• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Theists who believe in freewill?

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
To what degree does fate extend in your opinion?
To everything, but there is a difference in scope. Big things, cosmological levels, those are way outside of our scope and effect. "Putting stuff out in the universe" is, IMO, bunk. Yet our actions write our own fates, and put us on paths that are ever-changing depending on those actions.

Some things on a personal level are outside of our control, like our genetics or the actions of others. Sometimes we don't have a "choice", and are forced into an action or course. But this still doesn't eliminate our free will, as we are still able to make choices of our own will elsewhere.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?

Not according to Hinduism. While he directs the course of the universe, he doesn't direct the soul. Our free will and karma play out and direct this. The Srimad Bhagavatam says, however, that not a blade of grass blows in the wind without the knowledge and say so of God. However, I saw nothing that says this extends to human or animal behavior. We are subject to our free will and karma, though God knows everything that is happening and will happen.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It might or might not matter. In the same way it matters if gravity is the warping of spacetime or created by gravitons - in the end the models only help us understand how it functions, but it has little significance in actually being “correct” in a literal way.

To me, that is not mattering. As you note, metaphysical models need do no more than connect observations to accurate predictions. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post that explains what I mean:

One of the conclusions I was able to reach is that it doesn't matter what lies beyond experience, just that one be able to anticipate it. That is, if I stick my finger into a flame, I can reliably expect to feel the pain of fire. We assume that the finger and the flame exist as we perceive them, as if we were looking through a window when we look out on the world.

But suppose you somehow could know for an iron-clad fact that you were only a disembodied mind living an illusion. All these years, whenever you stuck what you thought was your finger into what looked like a flame, you felt the pain of fire. Now you know that that was an illusion - there is no fire or finger, just the illusion of same - so, you do what you used to do as a test, and it burns anyway as it always did before.

The answers to these metaphysical questions aren't really useful after all. You were on the way to the kitchen to make a margarita when you discovered this new reality. What do you do differently now that you have that knowledge? Nothing, once done freaking out because you don't have a body. So what do you do differently with this new knowledge? Nothing, once done freaking out because you don't have a body, and that's the point. But then you remember - you never did have a body. This is not new. The rules don't change. Let's see - what was I doing? Oh yes, getting ready to mix a margarita. It's just as enjoyable knowing it's an illusion. Have two. The tequila is low, but you know where to get more.
Foreknowledge is not the cause.

Nor was it claimed to be. We have foreknowledge of the next solar eclipse, but no claim is made that that knowledge will cause it.

The purpose of God gives us our ability of change. Abdul'baha gave this thought at a table talk of Freewill and its Limits.

I'm sure you realize that that source has no meaning or value to an unbeliever. It's odd that you keep posting such things to unbelievers. I'm sure that you're not surprised that I didn't look at either link. Why would I? In the hope that it might contain something useful? Baha'i scriptures never have in the past.

The garden story is a metaphor of free will, it is not a literal story.

You don't know what it was written for, and there are better answers than that. It's a cautionary tale, a warning. Man doesn't need a metaphor for free will, nor did the story contain one, metaphors being symbols, like "the apple of his eye." That story contained literal free will. And it is reasonable and likely to assume that myths like that one were originally meant and understood as history.

Contrast that with Aesop's' fables, which were presented as fictions, or even biblical parables, which are also presented as not having actually occurred. That's not the case with biblical myths. The Tower of Babbel was a literal tower. The global flood was a literal global flood.

I'd say that the most likely reason it was written was to explain why man finds himself living a short, difficult life rather than in a paradise by people who believed that the was a God who could have done that for them. As usual, the answer given is to blame the victim - man is being punished for being human, just as with the tower and flood myths just named. And the Sodom story, which may have a historical origin as a devastating meteor impact, which happened why? To punish man again. Fire and brimstone: Sodom and Gomorrah perhaps destroyed by 'cosmic fireball,' evidence shows - Study Finds

Another possibility for why the myth was written was to frighten people into submission to the priests, in which case it can be understood as a warning against exercising free will.

