There ain't no Jesus here.

[Muffled]

Please give the verses you think are related to his resurrection in the Tanakh.

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Tumah]

I believe when I did read the prophets I still did not see Jesus in them as I can remember but I did see Jesus in them later as the Holy Spirit guided my understanding. I have had a pastor tell me that this is progressive revelation. Things are revealed as I become able to understand them.

I believe you can't see what is there because you are not yet able to understand it.

In other words, its only after you want to see Jesus in there, that you do.

 

[roger1440]

In other words, its only after you want to see Jesus in there, that you do.

What do you see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test

 

[rosends]

Isa 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.

Do you mean
"And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand."

 

[Tumah]

I haven't yet seen, or been shown, any texts from the Tanach that undermine my belief, arrived at after much study, that Jesus must be the Messiah.
Let's take an issue that clearly offends you - that of a virgin birth. You will, no doubt, want to refer to the translation of Isaiah 7:14 and say, as the JSB says, 'Look, the young woman ('almah') is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel ['God with us'].
Now let's give this some thought. You believe in a personal messianic figure. You believe he must be descended from Abraham [Genesis 12:3], through the Davidic line [2 Sam. 7:12-15], born in Bethlehem [Micah 5:2], a King of Israel [Psalm 2], and a priest [Psalm 110].
If God is to choose a mother to bear the Messiah he will clearly want to follow the very law he provides in Leviticus 21, 9-15. Yes, this law applies at an individual and national level. Leviticus 21:13, 'And he shall take a wife in her virginity' or JSB, 'He may marry only a woman who is a virgin.'
Now I'm fully aware that God is not marrying the mother of the Messiah, but it's quite clear that God would apply the same principles when choosing a woman as the righteous mother of the Messiah as he does when talking about a High Priest taking a wife. It is therefore quite reasonable to say that in choosing Mary, God would choose a young woman who was also a virgin.
Now, you wonder, why is it necessary to have a virgin conception? For the very reason that the baby is then genuinely the son of God. This is prefigured in the story of Abraham and Isaac. But Jesus still has a human gestation and birth, and his upbringing is under the law without miraculous power. It is only at the age of about 30 that he receives the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the approval of his heavenly father, 'Thy art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'

1.The concept of a virgin birth is not offensive, its preposterous.
2. Genesis 12:3 is not a prophecy about the messiah.
3. 2 Samuel 7:12-15 is a prophecy about Solomon.
4. Micah 5:2 is referencing where Jesse's came from, not where the messiah will come from.
5. Psalm 2 is talking about David.
6. Psalm 110 can be understood to be about either Abraham or David.
7. The requirement for a High Priest to marry a virgin means that she needs to be a virgin at the time of the marriage, not at the moment of conception. The parallel makes no sense.

The concept of the virgin birth and being a genuine son of G-d is not prefigured anywhere in the story - its retro-fitted into the story. That's why people who are not familiar with the NT have no problem understanding it without automatically concluding a figure similar to Jesus.

 

[Tumah]

What do you see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test

I see a Rorschach test!
How about you?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You are citing the laws of who a priest or the Aaronic line ust marry. Since the messiah will be of the Davidic family, the tribe of Judah, he will NOT be a priest and these laws cannot apply to his parents. Why are you citing completely inapplicable laws?

I'm making a point about God's choice of a mother for the Messiah. By analogy, if he insists that the High Priest (who is meant to be holy) marry a virgin, why would he not choose a virgin to bear his own son? This would reflect God's own holiness.
Also Psalm 110 shows that it is possible for one person, the Messiah, to combine more than one office. Like Melchizedek, the Messiah is a king and a priest.

No, completely unreasonable. David was chosen to be king and he was the youngest of the sons in his family. This means that when he was conceived, his mother was NOT a virgin. Moses' mother wasn't a virgin when he was conceived. Why are you intimating a requirement which isn't there?

Yes, there are differences between David and the true Messiah. The true Messiah is without sin, yet we know that both David and Moses sinned.
Look again at Psalm 110 and you see David talking about 'my Lord' - the same Lord who will sit at the right hand of the Father.

