There ain't no Jesus here.

[URAVIP2ME]

That's true. But that anointing is clearly a metaphor meant to represent the opposite of the metaphor that is represented by the ashes.
I assume you aren't arguing for a metaphorical anointing.
Is there mention of Moses being anointed at all...?

No, Not by oil, but because God appointed Moses then Moses was His prophet, His representative and be God's anointed one, messiah or in Christian Scripture as Christ - Hebrews 11:26

For the first time in Holy Scripture we read of a human (Moses) being empowered by God to perform miracles - Exodus 4:1-3; Exodus 4:4-6; Exodus 4:7-9

 

[Muffled]

Any Christians out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH without reading Jesus into it?
Just reading what it says and taking it at face value without the lens of the NT?

I'd be interested to know how you fared and where you had no choice but to read Jesus there for lack of better explanation of the passage.

I believe I don't read the Tenach. I read the OT. I don't usually go looking for Jesus in every corner of the OT but there is no doubt that some verses are very familiar from what I have read in the NT.

 

[Tumah]

I believe I don't read the Tenach. I read the OT. I don't usually go looking for Jesus in every corner of the OT but there is no doubt that some verses are very familiar from what I have read in the NT.

That wasn't really the question. The question was if you can read it without the lens of the NT, as it was understood before the NT was written.

 

[roger1440]

I believe I don't read the Tenach. I read the OT. I don't usually go looking for Jesus in every corner of the OT but there is no doubt that some verses are very familiar from what I have read in the NT.

A prerequisite to reading the New Testament is reading the Old Testament.

 

[Muffled]

Yes I believe the NT was simply made to sound as if it was prophesied by the OT, where in truth the OT was not speaking about Jesus at all.

I believe there is no justification for believing this. It is the null hypothesis. One must prove that God had no reason to prophesy that a Messiah was coming and that He didn't know what He was talking about when He named Him Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, it is easy to prophesy after an event.

I believe that does not happen but I am sure it is easier to recognize the fulfillment of prophecy after the event occurs.

 

[Muffled]

That wasn't really the question. The question was if you can read it without the lens of the NT, as it was understood before the NT was written.

I believe so since I read prophecy in the OT before reading the NT. However no-one at the time understood what the prophecies were saying and I didn't either until the Holy Spirit revealed them to me. I think a prime example was the messianic term "The Branch." I never understood what it meant but one day I asked a Sabra (Israeli born Jew) what it meant. He got out his scripture and read those funny looking characters from right to left and said it means new growth either branching out from a tree or out of a stump. It was the idea of new life coming out of a dead stump that makes so much sense in the light of the resurrection.

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe I don't read the Tenach. I read the OT. I don't usually go looking for Jesus in every corner of the OT but there is no doubt that some verses are very familiar from what I have read in the NT.

If you read the first chapter of John's Gospel, you understand that the relationship between Jesus and God described in those passages, is something totally incompatible with the description of the Messiah in the OT.
Saint Paul noticed this great contradiction, and all his epistles are just a desperate attempt to make these two completely different religious traditions match with one another. He didn't realize that, because of this unnatural process, most of his epistles have contradictory passages.

 

[Tumah]

I believe so since I read prophecy in the OT before reading the NT.

If that's the case, I'd be interested to know how you ever get to Jesus?

However no-one at the time understood what the prophecies were saying and I didn't either until the Holy Spirit revealed them to me.

Why do you think no one understood them, when they have clear and obvious meaning?

I think a prime example was the messianic term "The Branch." I never understood what it meant but one day I asked a Sabra (Israeli born Jew) what it meant. He got out his scripture and read those funny looking characters from right to left and said it means new growth either branching out from a tree or out of a stump. It was the idea of new life coming out of a dead stump that makes so much sense in the light of the resurrection.

Somehow I think either your sabra was a Christian or it didn't really happen. I assume you are referring to Isaiah 11:1.
The first word means "rod" and its the same word found in Prov. 14:3. It has nothing to do with a tree living or dead. In fact usually rods are dead wood.
The second word means "shoot" and it refers to a live growth with no implications about its source. In fact in another place, its implied that it is growing from live roots (Isa. 60:21). So there is no such idea present in this verse.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Machamadim is about prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Thats one thing i know for sure

 

[Tumah]

Machamadim is about prophet Muhammad PBUH.

