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Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Why would I need to solve it? The observable universe is consistent enough to be studied and predictable to a high degree. Since I can only perceive the observable universe and that it's consistent, I don't care to prove that I'm not the only "real thing" in the universe. Solipsism is a problem that doesn't really require a solution in my opinion since it only adds a layer of supposition to everything without altering any understanding or observation of the observable universe and that's the only thing we can possibly perceive. The Boltzmann Brain universe is used as a thought experiment to measure the quality of theoretical models, it's not in and itself demonstrated, demonstrable and it would change anything either to our reality much like other thought experiment of the genre like "last thursdayism" which state that God has created everything last thursday and made it look like it does now by artistic license.

Can you spot your own first person subjectivity? And how you are not objective? If science it about testing and not taking for granted, then philosophy can be used to test the limit of science and explain how it is that all scientific knowledge is axiomatic and conditional.

Since you understand science, explain this by a scientist:
"Astronomer William Keel explains:

The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'Viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the universe are the same for all observers.' This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists.
William C. Keel (2007). The Road to Galaxy Formation (2nd ed.). Springer-Praxis. p. 2."

You do understand how that is a principle like an assumption or axiom and how it is philosophy and not science.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
That's extremelly vague. If I understand you correctly, you found out God exists and then, to your suprise, you realised the He would be invovled in our universe in some vague capacity. What do you mean by "exist" in that context?



How did you found out He exists?
We don't know from scripture anyway much about details of how God interacts with our Universe (our physics). (In fact, it has no details of physics nor any even basic science, nor any other ordinary knowledge area, not farming, not sailing, not astronomy -- none of the above. It's entirely about living life here well by certain principles, and about our souls and relationship with God.) I don't have much speculations about God in relation to our Universe, except of course merely the implication that Him existing means He will affect it in ways He chooses to. Here's a speculation though (I have more than only zero) -- perhaps He screened the asteroids that were going to hit Earth after life began, and chose to let some through and others He deflected. Just a speculation. (in case you wanted one) Of course it's vastly interesting how He has affected or modified and/or originated this Universe, how precisely, but of course such a subject would not be given in scripture, which is about faith, not physics.

To the last question: slowly, by repeated testing of the things Christ said about how to live, starting with the most basic one of "love your neighbor as yourself" where I took it to mean all your neighbors (instead of selected or screened ones), and to actually try to love them as if myself. Can be challenging in those first step moments. Extremely rewarding tho. I thought I was only lucky, so I kept testing that one over and over in new ways, trying to see an exception to it being the best course of action. Didn't find an exception, even in several neighborhoods over many years. This made me curious to try out more of what he said to do.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
From the objective perspective that there is objective evidence to support the existence of God or Gods, there is no evidence that could conclude that our physical existence would be different whether God or Gods exist or not.

I believe in the 'Source' that many call God(s), but the physical existence exists naturally as it is. God Created using the natural methods that science discovers and describes as natural.

Our physical existence is like looking into the mirror and seeing God's attributes as the Creator.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Can you spot your own first person subjectivity? And how you are not objective? If science it about testing and not taking for granted, then philosophy can be used to test the limit of science and explain how it is that all scientific knowledge is axiomatic and conditional.

I agree with you that scientific knowledge is axiomatic and conditional. It rests indeed in some assumptions since there can't be and might not be anything like "Truth".

You do understand how that is a principle like an assumption or axiom and how it is philosophy and not science.

There is no hard barrier between science and philosophy. All sciences derive from philosophy and all philosophies are informed by scientific knowledge. This axiom is also understood to be informed by the fact that, indeed, the observable universe is predictable and possible to explore since we have done so for thousands of years. This is what gives it it's "scientific character".
 
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Super Universe

Defender of God
and what makes you think that the alternative to God creating the Universe, is the Universe creating itself? You seem to base your main argument on a false dichotomy.

You also seem to assume a-priori that the universe, or all that exists, needs to be have been created. How-so?

ciao

- viole

What makes me think the alternative to God creating the universe is a universe creating itself? I know a universe cannot create itself.

I seem to assume that the unvierse needs to have been created? It does.

How so? Because if you start with 1 you only get 1. If you start with infinity you get O{IUJP(I* P(IK MN :LKSMN:KSEMNf;KM NDFK:MSDNJKDVN PIUsdbv and on and on and on and on...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you get if you are right and you prove there is no God? Even if you get a Nobel Prize you will still die and then what?

Nothing.

I think therefore I am. If I don't think then I am not is not an answer? Was the correct answer a math problem with a bunch of X's and Y's?

Your life is pretty good? A king owned a castle. He had a beautiful wife, many children, and many servants. He ate well. His kingdom was never challenged so he lived a long life. Then he died and what did he have?

Nothing.

I'm not sure why you see that as relevant.

A candle provides light and warmth. Then it goes out. It was still meaningful.

You're an atheists because you are not convinced by theist arguments? They don't convince me either. They use a book as evidence instead of passion.

