Theists who believe in freewill?

[Trailblazer]

It would seem that God has no objectives in creating this universe, then? Other than watching us choose?

Yes, as I see it, humans are kind of like the chess pieces moving around on God's chess board, the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there is God's will, and there is our will. And that the only true freedom we can ever know, comes when we align our will to God's. Because only then, are we liberated from the tyranny of our own desires.

I agree, although we cannot always know what God's will for us is, we can only guess what it might be based upon scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I always assumed entertainment.

at our expense, and God is not paying the cable bill.

 

[Trailblazer]

Living your life the way you want to seldom leads to a happy ending?

Imo, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. It depends upon what you want to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

The future is already set. As well as the past.
So, what do you mean?

Ciao

- viole

The past and the future are known by God.
The past is set since it already happened but the future is not set since it has not happened yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

God does not have a "plan" and that is a misrepresentation of authority.

The plan is that humans will produce and harness so much energy that we'll eventually create habitats and lifeforms on other planets. We'll take planets that have too much energy on them (like Venus) and transfer that energy to planets with not enough energy on them (like Mars), essentially terraforming other planets to be more similar to Earth. We will send then send a myriad of different animals to live on these planets.

Essentially our role is to be God's plan.

Humans might do that in this solar system....

Baha'u'llah wrote that there is already life in other worlds, so there must also be habitat.
However, these worlds that have life on them are not necessarily planets within our solar system.
Only God knows but it is something to ponder on.

“Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise. Do thou meditate on that which We have revealed unto thee, that thou mayest discover the purpose of God, thy Lord, and the Lord of all worlds. In these words the mysteries of Divine Wisdom have been treasured.” Gleanings, pp. 152-153

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Humans might do that in this solar system....

Baha'u'llah wrote that there is already life in other worlds, so there must also be habitat.
However, these worlds that have life on them are not necessarily planets within our solar system.

Only God knows but it is something to ponder on.

Oh, I do believe there's life on other planets, just not intelligent life such as us. I'm a firm believer of dinosaurs that inhabit many Earth-like planets, as they themselves used to live on Earth for over 100 million years. Humans, on the other hand, have lived in here less than 200,000 years. If we follow the science we can do some basic extrapolating and realize that if there is life on other planets, most likely it isn't human, nor intelligent.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find plans can often be changed, but God's purpose for Earth is more than a plan, not a change of mind.
God's purpose is the same as found at Genesis 1:28 to populate the Earth until it is populated (Not over populated)
Expand Eden until the whole Earth is a beautiful paradisical global garden as Eden was a blueprint sample.
Through Jesus, God's purpose is to bring an end to 'enemy death' on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

I agree that God's purpose for Earth is more than a plan, nor a change of mind.
God's purpose is not really a plan at all, it is a purpose that God has had in mind from the very beginning.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

 

[Trailblazer]

The loss is demonstrated by one simple observation.

If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then that is the proof of the loss of those that chose not pursue. (Applicable to all Prophets, Messengers, Manifestations)

If Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be it would definitely be a loss not to know that.
It would be the biggest loss anyone could ever experience, the biggest loss of all time.
I can only say I am grateful not to have to experience such a loss.

 

[Trailblazer]

Seems God is constantly trying to fix poor design choices.

It's more like God is trying to offer new design choices, but most people prefer the old design choices, so here we are.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the case of your religious belief we critical thinkers are horses that have access to plenty of clean water, and what you want to present to us can't be determined to actually be water. All we have is you promising that your water is better, but the samples you offer us are brown and murky. We are suspicious. Do we need anyone offering their kind of murky water? No.

What Baha'is offer is the Water of Life. We believe our water is better, you believe your water is better.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Jesus offered the Water of Life 2,000 years ago.
History repeats itself. Could it be that God is trying to tell us something?

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Revelation 22:1-2 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we follow the science we can do some basic extrapolating and realize that if there is life on other planets, most likely it isn't human, nor intelligent.

How can we know what lies beyond our solar system?
What reason do you have to think it is not intelligent? That life form could be more intelligent than humans.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

It's more like God is trying to offer new design choices, but most people prefer the old design choices, so here we are.

I must admit that I find Baha'u'llah forbidding monasticism in his religion was a poor decision. There is so much wisdom and knowledge to delve deep into Baha'u'llah's, Abdul Baha', Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice's writings and decisions that if the Baha'i Faith had clergy to offer spiritual wisdom and guidance, it could be a beacon of hope and light that many people need. In fact, if I were not already part of Earthseed, and the Baha'i Faith had its own clergy, I might have considered joining in part of it myself. The Ruhi Institution does a really poor job at effectively being the clergy of the Baha'i Faith and it could, and should be done better than that.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

How can we know what lies beyond our solar system?
What reason do you have to think it is not intelligent? That life form could be more intelligent than humans.

If that were the case then chances are wouldn't they have already come here and there would be ample amounts of evidence of such? There's a new institution called SETI trying to find evidence of this and still have come up with nothing - so far - at least. I'm not saying it's impossible but highly unlikely.