Thats one thing i know for sure

Haha! I guess even you have a sense of humor!!!

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Haha! I guess even you have a sense of humor!!!

I was pretty serious.

 

[Tumah]

I was pretty serious.

Haha, if you were a different poster whose name I won't mention, I would believe you. But you're too smart for me to believe that!

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Who is that poster?

 

[Tumah]

Who is that poster?

I don't want to say. But I'm sure Muhammad wants him to stop.

 

[Tumah]

No, Not by oil, but because God appointed Moses then Moses was His prophet, His representative and be God's anointed one, messiah or in Christian Scripture as Christ - Hebrews 11:26

For the first time in Holy Scripture we read of a human (Moses) being empowered by God to perform miracles - Exodus 4:1-3; Exodus 4:4-6; Exodus 4:7-9

Sorry, somehow I missed this post.

Being empowered to perform miracles is not related to being anointed. And there is no mention of Moses being anointed with oil before he became able to perform miracles. There is no link here between the two.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Tumah, you're quite right. Without the spirit of God to enlighten their darkness, people would not have been able to see Jesus in the scriptures of the Tanach. This MYSTERY, as it is called in the New Testament, is spoken about by saint Paul. He says, 'Now to him that is able to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But is now made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:' (Romans 16:25, 26)
Elsewhere, we are told that the reason for keeping the mystery a secret was to outwit 'the princes of this world' (1 Corinthians 2: 7,8).
Jesus Christ was the light of the world, and one thing he illuminated was the prophecy of the Tanach. It says in Luke 24: 27, 'And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.'

As regards the word BRANCH, I suggest you look specifically at the word TSEMACH. What does this mean to you? The word has only five usages in the Tanach, and each is very significant to the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[rosends]

As regards the word BRANCH, I suggest you look specifically at the word TSEMACH. What does this mean to you? The word has only five usages in the Tanach, and each is very significant to the person of Jesus Christ.

Just a bit of info -- the root tz-m-ch occurs in various forms 45 times (33 expressed as a verb, 12 as a noun form). As specifically tzemach, the word appears (with prefixes and suffixes) 12 times. The word as simply tzemach (no prefixes or suffixes) appears 6 times, 3 times as a particular adjunct to a noun and 3 times as a noun on its own.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, somehow I missed this post.
Being empowered to perform miracles is not related to being anointed. And there is no mention of Moses being anointed with oil before he became able to perform miracles. There is no link here between the two.

Agree that empowered to perform miracles does Not have to be related to being anointed. Who anointed Moses?_______ Where is the record of Moses being anointed with oil, yet Moses performed miracles. No record of Moses being anointed with oil but Moses did have God's spirit to empower him.

Does the special anointing with oil - Hebrew ma.shach' - come from the word ma.shi'ach (Messiah) ?-______ Exodus 30:30 ; Leviticus 4:5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If you read the first chapter of John's Gospel, you understand that the relationship between Jesus and God described in those passages, is something totally incompatible with the description of the Messiah in the OT.
Saint Paul noticed this great contradiction, and all his epistles are just a desperate attempt to make these two completely different religious traditions match with one another. He didn't realize that, because of this unnatural process, most of his epistles have contradictory passages.

John wrote ' after ' Paul wrote.

Please keep in mind KJV translations omitted the letter 'a' at John 1:1 but inserted the letter 'a' at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B although the same Greek grammar rule applies at both.

What is incompatible about John 1:18 A with Exodus 33:20 ?
The word was with God - Proverbs 8:30
with God - Genesis 1:26 - is also compatible.
Law given through Moses - John 1:17 compatible with Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 4:44
John 1:21 compatible with Malachi 4:5 and Deuteronomy 18:15
John 1:23 compatible with Isaiah 40:3
John 1:26 compatible with Isaiah 53:2
John 1:41 compatible with Daniel 9:25-26
John 1:45 compatible with Genesis 3:15; Genesis 22:18; Deuteronomy 18:18
John 1:45 also with Isaiah 9:6; Jeremiah 33:15; Ezekiel 34:23; Micah 5:2; Zechariah 6:12; Malachi 3:1