Passion is a poor test of truth.

Theist desire to feel better is the problem? Human desire to feel better is the problem.

Yes, ego is a problem.

If everyone has messed up lives why did I only mention academics? Because they are not exempt, even though they think they are.

Just like theists!

The Merneptah Stele just mentions Israel, not the Exodus? Correct. I'm sure all the rest of the stories are not true. Do you know what the Akashic Record is?

I've heard of them. Not impressed.

I should prove God exists? Prove you are worthy.
Why should that matter if it is a valid proof?

I should define the concept of God? Prime Creator but that is not what you are looking for. Try this one, Space Matrix Generator. Math that.

Why should I think that such exists?

You could say my vision was a dream? I don't have to prove you wrong. You don't make universal policy. What would I get? A coupon for a reduced price McCoffee?

Truth doesn't depend on your desires or making you happy. Same goes for me.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You take for granted that you are not in a Boltzmann Brain universe. All you claim, relies on the following assumptions for which there is not evidence, proof, truth, logic and what not.
The universe is real and fair and you are not in a Boltzmann Brain universe and thus the universe is knowable.

In other words, you haven't solved epistemological solipsism.

Sure I have. If a statement about reality cannot be tested, then it is nonsense.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
Nothing.



Nothing.

I'm not sure why you see that as relevant.

A candle provides light and warmth. Then it goes out. It was still meaningful.



Passion is a poor test of truth.



Yes, ego is a problem.



Just like theists!



I've heard of them. Not impressed.


Why should that matter if it is a valid proof?



Why should I think that such exists?



Truth doesn't depend on your desires or making you happy. Same goes for me.


Isn't it more logical to believe in God and an afterlife so that if it is real then you have a chance to live forever? How is it more logical to deny something that could provide everlasting life? A lot of anger, that's why.

A candle provides light and warmth and then it goes out. So humans are like candles?

Passion is a poor test of truth? Is it? What if the truth you are trying to learn about is love? Do you get out your abacus?

Ego is the problem? Ego is a big problem regardless of whether you are atheist or theist.

Theists are not exempt from having messed up lives. Though they think they are.

You've heard of the Akashic Record and you are not impressed? You must have misunderstood, it's not an archeological find. The Akashic Record is the universal library of all knowledge available to any being in that universe. I know you don't believe in what I am saying, but, when you ascend you can verify anything that happened in a universe by checking the Akashic Record.

Why should you have to prove your worth before receiving universal information? You did not accept the information available so you want privileged information that you also will not accept so, what's the point? Here's the thing, in order to ascend you don't have to actually believe in God, you just have to be a very caring person. As you go through the universal training schools you will have to accept God because everything is built on God and heaven and Jesus and angels and ascended beings. It doesn't happen, but, in theory, if you learn the material but still do not believe in God you could ascend all the way to heaven and visually see God and still deny what you see is God. BUT, that never happens because the ascended beings won't let you ascend. They will reject you, not God. You're not going to get in to heaven and start trouble.

Why should you think that the Space Matrix Generator exists? Fine, let some other physicist figure it out. She might be a woman and she might be working on it right now.

Truth doesn't depend on my desires? It doesn't yet.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
No, thanks.
I have already gone further than I should have. I see no reason to believe there is any merit in what you are saying. I have merely given you the benefit of doubt, but it hasn't paid off.

Yeah, I'm bored too. Think I might go play a good game of chess.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What makes me think the alternative to God creating the universe is a universe creating itself? I know a universe cannot create itself.

And how about a universe (throughout space and time) simply existing? Not needing a cause at all (including not needing to cause itself)?

I seem to assume that the unvierse needs to have been created? It does.

And I claim it doesn't. In fact, I claim it *can't* have a cause because all causes are within the universe.

How so? Because if you start with 1 you only get 1. If you start with infinity you get O{IUJP(I* P(IK MN :LKSMN:KSEMNf;KM NDFK:MSDNJKDVN PIUsdbv and on and on and on and on...

And why do you assume this?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't it more logical to believe in God and an afterlife so that if it is real then you have a chance to live forever? How is it more logical to deny something that could provide everlasting life? A lot of anger, that's why.

No, it is more *comforting* to believe that, but far less *logical*. Belief is a matter of evidence and being convinced. That requires being skeptical, especially when the emotions are involved.

A candle provides light and warmth and then it goes out. So humans are like candles?

Yes. We provide light and warmth through learning and kindness. Then we die.

Passion is a poor test of truth? Is it? What if the truth you are trying to learn about is love? Do you get out your abacus?

Ego is the problem? Ego is a big problem regardless of whether you are atheist or theist.

Theists are not exempt from having messed up lives. Though they think they are.

You've heard of the Akashic Record and you are not impressed? You must have misunderstood, it's not an archeological find. The Akashic Record is the universal library of all knowledge available to any being in that universe. I know you don't believe in what I am saying, but, when you ascend you can verify anything that happened in a universe by checking the Akashic Record.