Or perhaps some combination of the two.

One more point. One of these four myths is different from the others, because it explains nothing - the flood myth. The Garden myth explains why we're not in paradise despite a tri-omni God, the tower myth explains why different languages exist despite a tri-omni God (obviously, the earth would do better with just one), and the Sodom myth likely explains why a devastating astronomical event occurred despite a tri-omni God.

What aspect of ancient Hebrew life does a global flood, which is also explained as a ham-handed punishment of man, explain or account for? The myth depicts the deity in the most unflattering of ways. It blames man for its own shortcomings as a creator, kills virtually all terrestrial life cruelly, and then corrects the problem using the same breeding stock, which is soon rolling on the floor drunk and naked. Why is that story included? I have a hypothesis for that as well - marine fossils and sea shells found on the highest mountain tops. Think about it. Explain that without an understanding of sea floor rising. Since the land doesn't rise (it actually does, but they couldn't know or even imagine it), it must all have been under water at some time, and we know what that means - God was punishing man for being human again. How else could that happen?
 

DNB

Christian
Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?
Knowing what will happen and planning for and around it, is very different than either intervening and causing something to happen, or hard-coding the events and the outcomes.
God's wisdom allows Him to anticipate all possible results of any particular situation, no matter who is involved. And, thus, can prepare that all human actions will comply with His ultimate will.

Just as parents, who know their children better than the children know themselves, creates an environment for them where they will behave according to their parent's desires. They children are not deprived of their free-will, but are in sphere that is conducive to bring out what the parents desire in their behaviour, for better or for worse.

But, God, who is infinitely wiser than any human, will always chose the best scenario for any individual, according to what He wants to elicit within their character.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your loss.

So you keep implying, but never produce anything of value from these sources in support of that claim.

there is a limit to critical thinkers.

Yes, and it's a feature, not a flaw. Critical thought limits what is to be believed to that which is demonstrably the case. That's why I rejected your claim above. You simply say that there is a loss, but don't demonstrate or explain what that is. Shouldn't you be able to demonstrate some benefit to this belief structure of yours to you that would also be of benefit to others if they followed your path? I can do that for humanism. I can say about you not being a humanist, "your loss" and explain just what that is and why it's a loss to you not having it, but I don't think you want to hear that and I'm not trying to change your opinion anyway, just pointing out false claims.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Sounds like God does have a plan then?
I find plans can often be changed, but God's purpose for Earth is more than a plan, not a change of mind.
God's purpose is the same as found at Genesis 1:28 to populate the Earth until it is populated (Not over populated)
Expand Eden until the whole Earth is a beautiful paradisical global garden as Eden was a blueprint sample.
Through Jesus, God's purpose is to bring an end to 'enemy death' on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You simply say that there is a loss, but don't demonstrate or explain what that is.

Your reply was the demonstration and explanation, it said it all.

In this explanation, the Messengers are the door.

It is like having a door with all the secrets of life behind it and then offering the choice to another person to open it and venture inside, with the knowledge that the only way those secrets can be found, is by unbiased perusal of all that is behind that door

Then if that person says. "I'm sure that you're not surprised that I didn't look behind that door. Why would I? In the hope that it might contain something useful?"

That is demonstrably "Their Loss". The old saying, leading a horse to water, but not being able to make it drink.

The loss is demonstrated by one simple observation.

If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then that is the proof of the loss of those that chose not pursue. (Applicable to all Prophets, Messengers, Manifestations)

It is a freewill choice, given of God.

