Theists who believe in freewill?

[URAVIP2ME]

Bahai faith has facts which justify it to Bahais and to no others.

I noticed that you also posted that Hinduism is a No nonsense philosophy.
When un-faithful Jews began mixing with Greek philosophy that introduced nonsense to their religious beliefs.
Some of that mixed Greek philosophical thinking around in the first century still has influence today in the religious world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Prior to mixing Greek philosophy in Judaism by un-faithful Jews (as you say), even the faithful Jews added/reacted to Mesopotamian and Central Asian Zoroastrian beliefs (I write only what I have read). The true ancient Jews worshiped many Gods. Moses changed it by bringing in monotheism. He showed a tablet as a proof which he later smashed (Was it clay or stone?).

"Yahwism was essentially polytheistic, with a plethora of gods and goddesses. Heading the pantheon was Yahweh, the national god of the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah, with his consort, the goddess Asherah, and second-tier gods and goddesses such as Baal, Shamash, Yarikh, Mot, and Astarte, each of whom had their own priests and prophets and numbered royalty among their devotees."

Yahwism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[wellwisher]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

If you look at nature, both physical nature; planets and stars, and the living nature; life and consciousness, these are all naturally integrated within themselves and with each other. Human free will is based on our choice to be natural or unnatural. The lion, the plant or the planet, does not have a choice to be unnatural, since they are natural.

Most humans may not even know what natural human instincts are, thereby opening the option to be different, without even knowing why. Our limited understanding, offers additional choices beyond just natural. Will and choice is less about advancement and more about a regression.

Say nature is integrated in 3-D; spatial integration. Humans, via education and the ego, know the world, based on cause and affect, which only has two axis; cause=X and affect=Y. Reason lacks full understanding of the needed z-axis that would make our thoughts spatially integrated, into 3-D. By default, cause and affect, alone, can never help you make integrated choices, since you will still lack the 3rd axis. Science breaks itself down into rational specialties, which cannot integrated of all science into 3-D.

As a math analogy, picture a 3-D ball; tennis ball. We can approximate this 3-D ball, with a large number of 2-D circles; rational circles; (x=cause, y=affect), each with a common center, but all at different angles. This is similar to science as well as to human language. There are 7100 different languages of the world, all describing the very same things, with each language taking a different audio association angle; cause and affect, in terms of sounds and noises.

There is no naturally occurring human language that is 3-D, since they are all 2-D rational circles, based on subjective audio 2-D cause and affect. This departure from 3-D and natural instinct is where will and choice appear by default, with the 3-D and tour 2-D approximation schema; diversity, common to all aspects of social life.

We have many different rational choices, that all appear to reach the same common center of the 3-D ball. Each political party or each religion appears to be the universal truth; 3-D, via the common 3-D center. Full 3-D, is the sum of all the 2-D circles, since only that comes close to fully describes the natural 3-D.

Will and choice has to do with how the brain works. The natural brain; symbolized by Adam and Eve, descended from 3-D; instinct, to 2-D; Knowledge of good=x and evil=y is 2-D. Modern humans are not yet able to return fully to 3-D, since they tend to lose track of the 3-D forest, because of the diversity of 2-D trees; 2-D choices with the common center. One needs to learn to focus on the center point of any 2-D circle, since all are connect to 3-D, only at that point; intuition and faith is the z-axis.

This is not rational since it is not limited to 2-D; cause and affect, but starts to sense 3-D; natural human instinct common to all. We differ in 2-D. I have no will or choice to define myself by my 2-D surface shell, even of it touches 3-D at a single point. Diversity is regressive since it moves away from 3-D via will and choice. That is more of a 2-D bias to help one differentiate oneself; your slope on the curve of life. How we all are one is far more advanced; integration from A to B.

 

[SDavis]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

According to scripture it's God's will that all be saved but..... All will not be saved.

According to scripture is God's will that man is obedient to his will but..... I'm in charge of men are a rebellious bunch.