"Genuinely the son of God"? Except that the messiah is not any more the son of God than I am. I mean, the text does say
Exodus 4:22

And you shall say to Pharaoh: Thus says the L-rd: "Israel is My son, My firstborn."

Hosea 11:1

When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son.

Loads of others were called the son of God, including Angels, David and Solomon. Are you claiming God sired them all physically? Neither Abraham nor Isaac was conceived by God so invoking them is ridiculous. Again, citing irrelevant material to piece together what you see as a logical argument is stacking fallacy upon fallacy.

Exodus 4:22. This reference to Israel finds its parallel in the Messiah. He too is the first-born.
Hosea 11:1. And likewise, the Messiah is called out of Egypt after his escape there from Bethlehem.

Jesus is referred to as 'the only begotten son of God'. There is a physical element to his sonship. But there is also a spiritual dimension. This occurs from the point at which Jesus is anointed by the Holy Spirit. I believe that this is the point at which God comes to his temple (Malachi 3:1) All other sons of God, thinking particularly of the body of Christ, are adopted. They become sons of God by adoption.

 

[First Baseman]

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. If you don't open the door then you are right, there is no Jesus in your here.

 

[Brian Schuh]

I'm making a point about God's choice of a mother for the Messiah. By analogy, if he insists that the High Priest (who is meant to be holy) marry a virgin, why would he not choose a virgin to bear his own son? This would reflect God's own holiness.
Also Psalm 110 shows that it is possible for one person, the Messiah, to combine more than one office. Like Melchizedek, the Messiah is a king and a priest.


Yes, there are differences between David and the true Messiah. The true Messiah is without sin, yet we know that both David and Moses sinned.
Look again at Psalm 110 and you see David talking about 'my Lord' - the same Lord who will sit at the right hand of the Father.


Exodus 4:22. This reference to Israel finds its parallel in the Messiah. He too is the first-born.
Hosea 11:1. And likewise, the Messiah is called out of Egypt after his escape there from Bethlehem.

Jesus is referred to as 'the only begotten son of God'. There is a physical element to his sonship. But there is also a spiritual dimension. This occurs from the point at which Jesus is anointed by the Holy Spirit. I believe that this is the point at which God comes to his temple (Malachi 3:1) All other sons of God, thinking particularly of the body of Christ, are adopted. They become sons of God by adoption.

What does that mean "only begotten"? I don't speak Old English, would you rephrase that in modern English?

All I can say is Mary must have been one hot babe that God Himself chose her to have His kid.

In all seriousness, the Messiah was to be the son of David, so the son of God need not apply. It doesn't matter that Mary descended from David, as the Messiah needs to have a patrilineal descent from David.

 

[Redemptionsong]

1.The concept of a virgin birth is not offensive, its preposterous.
2. Genesis 12:3 is not a prophecy about the messiah.
3. 2 Samuel 7:12-15 is a prophecy about Solomon.
4. Micah 5:2 is referencing where Jesse's came from, not where the messiah will come from.
5. Psalm 2 is talking about David.
6. Psalm 110 can be understood to be about either Abraham or David.
7. The requirement for a High Priest to marry a virgin means that she needs to be a virgin at the time of the marriage, not at the moment of conception. The parallel makes no sense.

The concept of the virgin birth and being a genuine son of G-d is not prefigured anywhere in the story - its retro-fitted into the story. That's why people who are not familiar with the NT have no problem understanding it without automatically concluding a figure similar to Jesus.

The virgin conception is not preposterous, it is quite in keeping with the will and power of God. Even in the notes that I have been reading on www.chabad there is acceptance that miracles will be associated with the messianic age. The sages predicted the messianic age at exactly the time that Jesus appeared - yet Israel's rejection of the Messiah at that time has led to the 'times of the Gentiles'. Only the remnant of Israel with now be grafted back in to the olive tree.

Listen to what Paul says in Romans,'But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation will I anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.' Further on Paul says, ' Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'

In all the other passages you have listed you have sought the imperfect type over the perfect consummation. Yet this fails to recognise the spirit of prophecy as being the Word of God. It is this very Word that has come down to Earth in the Messiah. The Messiah is the consummation of the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

 

[roger1440]

I see a Rorschach test!
How about you?

