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There ain't no Jesus here.

First Baseman

Retired athlete
But the reality is that this would only be the beginning as over and over again there's expectations of how one must act. One example, as found in Matthew 25 with the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, the "Goats" have the belief about Jesus but don't act on what Jesus taught.

Also, Paul states there's "faith, hope, and love", and he says the greatest of these is "love". In Koine Greek, "agape" is an active noun, namely one just doesn't have love, they live love. This is why so many theologians over the years refer to Jesus' message as "the law of love", and Paul refers to faith w/o love as being like "cymbals clashing"-- lots of noise but with nothing behind them.

So, the question begs whether one believes in Jesus or just about Jesus, with the former being the "Sheep" and the latter being the "Goats". The unfortunate reality, as Gandhi mentioned on a fair number of occasions, all too many self-professed Christians "elevated the man and forgot his message". The Sermon On the Mount was a call, not to just belief, but also too action, but the unfortunate reality is that all too many have the former but don't do the latter-- what I call "rocking-chair religion".

A true belief should create a fundamental change in a person for the better, but I have seen all too many cases where it hasn't done that. Sometimes I'm tempted to ask some people "Do you belong to the Church of the Pit Bull?", they're so aggressive and condescending. That's not the tone whereas I see Jesus coming from as recorded in the gospels.

BTW, ever read "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis? The above is some of the points he makes but far more eloquently than I can muster.

Why are you proselytizing on these things? What do you believe one must do to get saved?

Jesus made it clear as day. He could not been more clear or simple about it:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


That is pretty simple and I tire of hearing people want to make it a complicated thing when it isn't complicated at all.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why are you proselytizing on these things? What do you believe one must do to get saved?

Jesus made it clear as day. He could not been more clear or simple about it:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


That is pretty simple and I tire of hearing people want to make it a complicated thing when it isn't complicated at all.
Oh, I see, so all the other things Jesus said mean nothing? If you want to go through and rip those pages out so as to just believe in what floats your own boat, then I guess ya gotta do whatcha gotta do. Hey, that wouldn't be the first time that a self-professed Christian decided that (s)he only needs to follow what their own ego tells them is important.

And there is a point about "believeth" that's pretty important, I would say, namely that if one truly "believeth" in Jesus, then I would suggest that the advice he gave in Matthew 25 and the Sermon On the Mount, and those that were reinforced by Paul, James and the others, is probably quite important, wouldn't ya think?

The reality is that Catholicism does not teach that faith alone "saves", so you might want to check your copy of the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" and actually read what the Church does teach. After that, maybe you'll see why getting off one's "rocking chair" is mandated, according to Canon Law.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Great....but you aren't the Messiah...


You are still waiting for a Messiah, but how long will your holdout group keep this up?
And didn't Jesus say he would be coming back "in this generation", which was almost two thousand years ago?

Personally, I don't get hung up on this one way or another.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
And didn't Jesus say he would be coming back "in this generation", which was almost two thousand years ago?

Personally, I don't get hung up on this one way or another.
Jesus did come back in that generation. He came back in 70 AD. There were many witnesses. This is taught by the school of preterism. So Christians who are waiting for him to come back- well, I don't deny he could come back a third time. I just hope that someday people won't be waiting for the 17th coming of Jesus. Look, he already came back, the Revelation is fulfilled and there is no need for him to ever come back. That is called full preterism.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Great....but you aren't the Messiah...


You are still waiting for a Messiah, but how long will your holdout group keep this up?
The Messiah has to come by the year 6000 AM. That's the deadline. It currently is the year 5776 AM. If he doesn't come by 6000 AM, give up the hope. There is also the possibility that the Messiah will fail in his mission. With that being said, we still wait.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes, G-d forms and creates man. He causes the seed to impregnate the egg and causes the man to be formed. Which is what's being discussed there. He Himself doesn't impregnate. And that concept is baseless.
You're very keen to impress your interpretation upon this passage of scripture. Where does it talk about a man's seed being involved? It says, 'You fashioned me in my mother's womb'.

Yes. A futile attempt to pass the Davidic line through a foster-father. Another baseless claim.
This is an interesting issue, and one that requires some discussion. I believe that Matthew's gospel gives us Jesus' genealogy from Abraham through to Mary (not Joseph).