Seems like another one of those comforting myths to me.

Why should you have to prove your worth before receiving universal information? You did not accept the information available so you want privileged information that you also will not accept so, what's the point? Here's the thing, in order to ascend you don't have to actually believe in God, you just have to be a very caring person. As you go through the universal training schools you will have to accept God because everything is built on God and heaven and Jesus and angels and ascended beings. It doesn't happen, but, in theory, if you learn the material but still do not believe in God you could ascend all the way to heaven and visually see God and still deny what you see is God. BUT, that never happens because the ascended beings won't let you ascend. They will reject you, not God. You're not going to get in to heaven and start trouble.

Nice theory you have there. Any evidence it is correct?

Why should you think that the Space Matrix Generator exists? Fine, let some other physicist figure it out. She might be a woman and she might be working on it right now.

OK.

Truth doesn't depend on my desires? It doesn't yet.

OK
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
And how about a universe (throughout space and time) simply existing? Not needing a cause at all (including not needing to cause itself)?



And I claim it doesn't. In fact, I claim it *can't* have a cause because all causes are within the universe.



And why do you assume this?

A universe that has always existed? The only way to get the universe is with God.

All causes are within the universe? All causes in the universe are within the universe. Causes outside the universe are not in the universe. This is the matrix. Neo leaves the matrix and realizes there's a whole lot more.

Why do I assume that 1 cannot turn into 2 and 3 and 4 and that you have to start with an infinity? Things are increasing at a tremendous rate, not staying the same.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
A universe that has always existed? The only way to get the universe is with God.

Depends on what you mean by 'always existed'. I am saying that whenever there has been time, the universe has existed. There was never a time when it did not. And I am allowing for the possibility that time is finite.

And, since all causality is within the universe (and time), that means the universe itself is uncaused: it simply exists. No God required.

All causes are within the universe? All causes in the universe are within the universe. Causes outside the universe are not in the universe. This is the matrix. Neo leaves the matrix and realizes there's a whole lot more.

Show me one cause outside of the universe.

Why do I assume that 1 cannot turn into 2 and 3 and 4 and that you have to start with an infinity? Things are increasing at a tremendous rate, not staying the same.

Sorry, I cannot parse this. Could you restate it?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Why? Love is a subjective emotion and experience, and is very important for individuals to be successful in the survival of their genes through many generations. There is no reason why love could not be a product of evolution by natural selection.
Lust is sufficient.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I agree with you that scientific knowledge is axiomatic and conditional. It rests indeed in some assumptions since there can't be and might not be anything like "Truth".

Correct, the notion of knowledge as JTB doesn't work. Justification runs in to Agrippa's and truth is in effect subjective. Just like God, people can't agree on what truth is. Truth | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

In more broad terms, this part:
Philosophy, (from Greek, by way of Latin, philosophia, “love of wisdom”) the rational, abstract, and methodical consideration of reality as a whole or of fundamental dimensions of human existence and experience.
philosophy | Definition, Systems, Fields, Schools, & Biographies
- failed. There is no coherent, rational, abstract, and methodical method to describe reality as a whole with JTB knowledge.
Hence when you look closer and you did it yourself, all humans in effect go first person subjective, when asked to justified their individual world view. I do it and you did it. You used useful, but when you test how useful works, it is always useful to somebody based on a subjective standard.

There is no hard barrier between science and philosophy. All sciences derive from philosophy and all philosophies are informed by scientific knowledge. This axiom is also understood to be informed by the fact that, indeed, the observable universe is predictable and possible to explore since we have done so for thousands of years. This is what gives it it's "scientific character".

That is a contradiction to how it comes that it is a principle. It is not a fact, because it can't be test using science and thus it is a principle.
I like how you apparently know that, since you did this: "scientific character".

Here again are the axioms that underlies science as a belief system.
The universe is natural.
The universe is fair.
The universe is knowable.

As for testing, everything you test as a human is not objective. You in effect subjectively test, what works for you. But becomes that is build as sort of automatic in an evolutionary and psychological sense, some people don't notice that they do it. It comes natural and they take it for granted without noticing that they do it subjectively.

So for a Boltzmann Brain universe and this: " The Boltzmann Brain universe is used as a thought experiment to measure the quality of theoretical models" please site evidence for that. That is not how I understand it, but I am willing to be corrected.
So here is the version of a BB universe I use. The universe in it self is enough space, an object with a power source and a
computer on it and on that computer is you running as a subprogram and the computer simulates the rest of the universe as you experience it to you.
You can't test that because you can't get outside the universe and as for the different versions in theoretical physics of a BB none of them can be tested.
BTW what is the objective, measurable scientific quality used to measure and test BB? There is none, because the probability of being a BB shifts with what you take for granted in a given model. In short there is no way to test the different model against each other using observation, because it is theoretical physics.
 
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