I see Jesus sitting under an olive tree with Mary Magdalen with a bottle of Manischewitz wine.

 

[rosends]

I'm making a point about God's choice of a mother for the Messiah. By analogy, if he insists that the High Priest (who is meant to be holy) marry a virgin, why would he not choose a virgin to bear his own son? This would reflect God's own holiness.
Also Psalm 110 shows that it is possible for one person, the Messiah, to combine more than one office. Like Melchizedek, the Messiah is a king and a priest.

First, Malkitzedek was before the laws came out. He also wasn't of the line of David. He wasn't a king of anything Jewish, and lived before Aaron. Using him as a precedent, ignoring all subsequent laws is ridiculous. Next, taking the requirement of "marrying a virgin" and jumping to "a virgin bear[ing] his own son" is meaningless. The high priest also wore a hat. Does that mean that God has to wear a hat? You are drawing conclusions that have no validity.

Yes, there are differences between David and the true Messiah. The true Messiah is without sin, yet we know that both David and Moses sinned.

As did Jesus. Can you show me where the text says that the "true" Messiah is without sin?

Look again at Psalm 110 and you see David talking about 'my Lord' - the same Lord who will sit at the right hand of the Father.

You should read the Hebrew and learn the difference between a chirik and a kamatz. Different words are used here.

Exodus 4:22. This reference to Israel finds its parallel in the Messiah. He too is the first-born.

So then not "only". And how can more than one be "first"?

Hosea 11:1. And likewise, the Messiah is called out of Egypt after his escape there from Bethlehem.

So anyone who leaves Egypt can make the same claim to Messiah-ship. Got it.

Jesus is referred to as 'the only begotten son of God'.

But he isn't the only one. You just said "too."

There is a physical element to his sonship. But there is also a spiritual dimension.

Well, that depends on books external to the Jewish texts.

This occurs from the point at which Jesus is anointed by the Holy Spirit. I believe that this is the point at which God comes to his temple (Malachi 3:1) All other sons of God, thinking particularly of the body of Christ, are adopted. They become sons of God by adoption.

That's a strange claim to make since God says of David
Psalms 2:7

I [David] will tell of the decree of the L-rd: He said to me, "You are My son; today I have begotten you."

and, as per Ex 4:22, Israel isn't adopted, but first-born.

 

[Tumah]

The virgin conception is not preposterous, it is quite in keeping with the will and power of God.

The preposterous is in the nature of the event. That G-d should impregnate a woman is ridiculous and baseless.

Even in the notes that I have been reading on www.chabad there is acceptance that miracles will be associated with the messianic age.

Acceptance of miraculous events is not the same as acceptance of ridiculous events. Further, the concept negates the possibility for the messiah to be a king of the Davidic line.

The sages predicted the messianic age at exactly the time that Jesus appeared - yet Israel's rejection of the Messiah at that time has led to the 'times of the Gentiles'. Only the remnant of Israel with now be grafted back in to the olive tree.

No they didn't.
It's 200 years emptiness, 2000 years Torah and 2000 years for the [time frame] of the Messianic Age. We are currently in the year 5776.. That would place the start of the Messianic Age in the year 240 CE.

Listen to what Paul says in Romans,'But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation will I anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.' Further on he says, ' Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.'

No, I'm not going to take the word of the guy who made up the whole story to begin with.

In all the other passages you have listed you have sought the imperfect type over the perfect consummation.

These words have no meaning.
In all the passage, I have sought to understand the passage within the context they were written. Any other understanding of the passage is you reading into the verse what you want, rather than taking out of the verse what it says.

Yet this fails to recognise the spirit of prophecy as being the Word of God. It is this very Word that has come down to Earth in the Messiah. The Messiah is the consummation of the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

That's you're way of writing me off, and is false. I completely accept that prophecy is the Word of G-d. That has no bearing here. You are making G-d's word say something that is not being said. You are twisting G-d's Word for your own needs.

 

[Redemptionsong]

What does that mean "only begotten"? I don't speak Old English, would you rephrase that in modern English?

All I can say is Mary must have been one hot babe that God Himself chose her to have His kid.