That's probably because like everything else you receive, your translation comes through a Christian.
What it actually says is:
It was taught in the house of Elijah: The world exists for 6,000 years. 2,000 years of desolation, 2,000 years of Torah and 2,000 years of the Days of the Messiah. And in our sins that have multiplies, it was taken out from that, what was taken out."
Meaning the last 2,000 years was meant to be the Messianic Age. But our sins have caused the total number of actual years to diminish.
The English translation of the Talmud that I have is edited by Rabbi Dr.Isidore Epstein, printed by the Soncino Press in London, published 1935.
The point being made, which you seem to be overlooking, is that, aside from any sin committed by Israel, the days of creation foreshadow distinct periods in the revelation of God's will and purpose.
Three distinct dispensations (each of about two thousand years), followed by a Sabbath or millenium reign on earth. The messianic era has failed to materialise over the last two thousand years because Israel has rejected the Messiah. That's why this present age has had to be designated 'the times of the Gentiles'.
Now that the time has come for us to expect the return of the Messiah to judge the world, we seem find ourselves looking for different Messiahs. Jesus Christ is said to return in the same way that he left. Acts 1:11, 'this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'
Says a book written long after the supposed event, trying to convince other that the event happened...
These are careless words, Tumah. The documentary evidence for the New Testament is strong. Eye-witnesses to the events would have read the gospels and been able to substantiate their veracity.

Elisha ben Abuya was also a learned Jew. It means nothing.
Saul of Tarsus was a devout Jew. What's remarkable is that someone who was wholly committed to following the law, and denying Jesus as the Messiah, should have had such a sudden and profound conversion. And this conversion did not make life easy for him.

The wider context is what you've imposed on it. It doesn't get wider than the Torah itself. G-d's Word doesn't need to be revealed, it was already revealed. That's what the book is. Stop making up your own theology to support your claims and just read what it says.
I agree that within the Torah are all the seeds of truth. That's because the Torah contains everything revealed by God to Moses. But Moses could not have known all that is written in the Torah through his own reason. Likewise you cannot know all that God has to reveal about the Messiah unless the spirit of God itself reveal these truths to you.
John 16:13,' Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.'
If you were really trying to uncover the truth, you'd read the book on its own terms and not the terms that men put on it.
I'm reading it in the light of Jesus Christ. I believe I'm reading the whole prophecy and not just a portion.
Genesis 1:1,'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'
Revelation 21:1.'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'
The Tanach does not give this completeness of revelation. This completeness is only to be found in the person of Jesus Christ, who is also the Word of God. To find Christ you need the New Testament.
What is to happen to you if Paul's writings turn out to be false?
1 Corinthians 15:17,18. 'And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.'
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You're very keen to impress your interpretation upon this passage of scripture. Where does it talk about a man's seed being involved? It says, 'You fashioned me in my mother's womb'.
How do you think David got into his mother's womb... teleportation?

This is an interesting issue, and one that requires some discussion. I believe that Matthew's gospel gives us Jesus' genealogy from Abraham through to Mary (not Joseph).
No. It doesn't require discussion. It doesn't matter who Jesus' mother or step-father is because lineage - with the exception of actual Jewishness is passed through the father. Lineage is not passed through the step-father or the mother. That's not even a matter of discussion. There's no Jew whose mother was a priest that got to work in the Temple unless his father was one too. There's no Jew who has the possibility of sitting on the throne of the Davidic line through his mother.

The English translation of the Talmud that I have is edited by Rabbi Dr.Isidore Epstein, printed by the Soncino Press in London, published 1935.
The point being made, which you seem to be overlooking, is that, aside from any sin committed by Israel, the days of creation foreshadow distinct periods in the revelation of God's will and purpose.
Three distinct dispensations (each of about two thousand years), followed by a Sabbath or millenium reign on earth. The messianic era has failed to materialise over the last two thousand years because Israel has rejected the Messiah. That's why this present age has had to be designated 'the times of the Gentiles'.
Now that the time has come for us to expect the return of the Messiah to judge the world, we seem find ourselves looking for different Messiahs. Jesus Christ is said to return in the same way that he left. Acts 1:11, 'this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.'
I like how you try to teach me Talmud.
I also like how you try to fudge the dates with the words "about two thousand years". This word is not found in the text.
I also like how you impose a meaning in the Talmud that is not provided by the Talmud. The Talmud already provides a reason why the messiah has not yet come.
I like how you make up the new phrase "time of the Gentiles" which is not found in the Tanach.