According to scripture it's God's will that mankind do unto others as they would have others do unto them but..... Man will do evil acts to you but you bet not do it to him.

If there is predestination - that is determined because God already knows what one will and won't do - he already knows who will choose him/his way - who will love him and not because he controlled them.

 

[blü 2]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

Freewill doesn't exist in material terms, where the brain is a complex biomechanism, and no one can be distinguished from their brain/body or make decisions independently of their brain's evolved decision-making procedures.

And if God is omnscient and omnipotent then freewill doesn't exist in theological terms either, since before God made the universe [he] already perfectly knew, hence intended and approved, everything that has ever happened and will ever happen in the universe ─ including the wording of this post I'm typing, and the typing errors I correct as I go along.

 

[osgart]

Freewill doesn't exist in material terms, where the brain is a complex biomechanism, and no one can be distinguished from their brain/body or make decisions independently of their brain's evolved decision-making procedures.

And if God is omnscient and omnipotent then freewill doesn't exist in theological terms either, since before God made the universe [he] already perfectly knew, hence intended and approved, everything that has ever happened and will ever happen in the universe ─ including the wording of this post I'm typing, and the typing errors I correct as I go along.

Either that or mankind is hopelessly and accurately predictable to God. Or God sees all possible futures. Or both.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I noticed that you also posted that Hinduism is a No nonsense philosophy.

There is a lot of nonsense in Hinduism too. What my signature states is that "Advaita Hinduism (non-duality) is a no-nonsense philosophy."
Hinduism had nothing to do with Greek philosophy.

 

[wellwisher]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

Free will and choice is connected to the human brain having two centers of consciousness; one for the conscious mind and the other for the unconscious mind, respectively.

The center of the unconscious mind is the inner self. The inner self is based on human DNA; natural operating system of the brain. The center of the conscious mind is the ego, which is more a function of external education; social mask. We have internal and external sources of brain data for consciousness. For example, we might feel hungry. The natural animal; inner instinct, is triggered by the natural control system and will urge us to seek food and eat. Humans, via the ego's will and choice, can postpone eating until lunch. This complements the inner self urge to eat, while also allowing for the needs of culture; on the job. This is how will and choice can become contrary in time, but complementary in goal, to the inner self.

Many soldiers, will have a problem with killing; first kill, because killing is not natural; inner self resistance. But the cultural superego; learned behavior in boot camp, may require killing the enemy or being killed. This willful action, by the ego, can leave some soldiers free floating; battle fatigue, since their ego will and choice, against the inner self, harmed something inside them, that inner self needs the ego to address. There are a lot of veteran homeless due to ego will and choices; duty connected conflict with their inner self.

In terms of God and free will, since the inner self is the natural center of the brain, connected to nature and the evolution of consciousness, the inner self is symbolically connected to God. The ego by being a secondary center that is more of a function of externally learned and conditioned behavior, the ego is more connected to will and choice. The ego can help the inner self evolve; extending natural instinct, or it can also choose to de-evolve the inner self, with learned unnatural instinct.

Religions systems are like parents, whose life experiences are taught to the ego of the child, to help them make the best choices, when they are at the crossroads of life. But since children and ego need to live and learn, on their own, to acquire this wisdom, will and choice are allowed, by God, as long as the ego eventually finds the natural curve; inner self. Old age has a way of helping us find the inner self since will and choice is not as easy with an old body.

Life, will and choice, is similar to a race up the mountain, with the competitors able to take any path; choice, leading to that one flag at the very top; inner self. There are many religions, since many paths for will and choice, can reach the top. The various key leaders of the many religions show the path up the mountain to inner self actualization; part of natural determinism.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