Regards Tony
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
It's a bit like the argument of free will. People say, "Well, how do you have free will? Do you think you do have it?" Well, it's a very, very difficult subject indeed. Some religions say you don't, in effect, have it, that all is determined by heaven, you are really only a plaything in a larger game. I take that to be some of the point of Calvinism. There are some schools of Islam, also, that say, "It is only as Allah wills." There's no will of yours really involved as long as you are willing to make the prostration and the obedience. So the connection between religion and free will isn’t as simple—as easy as some people like to think it is. But I would say, yes, I think we have free will. And when asked why I think so, I would have to take refuge in philosophical irony and say because I don’t think we have any choice but to have free will. Well, at least I know at this point that I’m being ironic. And that some of the irony is at my own expense, and it’s a risk I have to be willing to run. But the Christian answer is, “Of course you have free will. The boss insists upon it.” This somewhat degrades the freedom and redefines the idea of will."
-Christopher Hitchens
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Does God have control over the future of our souls and the universe? If yes, is our freewill not redundant if it is going to go according to God’s plan anyway? If no, does that mean there is a chance God’s will might not be done?
Free will means God doesn’t have the unfolding of our will planned, he planned and built the arena in which we live and chose.

“We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such foreknowledge does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.

Omnipotence does not imply the power to do the nondoable, the ungodlike act. Neither does omniscience imply the knowing of the unknowable. But such statements can hardly be made comprehensible to the finite mind. The creature can hardly understand the range and limitations of the will of the Creator.” UB 1955


IMOP
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your reply was the demonstration and explanation, it said it all.

I had written, "You simply say that there is a loss, but don't demonstrate or explain what that is." Your record remains intact. You still offer nothing in support of your claim.

The loss is demonstrated by one simple observation. If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then that is the proof of the loss of those that chose not pursue.

That's your demonstration of what I'm missing out on? That's a conditional statement. If your messenger is just another man speaking for an imagined god, which is overwhelmingly likely to be the case even before you read the words, words that human beings routinely write and even AI can generate, then why read them once you know that?

It is like having a door with all the secrets of life behind it and then offering the choice to another person to open it and venture inside, with the knowledge that the only way those secrets can be found, is by unbiased perusal of all that is behind that door

Except that I've already gone through that door a few times, shopped around, saw nothing that I liked, and now decline offers to keep looking, because there are things of great value here. "Show me," I say. "Show me what you have of value in here," and nothing is ever produced of interest of value, much less all of the secrets of life.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Except that I've already gone through that door a few times, shopped around, saw nothing that I liked, and now decline offers to keep looking, because there are things of great value here. "Show me," I say. "Show me what you have of value in here," and nothing is ever produced of interest of value, much less all of the secrets of life.

That's great, window shopping is fun.

Good thing is that all behind that door was and still is free. How do we put a value on what is given away freely? One could have taken some of thise items home, open them up to further study, to see what they do actually contain.

Regards Tony
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's great, window shopping is fun.

It's more like you're a restaurant offering a cuisine I'm familiar with and don't care for, like a steak house to a vegan.

Good thing is that all behind that door was and still is free. How do we put a value on what is given away freely?

Easy. If we're better off or happier with something than without it, it has value to us, the degree being commensurate to what we are willing to risk or forego for it. What you have been seeing repeatedly in these threads is how little most people value what you are offering even at no charge (but not at no cost). Yet you keep claiming that they are missing out on something while never being able to demonstrate or even articulate what that is. Why would they believe you or trust your judgment over their own?

Moreover, do you think that people want to walk in the shoes of a zealous theist? Do you think such people appear enviable to those living comfortably without religion?

One could have taken some of those items home, open them up to further study, to see what they do actually contain.

Why? I know what you're offering - religion. I've already tested and rejected that and found something that works better and with which I am well satisfied - humanism. And notice that I don't try to sell it to you, nor make promises about how it will make your life better even though that is likely correct if it were an option for you. Why? I understand you better than you understand me. Neither of us has a prayer of making any impact on the other, which is why I don't even try, but you don't seem to understand that, which is why you keep trying to sell your religion to people who you should know by now have no interest in it.
 
Last edited:

F1fan

Veteran Member
I find plans can often be changed, but God's purpose for Earth is more than a plan, not a change of mind.
God's purpose is the same as found at Genesis 1:28 to populate the Earth until it is populated (Not over populated)
Then what is over-populated? Let's note that in your God's creation it includes bacteria and virus that are deadly to many humans. These are more deadly as there are more crowded cities to spread disease. Not exactly a paradise, is it?

