I'm still curious about where you got this idea that atheists are an angry, childish demographic in rebellion against God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Valjean
@shunyadragon
@Aupmanyav
@Polymath257


Okay, first off.
What goes on in this thread is not unique to this thread.

Second off, I have been told by a member of the staff that if I claim something which I don't have evidence for, I must say that.
I don't have neither evidence or any logical proof for the fact, then the monitor I can see in front of me is there independent of me. Further I don't know if there is a God or if this is a physical, objective, real universe. I short I have faith and nothing else.

Part 1. I can move around. Well, at least most people can do so, so chances are that I can. Now that I have mobility, I can use it to show the limit of mobility. I can't fly solely by the use of only my body. The general principle is that if I can do something, it might have limits. So I can do evidence and logic, but it might have limits. As some of the naturalists are fond of saying: Science is not an Absolute or True claim. Remember that one. It also applies to them and their faith.

Part 2.
Am I God? Well, no, I don't believe so. I do believe that I am the effect of something which caused me. Henceforth I will talk about that something as the universe, whether it is a natural or God universe. The universe caused me. Now could it be cheating without me knowing it? Well, yes, I know (By know I mean I believe and I don't doubt.) that my brain can cause hallucinations and the outside processes can cause changes in my brain and thus alter my experiences.
So since I know I can't trust my brain, I can't rule out that I am a Boltzmann Brain. Look it up if you have to. So here is what I can't rule out. I am in Boltzmann Brain universe, which consists of a power source and a computer. On the computer is I as a program and the rests of the universe as it appears to me, is simulation to me by the computer. This possibility also applies to you BTW. To you I am not really there and neither is the rest of the universe. It only appears.
I have no way of checking, because for a real universe or Boltzmann Brain universe my experiences would be the same and thus the evidence is the same.

Part 3.
Solipsism and the universe in itself. First off, I am not an ontological solipsist, because I don't believe that I am all that exist. I am an epistemological solipsist. I can only talk about the universe as I experience it. Secondly if the universe is in itself independent of me, then I can't be in it, because I can't be a part of something, which is in itself.
Here is the problem in the standard model of the universe. It is not me, because it caused me and is in itself. But how can something not me become me? That is logic and the limit of logic. At one moment the universe is itself. The next it is not, because it caused me. That leads to a contradiction and thus is the limit of logic.

Part 4. Pantheism, panuniverse and monism. The solution is that there is no difference that the core level, the rest of the universe is just like me. The universe is in me. Not that I am the universe as such, but it makes no sense to talk of something in itself as independent of me. If for the universe in itself caused me, then I can't become me, because then the universe became me and is not in itself.
The in itself is a version of dualism and indeed ontological dualism. The universe is, whether it is, around me and in me and I am a part of it.

Part 5. Neutral monism and what God is? I don't know what God is. I know this about the universe. It can't be psychical in the strong sense, because the model of physicalism in the strict reductive sense can't explain the universe. It is simple. The physical is objective and independent of me, yet I am subjective.
The simple problem is that all of the universe is with evidence and logic, yet I can do some things without evidence and which are illogical. The same problem applies to God. If God is all loving and I come from God and God has caused me, then I can't be bad, but I am sometimes.
So the universe as for what it is at the ontological level seems to be one, yet even that has its limits.

Part 6. Faith. I know the science believers won't like this. I used to be one and I believed I had no faith. I then discovered, that I have a fundamental faith in that the universe is fair. I am not in a Boltzmann Brain universe nor is God a trickster God.
How is that fundamental faith? I live every moment of my life as if the universe is real. I.e. Google: complete trust or confidence in someone or something. I live with complete trust that the universe is fair and I believe in the universe.

Part 7. What is the universe? Natural or God? I don't know and I really don't care. I believe as a combination of an atheist and theist depending on what is at play.

Part 8. For the strong agnostics this doesn't really matter, but for the True Believers in science, it does. They are special, because they have evidence and logic for what the universe really is in itself. Well, they don't! It is no different than those religious believers, who try with evidence, proof, reason, logic and what not and who try to do the same. Just as mobility is limited so is evidence, proof, reason, logic and what not. If you ask, what is really real and you know that in the strong sense, you don't. You have faith.

Regards
Mikkel

 

[Vee]

A life without hope? Why?

Because I'm familiar with human nature. If we rely only on ourselves, we'll end up extinct, along with many other species that will be victims of human cruelty and selfishness.