Keep believing in your books of men.

These are careless words, Tumah. The documentary evidence for the New Testament is strong. Eye-witnesses to the events would have read the gospels and been able to substantiate their veracity.
Alternatively, the present format of the NT is not the same one that was in circulation at its conception. And the date it was said to have been written, doesn't necessarily have to be the date it was written...

Saul of Tarsus was a devout Jew. What's remarkable is that someone who was wholly committed to following the law, and denying Jesus as the Messiah, should have had such a sudden and profound conversion. And this conversion did not make life easy for him.
There was one thing he was clearly not and that was a devout Jew. He can call himself a chicken and start squawking as much as he wants, that's not going to change what he is. He can write anything he wants about himself to support his arguments. That doesn't mean that it happened that way. That means he wants people to believe him. It makes a much bigger impression to claim to have switched over from the being antagonistic to sympathetic, than starting sympathetic. Which is obvioulsy what he was going for.

I agree that within the Torah are all the seeds of truth. That's because the Torah contains everything revealed by God to Moses. But Moses could not have known all that is written in the Torah through his own reason. Likewise you cannot know all that God has to reveal about the Messiah unless the spirit of God itself reveal these truths to you.
John 16:13,' Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.'
Read: Likewise you cannot know all that God has to reveal unless Paul and co. tells you so.

I'm reading it in the light of Jesus Christ. I believe I'm reading the whole prophecy and not just a portion.
Genesis 1:1,'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'
Revelation 21:1.'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.'
The Tanach does not give this completeness of revelation. This completeness is only to be found in the person of Jesus Christ, who is also the Word of God. To find Christ you need the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 15:17,18. 'And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.'
And because you trust some men more than your own critical reading, you have never actually seen what the Tanach says.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Wow, that was easy. It takes 5-10 years of study for a convert to become Jewish but I got saved (according to St. Paul) in about 5 minutes. And there is nothing I have to do or change about my life, as all my sins past, present and future are forgiven. And on top of that, there is still no need to read the New Testament, go to church or even think about Jesus ever again! Why didn't I get saved a long time ago?
Really, Brian? You think that faith is easy?
(2 Corinthians 11: 22-29) Paul says, 'Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in death oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day have I been in the deep; in journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils amongst false brethren; in weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, and fastings often, in cold and nakedness. beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?'
And this is what it says in Hebrews, also written by Paul. 'Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.'
Let me say, a disciple of Jesus is only joined to the body of Christ in so far as he is led by the spirit of God in love. Jesus Christ said that all the Mosaic law could be summarised in two laws. To love God and to love your neighbour. But as we know, love comes from the heart. A good tree brings forth good fruit. If you don't have love in your heart you cannot do God's will.

So how do you get God's love? Well, from God. Through repentance, and faith in Jesus Christ. In return he promises to bestow the Holy Spirit, bringing new birth to a old sinner. Then one must walk by the spirit in love - minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day.
You think that the faith to love is easy? It brings great suffering, but it also brings great peace and joy.
I do not represent a religious denomination. I am free to follow Jesus Christ. I find fellowship with other people who share my view that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
There was one thing he was clearly not and that was a devout Jew. He can call himself a chicken and start squawking as much as he wants, that's not going to change what he is. He can write anything he wants about himself to support his arguments. That doesn't mean that it happened that way. That means he wants people to believe him. It makes a much bigger impression to claim to have switched over from the being antagonistic to sympathetic, than starting sympathetic. Which is obvioulsy what he was going for.

Even centuries after his passing, Paul is still rousing the anger of his countrymen!
Why should Paul want people to believe his gospel if it's all a lie? Why would he put himself through agony and suffering for the sake of a false prophecy?
He spent months deliberating over the encounter he had with Jesus on the road to Damascus. He had to piece together all the scriptures once again, viewing afresh what he had learned through religious studies.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Really, Brian? You think that faith is easy?
(2 Corinthians 11: 22-29) Paul says, 'Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in death oft. Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day have I been in the deep; in journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils amongst false brethren; in weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, and fastings often, in cold and nakedness. beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?'
And this is what it says in Hebrews, also written by Paul. 'Though he [Jesus] were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.'
Let me say, a disciple of Jesus is only joined to the body of Christ in so far as he is led by the spirit of God in love. Jesus Christ said that all the Mosaic law could be summarised in two laws. To love God and to love your neighbour. But as we know, love comes from the heart. A good tree brings forth good fruit. If you don't have love in your heart you cannot do God's will.