Expand Eden until the whole Earth is a beautiful paradisical global garden as Eden was a blueprint sample.
Through Jesus, God's purpose is to bring an end to 'enemy death' on Earth - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Jesus was a solution to problems that God created, namely a circumstance of rampant sin among the humans he created. If God was going to create humans with more vices than virtues then he should have also created a better set of lessons to manage the primal impulses. The Hebrews have their divine laws from God, but these are rejected in modern times, mostly for being largely criminal. Seems God is constantly trying to fix poor design choices. Did Jesus fix anything? Not really. Look at the massive division among Christians, and that many nasty right wingers who are more anti-Christ than followers of Jesus.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Your reply was the demonstration and explanation, it said it all.

In this explanation, the Messengers are the door.

It is like having a door with all the secrets of life behind it and then offering the choice to another person to open it and venture inside, with the knowledge that the only way those secrets can be found, is by unbiased perusal of all that is behind that door

Then if that person says. "I'm sure that you're not surprised that I didn't look behind that door. Why would I? In the hope that it might contain something useful?"

That is demonstrably "Their Loss". The old saying, leading a horse to water, but not being able to make it drink.
In the case of your religious belief we critical thinkers are horses that have access to plenty of clean water, and what you want to present to us can't be determined to actually be water. All we have is you promising that your water is better, but the samples you offer us are brown and murky. We are suspicious. Do we need anyone offering their kind of murky water? No.

The loss is demonstrated by one simple observation.
We lose access to murky water, that isn't a loss.

If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then that is the proof of the loss of those that chose not pursue. (Applicable to all Prophets, Messengers, Manifestations)
If the water is clean as you claim then it is safe. You offer us no adequate evidence that your water is as advertised. Buyer beware.

It is a freewill choice, given of God.
Free will is not actually a thing as theists tend to use the phrase. There is a great deal of subconscious and socially learned biases that enter into the decisions we humans make. Critical thinkers can be said to be biased in the sense that we are not oen to the social pressure to adopt irrational and popular ideas.

And there are no gods known to exist, so referring to a God as if it is real and a cause for something is passive aggressive. It is a way to attempt imposing some authority over those you disagree with. I find this a huge misstep for theists who regularly claim a sort of spiritual superiority over critical thinkers.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
I think that the introduction of algorithms as standard to the processing of web-based data and a wider understanding by the public of what this means, gives us a new and improved way of approaching the never-ending question of about the concept of free will vs. that of determinism.

If physical existence were to run by “code”, to learn from accumulated data and evolve accordingly, then the emergence of “free will” -as in decision making/agency/choice- would be its inevitable outcome.

Note: I’m not literally suggesting that we exist in a simulation, but using an familiar, modern human concept to speak of a spiritual one.


Humbly,
Hermit
Proof of mind taught biology removed not gods will is when humans say I'm part machine and believe it.

As God didn't invent design ...as men build react machines as men did. All things includes mass evolved itself not by design.

Space law twice froze rock held rock as stones.

Man destroys. Two space law histories himself. Lied.

Gods will gives man freedom to do as he pleases...even to destroy himself if he so wishes.

Family is the only place that tries to stop you. Not by free will as you controlled life as rich man murderer.

By the love care and awareness of being a family member human taught by gods heavens spirit visions that tell us.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, He doesn't have control over the future.
There are 8 billion free wills... God cannot control them.
I believe that God could control everyone if He wanted to, but He does not want to so He doesn't.
Why would God give humans free will just to take it away?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If it is God's will that humans choose the future then whatever we choose is according to God's will.
Whatever we choose is according to our will since we chose it.
Our choices are God's will in the sense that God allows us to make them, but they are not necessarily what God wants us to choose.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Is there no way that our choices could stray from what God has planned? If not, how is it freewill? Is it truly free if our choices all lead to the same outcome?
There is a difference between God knowing what is going to happen in the future and God planning our future.

God knows the future because God is all-knowing, so God has perfect foreknowledge, but God's foreknowledge is not what causes things to happen in this world. Human free will choices and actions cause things to happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Some Answered Questions, p. 138
 
Top