 

[Trailblazer]

I must admit that I find Baha'u'llah forbidding monasticism in his religion was a poor decision. There is so much wisdom and knowledge to delve deep into Baha'u'llah's, Abdul Baha', Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice's writings and decisions that if the Baha'i Faith had clergy to offer spiritual wisdom and guidance, it could be a beacon of hope and light that many people need. In fact, if I were not already part of Earthseed, and the Baha'i Faith had its own clergy, I might have considered joining in part of it myself. The Ruhi Institution does a really poor job at effectively being the clergy of the Baha'i Faith and it could, and should be done better than that.

The UHJ, the NSA, and the LSA are kind of like clergy in the sense that they there to guide the individual Baha'is and help them understand and apply the Baha'i Writings if necessary.

The Ruhi classes are only to educate the Baha'is on what is in the Writings, and they are often offered to new believers. I never attended any of them myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

If that were the case then chances are wouldn't they have already come here and there would be ample amounts of evidence of such? There's a new institution called SETI trying to find evidence of this and still have come up with nothing - so far - at least. I'm not saying it's impossible but highly unlikely.

They may or may not come here, depending upon whether they had a reason to do so.
Although it is interesting to think about, I try not to conjecture about things I don't know.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

The UHJ, the NSA, and the LSA are kind of like clergy in the sense that they there to guide the individual Baha'is and help them understand and apply the Baha'i Writings if necessary.

The Ruhi classes are only to educate the Baha'is on what is in the Writings, and they are often offered to new believers. I never attended any of them myself.

I Google'd monasticism and found that it is a very specific type of clergy, a type of clergy that devotes his or her life to spiritual pursuits. As I understand it with the UHJ, the NSA and the LSA, they are sort-of like clergy, but have lives and jobs outside the Baha'i Faith. In fact, Baha'u'llah once said that performing secular work is an act of praying, and encourages all Baha'is to do such. So I fully understand why Baha'u'llah did it. It's just the way he structured his religion makes it difficult to meet up with other Baha'is, as they often meet in anywhere but a church, ironically enough. I've looked at the Ruhi classes. They are a poor representation of your religion and could easily be dissected and dissembled by anyone who is remotely spiritual or religious. When I listen to Baha'u'llah I feel like I have a personal connection with a God-loving man, when I looked into the Ruhi classes, it felt like they were telling me things just for the sake of telling me those things. I wasn't impressed.

 

[Trailblazer]

I Google'd monasticism and found that it is a very specific type of clergy, a type of clergy that devotes his or her life to spiritual pursuits. As I understand it with the UHJ, the NSA and the LSA, they are sort-of like clergy, but have lives and jobs outside the Baha'i Faith. In fact, Baha'u'llah once said that performing secular work is an act of praying, and encourages all Baha'is to do such. So I fully understand why Baha'u'llah did it. It's just the way he structured his religion makes it difficult to meet up with other Baha'is, as they often meet in anywhere but a church, ironically enough. I've looked at the Ruhi classes. They are a poor representation of your religion and could easily be dissected and dissembled by anyone who is remotely spiritual or religious. When I listen to Baha'u'llah I feel like I have a personal connection with a God-loving man, when I looked into the Ruhi classes, it felt like they were telling me things just for the sake of telling me those things. I wasn't impressed.

What Baha'u'llah forbid was not monasticism, it was asceticism. They are similar but the reason for the prohibition in the Baha'i Faith is not exactly the same as for Christianity.

Asceticism - Bahai9

I understand what you are saying about meeting other Baha'is because I am having that problem myself. Before Covid, at least Baha'is met at a home for Feast every 19 days, but now the Feast is on Zoom. They might also have a few people meeting at a home, I haven't checked into that recently. They are starting to resume in-person activities in my community. In large Baha'i communities the Baha'is have a Baha'i center which is a central meeting place like a church.

I was never impressed with the Ruhi classes either. I learn better by reading the Writings by myself. Back in 1970 when I fist became a Baha'i, all we had were the books, and I read all of them that were published at that time, but now much more has been translated into English and it is all online in the Baha'i Reference Library.

 

[F1fan]

What Baha'is offer is the Water of Life. We believe our water is better, you believe your water is better.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Jesus offered the Water of Life 2,000 years ago.
History repeats itself. Could it be that God is trying to tell us something?

John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’” But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Revelation 22:1-2 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Your "water" is religious dogma, and not fact-based. My "water" is truth and clarity that relis on facts and reason. Your preferrence offers very little to me, and to believe would require suspending critical thinking.

How can we know what lies beyond our solar system?

Experts in various sciences. It certainly isn't religious folks relying on clarvoyance, and offer claims about the universe as if earth is the center of it.

What reason do you have to think it is not intelligent? That life form could be more intelligent than humans.

That intelligence can emerge in animals does not mean that the universe functions as an intelligence itself. This is a typical presumption of many religious traditions. The basis for this presumption is to create some plausible basis for any of the many creator gods. There is no factual basis for any of this. Realize that some of the consequences of this "intelligence" is borth defects and cancers. How about a planet that includes deadly bacteria and virus? No theist has been able to exlpain what is intelligent about those biological quirks that harm humans, a supposedly "special" species.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your "water" is religious dogma, and not fact-based. My "water" is truth and clarity that relis on facts and reason. Your preferrence offers very little to me, and to believe would require suspending critical thinking.

My water confers eternal life. Yours doesn't. That is why I prefer my water to your water.
Reason tells me to prefer my water to your water, since eternal life trumps anything your facts can offer me.