We as humans do not compare to God Almighty. God knows the future and can change it if He wills. To us our future is set and we can't change it because we are living on a time line of past, present, and future. To state that God offers His grace to everyone only to be rejected is to place Him in the same position as a human. Even as humans we can understand that because of His knowledge , He offers His grace to those who will accept it. I just can't see God offering His grace to those He knows will not accept it. What is being offered and accepted or rejected? We know that in the Old Testament, this undeserved favor was materialistic in nature. In the New Testament, the undeserved favor is spiritual and involves a state of being. To receive this undeserved favor, you have to be born again by the will of God.
John 1: 13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The future for humanity is damnation. Jesus' first sermon after being baptized with the Holy Spirit was for sinners to repent, but it is the Father who baptizes by granting the state of being of repentance to such a degree that the sinner turns to Him for forgiveness. Through preaching, the sinner receives the Gospel of Jesus for the remission of sins committed and gets baptized in the name of the Son when He believes. The sinner then gets baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit when the sinner is perfected by receiving the portal through which the Father and Son can reside in the sinner to fill him with the love necessary to be able to obey the Spirit of the Law which is the bases for the Letter of the Law. When you motivation for living is to love and obey the Father's will and to love others as you love yourself, you will have attained a perfect heart which is what the Father judges in order to get to heaven.
1 Chron 29: 17 I know also, my God, that thou testest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and shunned evil. Job was perfect because he had a perfect heart and he was upright because he followed his perfect heart.

2 Tim 3: 16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works. It is scripture that reveals how the man of God can be made perfect. Trusting in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins does not make you perfect because you still sin and therefore are still a sinner. God judges the heart and a perfect heart is what is required to enter heaven. Having knowledge and believing in Jesus' death for the remission of sins is enough to get your sins forgiven, but to get perfected there needs to be a change of heart. That is what being born again and becoming a new creature is all about.
God does not micromanage all of the unsaved, just the ones that will affect the ones that will be saved. Those that are not saved need to stop blaming others and blame themselves. That is how it all starts, by recognizing that they are sinners, repent of sins committed, and then pray to God the Father for forgiveness. It's so simple that many intelligent people don't get it.

 

[stvdv]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

Free Will does exist
Most people don't have it
Nor know how to acquire Free Will

 

[MonkeyFire]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

Free will isn’t a problem to angels. Why should God control others if we are benevolent.

 

[wellwisher]

Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

There is a thing called "sin" where choices in many life situations have to made; wide range of cross road possibilities. Since there is also the concepts of Heaven and Hell, which are each connected to the sum of our choices; good or evil, respectively, then free will has to exist to justify each final outcome.

Determinism enters the equation in terms of the final cause and effect between the sum of our free will choices, and the place you end up. If the entire process lacked free will, in terms of the details, God would not have set these conditions, for the deterministic sum of a lifetime of free will choices. Jesus added one more choice to this lifetime of choices, which is to repent; forgiveness of sins, allowing one to shift the data curve; extra layer of determinism or cause and effect, based on will power and choice, needed to engage the data shifting loophole. If you do nothing, the other determinism applies.

This religious will and determinism is similar to going to college with the goal of graduating with honors to get a good job. There is a deterministic cause and effect between how we budget our time and our final GPA, that the recruiters look for, for the best jobs. However, we have choices in terms of how we will budget out time, day to day. We do not have to study all the time, or even at all, on any given day. We can go to the fraternity parties on weekends to get the full college experience. As long as the sum of our choices, add up to us being in the best position to get the best job, we still meet the goal of the determinism; this assumes no DEI determinism regardless of good or bad choices.

If our fate was sealed or pre-determined in advance, then being true to this inevitable fate would follow God's will no matter what we do. There would be no sin. The bullet that is shot from a gun destined to go from point A to point B, that breaks a window along the way, it is not the fault of the bullet, but is the will of the shooter.

This is closer to the Atheist religion. They believe there is nothing but inevitable death no matter what you do or do not do. One cannot control the fate of this inevitable ending, even with will power. Lack of will is an Atheism projection due to their final death determinism philosophy, that cannot be undone with any will and choices; eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There is a thing called "sin"

Only for those willing to believe that there is.

Determinism enters the equation in terms of the final cause and effect between the sum of our free will choices

That's an incoherent comment; it's internally self-contradictory. If the universe is deterministic, there is no free will. If free will exists, then some future events remain undetermined.