So how do you get God's love? Well, from God. Through repentance, and faith in Jesus Christ. In return he promises to bestow the Holy Spirit, bringing new birth to a old sinner. Then one must walk by the spirit in love - minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day.
You think that the faith to love is easy? It brings great suffering, but it also brings great peace and joy.
I do not represent a religious denomination. I am free to follow Jesus Christ. I find fellowship with other people who share my view that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
This is like those ads that pop up in my email- You qualify for a free $100 Walmart gift card! Then after a 20 minute survey, they say upon fulfilling a purchase requirement, we will send the gift card.

Now something is free or it isn't. A rabbi will tell you upfront how difficult it is to be a Jew, even before one starts to convert. I was told that all I must do is believe Jesus came back to life and confess him as lord. Now comes a purchase requirement.

Scientology is no different, once you think you have met their demands, there is a whole new set of demands, and in Scientology, the demands don't stop until they are sure you are out of money.

Christianity is dishonest. I can honestly say I have met the minimum requirements, now shove off.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So if I believe in my heart that Jesus came back to life and confess him as lord, I shall be saved. St. Paul said so. So here it is, I believe he came back to life and he is lord. Now I'm saved.

What verse or passage do you have in mind about saint Paul ?
What does Jeremiah 17:9 say about trusting our hearts ?
What did Jesus teach about the heart at Matthew 15:19 ?
What did Jesus teach about being saved at Matthew 24:13 but that a person is Not saved unless he endures to the end. ( End of life or end of this world of badness )
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
And didn't Jesus say he would be coming back "in this generation", which was almost two thousand years ago?
.

Please keep in mind Revelation was Not written until the end of the 1st century.
The setting or time frame for Revelation is our day or time period - Revelation 1:10
We are invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come as mentioned at Revelation 22:20 B

Jesus stressed to his followers his return would Not be immediate or instantly at their time of life - Luke 19:11-13; Luke 19:14-15
Jesus would be waiting for the conditions as mentioned at Psalms 110:1-3
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I like how you try to teach me Talmud.
I also like how you try to fudge the dates with the words "about two thousand years". This word is not found in the text.
I also like how you impose a meaning in the Talmud that is not provided by the Talmud. The Talmud already provides a reason why the messiah has not yet come.
I like how you make up the new phrase "time of the Gentiles" which is not found in the Tanach.

Keep believing in your books of men.

Tumah, I'm not trying to tell you how to interpret the Talmud. But unlike the Bible - the written Word of God - the Talmud is a book of men. I happen to agree with a particular interpretation, but not with the calculation of time that some men have placed on it.
God knows his own appointed times, and if these are exactly two thousand years for each dispensation, it makes sense that man's calculations should not be exact. We are not to know the exact time of the Messiah's arrival. We see signs of those times approaching and we prepare ourselves. Only the spirit of God can reveal particulars, as the Lord did with Simeon.
You're right about the reason for the delay in your Messiah's coming. It's sin. And as long as you go on believing that you can be holy without God's salvation, your sin persists.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I hope you don't mind me answering Metis, in #476. The reason Jesus said, 'in this generation', is that this is the generation of Jesus Christ. Look at the first verse of Matthew Chapter 1; it says 'the generation of Jesus Christ' because all who are spiritually born-again belong to Christ. Note how this differs from the 'generations of Adam'. The church is the body of Christ, and it's at the end of this dispensation that he will return.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I hope you don't mind me answering Metis, in #476. The reason Jesus said, 'in this generation', is that this is the generation of Jesus Christ, Look at the first verse of Matthew Chapter 1. It says 'the generation of Jesus Christ' because all who are spiritually born-again belong to Christ. Note how this differs from the 'generations of Adam'. The church is the body of Christ, and it's at the end of this dispensation that he will return.
Let me just say that you're taking a very different interpretation of this versus my own, especially since, if one keeps reading, he's clearly dealing with the end of times.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
He spent months deliberating over the encounter he had with Jesus on the road to Damascus. He had to piece together all the scriptures once again, viewing afresh what he had learned through religious studies.

I would like to know why Paul behaved so differently than Jesus. Did Jesus condemn the Jewish people? Did Jesus even dare judge them? So I don't understand why Paul did.
From the Epistle to the Romans
"What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened"
 
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