In all seriousness, the Messiah was to be the son of David, so the son of God need not apply. It doesn't matter that Mary descended from David, as the Messiah needs to have a patrilineal descent from David.

There's a bit of 'old' and 'English' about me too. I must have become accustomed to the language. Anyhow, I understand 'only begotten' to mean the only one born from the womb. As Samson says, 'for I have been a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any other man.'

Was Mary a hot babe? Maybe not in appearance. It states that God 'hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:' She was 'highly favoured', and 'blessed among women'. (Luke 1)

Now tell me - is our God the God of both heaven and earth? How is God to save if God does not come down to earth?

Scripture says that there is only one Saviour - God (Hosea 13:4). If God is to be our Saviour then He must come down to earth. Mankind, in a state of sin, cannot save itself. Psalm 69:13,14. 'But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation. Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.'

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does that mean "only begotten"? I don't speak Old English, would you rephrase that in modern English?
All I can say is Mary must have been one hot babe that God Himself chose her to have His kid.
In all seriousness, the Messiah was to be the son of David, so the son of God need not apply. It doesn't matter that Mary descended from David, as the Messiah needs to have a patrilineal descent from David.

Mary gave Jesus the maternal physical line - Luke 3:23-38
Joseph gave Jesus the paternal legal line - Matthew 1:1-17

'only begotten ' applies to the pre-human heavenly Jesus before God sent Jesus to earth.
Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God in heaven - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B.
Jesus was ' only-begotten Son ' because all other creation comes through Jesus - Colossians 1:15.
Jesus was Not firstborn of all creation on earth, and there first was angelic creation in the heavens before material creation- Job 38:5-7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Now tell me - is our God the God of both heaven and earth? How is God to save if God does not come down to earth?

Scripture says that there is only one Saviour - God (Hosea 13:4). If God is to be our Saviour then He must come down to earth. Mankind, in a state of sin, cannot save itself. Psalms 69:13,14. 'But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD, in an acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in the truth of thy salvation. Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not sink: let me be delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep waters.'

According to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16 God will save by the executional 'words' from Jesus' mouth which will rid the earth of wickedness - Psalms 92:7

 

[Brian Schuh]

Mary gave Jesus the maternal physical line - Luke 3:23-38
Joseph gave Jesus the paternal legal line - Matthew 1:1-17

'only begotten ' applies to the pre-human heavenly Jesus before God sent Jesus to earth.
Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God in heaven - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B.
Jesus was ' only-begotten Son ' because all other creation comes through Jesus - Colossians 1:15.
Jesus was Not firstborn of all creation on earth, and there first was angelic creation in the heavens before material creation- Job 38:5-7

The Hassid teach that all souls were created during Creation week. So all people pre-existed. Job 1 says all the sons of God were assembled when Satan came before the Lord.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Hassid teach that all souls were created during Creation week. So all people pre-existed. Job 1 says all the sons of God were assembled when Satan came before the Lord.

Aren't the ' sons of God ' mentioned at Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 'angelic' sons ? ______ Job 38:4-5; Job 38:6-7; Genesis 6:2-4

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... So all people pre-existed. Job 1 says all the sons of God were assembled when Satan came before the Lord.

So you choose to interpret "sons of God" as something other than angels as per Rashi?

 

[Redemptionsong]

That's a strange claim to make since God says of David
Psalms 2:7

I [David] will tell of the decree of the L-rd: He said to me, "You are My son; today I have begotten you."

and, as per Ex 4:22, Israel isn't adopted, but first-born.

These passages confirm what I have been saying. Jesus, as Israel was first-born (physically begotten). Jesus lived under the law (of Israel) until he was about thirty. At about thirty he was baptised by John in the Jordan. This baptism is the anointing (of Christ), the point at which the spirit of God is begotten in Jesus. Jesus is physically begotten and Christ is spiritually begotten.

This gradual revelation allows for a synthesis of the earthly and the heavenly in the person of the Messiah. He fulfils the role of Messiah, Servant, Son of Man, and Son of God.

In Hebrews, Paul confirms this reading of Psalm 2.
Hebrews 1:4-8, 'Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.'