Jesus added one more choice to this lifetime of choices, which is to repent

Repenting isn't about Jesus. When an atheistic humanist repents, he doesn't ask forgiveness from a god. He learns to forgive himself for some choice for which he feels remorse, and if possible, expresses that remorse and seeks forgiveness from his victim - not from gods.

As alluded, to repent (verb) is to feel and possibly to express remorse for one's actions. A penitent (noun) is somebody who has done this.

Moreover, penitentiaries are named such because it was hoped they would be places where people feel remorse for their actions and rehabilitate themselves.

And note that remorse is more than regret. Regret need not include remorse. I'm sure that Trump regrets some of his choices today, but feels no remorse, meaning that he hasn't and never will repent of them.

the Atheist religion

Atheists are people that have transcended god beliefs and religions and are comfortable living without them. As with sin and the fear of hell, we leave that to the believers.

They believe there is nothing but inevitable death no matter what you do or do not do.

No, we believe that there is insufficient evidence to assume that there is consciousness after death and accept the very real possibility that death extinguishes an individual consciousness. And most of us are fine with that thought. We don't suffer the existential angst of the believer who has never had to or learned to accept that possibility - you know, the kind of person who calls that hope and atheists hopeless and sees that as a good thing for the believer and an undesirable one for the unbeliever. There is no sense of hopelessness when one accepts that death may be the end. It's detachment. Those who are so afraid of death being the end that they need to hope that there is an afterlife to cope with their mortality are prisoners to that fear. Detachment from that is liberating.

One cannot control the fate of this inevitable ending, even with will power.

Correct, but that applies to the faithful as well.

eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die.

The attitude is better expressed as making sure to take time to experience all that life has to offer while we can. That's obviously good advice. Denying oneself based in religious beliefs is not. Once I left Christianity and stopped going to churches, studying the Bible, praying, and tithing, I had more time and money to experience life, which for us was travel, attending concerts, visiting restaurants, and collecting fine art, all of which would be considered selfish and hedonistic in my former world, as if I owed the church anything or tasting what life had to offer was sinful. As I said, I've left that kind of thinking to others, and have no regrets. Au contraire.

One of the benefits of giving up religion and repurposing my time and modifying my goals and values was that I returned to studying electric guitar, a love of mine that I gave up once I found Jesus. I had been spending about four hours a workday and ten hours a weekend day practicing, but that ended when I became a Christian.

Once I left the religion, I took it up again, and became an accomplished guitarist with years of live performances in bands I formed. We recorded much of that, and eventually made YouTubes with stock footage to watch while listening to the music, which gives us a great sense of satisfaction and beauty today (my wife was the bass player). This was a taste of life not really available to me until I repurposed my time.

Here we are doing the song that made me want to play guitar. When I first heard this one, I thought how wonderful it must be to be able to sing such beautiful melodies with one's hands. This is what I gave up being with Jesus, and what I returned to when that chapter ended, which my former pastor surely would have disapproved of and called selfish:

How about you? If you're wrong about gods and afterlives, have the sacrifices you made in the service of those beliefs been a good choice anyway, or would you wish you had tasted more of the apple others have convinced you is forbidden?

 

[Trailblazer]

How about you? If you're wrong about gods and afterlives, have the sacrifices you made in the service of those beliefs been a good choice anyway, or would you wish you had tasted more of the apple others have convinced you is forbidden?

How about you? If you're wrong about God and an afterlife, would the apples you tasted of have been a good choice, or would you wish you had sacrificed those apples for a higher purpose?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

How about you? If you're wrong about God and an afterlife, would the apples you tasted of have been a good choice, or would you wish you had sacrificed those apples for a higher purpose?

Do you mean the Christian god? That one can be ruled out by its description.

Either way, my answer to you is yes, I think I've made the right choice disregarding gods and religions and pursuing a different kind of life even if gods and an afterlife exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mean the Christian god? That one can be ruled out by its description.

No, I mean the one true God. There is no Christian God. Christians don't have a God of their own.

Either way, my answer to you is yes, I think I've made the right choice disregarding gods and religions and pursuing a different kind of life even if gods and an afterlife exist.

We all have to make our own choices about God and religion based upon our own desires and preferences and the conclusions we have come to.
None of us will really know the consequences of our choices until we die.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

We all have to make our own choices about God and religion based upon our own desires and preferences and the conclusions we have come to. None of us will really know the consequences of our choices until we die.

Agreed, except for the part about knowing things after death. That's also one of the things that nobody knows about.

I mean the one true God.

You're assuming that gods exist, and just one of them. Other than the universe itself, which may be one of countless numbers of universes, nothing else that I can think of isn't just one of many. If one god can exist by whatever means it came to be, there ought to be more that exist for the same reason, assuming that one of them did not destroy the others.

Christians don't have a God of their own.

THEY think they do. Their god sent Jesus to be tortured for them and it condemns the souls that won't pay it fealty to eternal suffering. I don't think any other god that people have claimed exists fits that description.

 

[Trailblazer]

Agreed, except for the part about knowing things after death. That's also one of the things that nobody knows about.

That's true. We may know something if there is an afterlife, or we may not know anything, if we cease to exist at death.

You're assuming that gods exist, and just one of them. Other than the universe itself, which may be one of countless numbers of universes, nothing else that I can think of isn't just one of many. If one god can exist by whatever means it came to be, there ought to be more that exist for the same reason, assuming that one of them did not destroy the others.

I do not assume that gods exist since I do not believe that gods (plural) exist. I believe (not assume) that one God exists.

Since I believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing there would be no reason for more than one God to exists, so on the basis of logic as well as scripture, I do not believe there is more than one true God.

THEY think they do.

I had that in my post but I deleted it at the last minute.
I had written: Christians don't have a God of their own, even though they think they do.

Their god sent Jesus to be tortured for them and it condemns the souls that won't pay it fealty to eternal suffering. I don't think any other god that people have claimed exists fits that description.

Certainly the God I believe in does not fit that description. That s not even the God of the Bible, it is the man-made god of Christian dogma.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe (not assume) that one God exists.

I don't see a difference there.

Since I believe that God is all-powerful and all-knowing there would be no reason for more than one God to exists

There's also no reason for any god to exist. Of for a god to be all-knowing or all-powerful. Those are all assumptions, or as you call it, your belief.

Certainly the God I believe in does not fit that description. That is not even the God of the Bible, it is the man-made god of Christian dogma.

It describes the Christian god, which was my point. That god is different from the god you believe in. It's different from the Hebrew and Muslim gods as well, which are all different from one another. None of the other gods sent Jesus, for example.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see a difference there.

A belief is not an assumption and that is why there are two words.

An “Assumption” is where you believe something to be true, but it is yet unproven while a “belief” is something you are certain is true. However, our beliefs may, in fact, be assumptions that are in the end false. Jun 11, 2021

Assumption vs. Belief – Why You Need To Know The Difference

There's also no reason for any god to exist. Of for a god to be all-knowing or all-powerful. Those are all assumptions, or as you call it, your belief.

God does not need a reason to exist, God either exists or not.
The reason I believe that God exists and is all-knowing and all-powerful is because that was revealed by Baha'u'llah. The Bible confirms that belief.

It describes the Christian god, which was my point. That god is different from the god you believe in. It's different from the Hebrew and Muslim gods as well, which are all different from one another. None of the other gods sent Jesus, for example.

The God is not different, only the beliefs about that God are different. Same God, different beliefs.

The one true God sent Jesus. Christians , Muslims, and Baha'is all believe that, but Jews don't. Christians and Muslims comprise the majority of the human population. Jews number only 14 million after many thousands of years, Baha'is number 7 million after only 160 years. So it seems to me that the Jews got it wrong, and that is not ad populum, it's just common sense.