There ain't no Jesus here.

[Politesse]

Any Christians out there, ever tried reading the TaNaCH without reading Jesus into it?
Just reading what it says and taking it at face value without the lens of the NT?

I'd be interested to know how you fared and where you had no choice but to read Jesus there for lack of better explanation of the passage.

I think you can (and should) understand the Tanakh without Jesus. But you cannot understand Jesus without the Tanakh.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Not sure what your point is here?

The Hebrew are awaiting a special Mashiach/Messiah from the line of David (whom was also Mashiach/anointed/chosen,) - to bring about the end - and Final Judgment in Sheol.

Jesus (according to the NT) claimed to be that awaited Messiah. That obviously doesn't make it so.

*

My point as I understand it
Messiah is a translation of Mashiach ?
Within the translation is a switch of poles ?
Messiah = saviour peaceful Jesus
Mashiach = saviour warrior King David

 

[InChrist]

Jokes on you, all these references are about me.

Yeah I know I haven't fulfilled them all, but this is just my first visit. There will be more.
.

LOL. Anyone may claim to fulfill the messianic scriptures (and many do or have), but I don't think anyone has done so or had such a huge and ongoing impact on history as the historical Jesus Christ has.

 

[Ingledsva]

My point as I understand it
Messiah is a translation of Mashiach ?
Within the translation is a switch of poles ?
Messiah = saviour peaceful Jesus
Mashiach = saviour warrior King David

Messiah doesn't mean savior. It means anointed by God to a position.

"The term "mashiach" literally means the anointed one, and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the Latter Days. He will be the very real king of a very real Torah government in the Land of Israel: not some "spiritual" or "symbolic" king in Israel, as some have mistakenly thought (especially Christians), and certainly not some gifted Jewish spiritual leader outside the Land of Israel, as others have mistakenly thought (including thousands of Jews in our generation as well as the followers of earlier false Jewish "mashiachs" in generations past). It should be mentioned that while it is not forbidden to foolishly believe that one is the mashiach despite that he is not, it is certainly not the sign of a good grasp of the Torah to be mislead as to his nature and role, described more fully below.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior". " http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm

Christians added "savior."
*

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Messiah doesn't mean savior. It means anointed by God to a position.

"The term "mashiach" literally means the anointed one, and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the Latter Days. He will be the very real king of a very real Torah government in the Land of Israel: not some "spiritual" or "symbolic" king in Israel, as some have mistakenly thought (especially Christians), and certainly not some gifted Jewish spiritual leader outside the Land of Israel, as others have mistakenly thought (including thousands of Jews in our generation as well as the followers of earlier false Jewish "mashiachs" in generations past). It should be mentioned that while it is not forbidden to foolishly believe that one is the mashiach despite that he is not, it is certainly not the sign of a good grasp of the Torah to be mislead as to his nature and role, described more fully below.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior". " http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm

Christians added "savior."
*

Your heathen , idolater , infidel by default ?
How on earth can anything you say be taken seriously your agenda by default is obstruction .
moshiah is saviour
By default the mashiach will help or save

 

[rosends]

Your heathen , idolater , infidel by default ?
How on earth can anything you say be taken seriously your agenda by default is obstruction .
moshiah is saviour
By default the mashiach will help or save

You are confusing 2 words. There is a Hebrew word moshiach (mem-shin-chet) which means "anointed" and is applied to kings and certain priests. There is a completely separate word, moshia (mem-shin-ayin) which means "one who saves". They are completely unrelated in Hebrew, from different roots. If you connect them, you might as well connect "money" and "manatee".

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

You are confusing 2 words. There is a Hebrew word moshiach (mem-shin-chet) which means "anointed" and is applied to kings and certain priests. There is a completely separate word, moshia (mem-shin-ayin) which means "one who saves". They are completely unrelated in Hebrew, from different roots. If you connect them, you might as well connect "money" and "manatee".

Yes understand the literal meaning I think anointed one
However the anointed one helps or saves ?
Moshiach is his status ?
Moshia is his agenda ?
Moshia is the reason the moshiach would return ?

 

[rosends]

Yes understand the literal meaning I think anointed one
However the anointed one helps or saves ?
Mashiach is his status ?
Moshia is his agenda ?
Moshia is the reason the mashiach would return ?

No, the anointed one as a king does some things including lead wars. The anointed one as priest sacrifices animals and enters the holy of holies. If you want to say that therefore the anointed one saves, then by that logic, anyone who leads in a war or sacrifices animals, even not anointed, saves

Since Jesus wasn't anointed it isn't even a relevant point. Since Jesus didn't lead the people in war, or perform sacrifices in the temple or enter the holy of holies, then the word is irrelevant.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

No, the anointed one as a king does some things including lead wars. The anointed one as priest sacrifices animals and enters the holy of holies. If you want to say that therefore the anointed one saves, then by that logic, anyone who leads in a war or sacrifices animals, even not anointed, saves

Since Jesus wasn't anointed it isn't even a relevant point. Since Jesus didn't lead the people in war, or perform sacrifices in the temple or enter the holy of holies, then the word is irrelevant.

If your christian Jesus lives on in christian in theory
I know is something beyond comprehension is OK
After the destruction you mention the agenda of the anointed one is to save
Jesus responsible for lots of wars including crusades and the sacking of Jerusalem .100s of million dead
From christian eyes Jesus is a good contender .
I never studied Jewish prophecy can only see through christian eyes however trying to see from your eyes is difficult .

 

[rosends]

If your christian Jesus lives on in christian in theory
I know is something beyond comprehension is OK
After the destruction you mention the agenda of the anointed one is to save
Jesus responsible for lots of wars including crusades and the sacking of Jerusalem .100s of million dead
From christian eyes Jesus is a good contender .
I never studied Jewish prophecy can only see through christian eyes however trying to see from your eyes is difficult .

Because it is difficult, let me make it simple for you:
for someone to be a moshiach, he must be anointed by particular oil. As Jesus is never named in the text, and he is never anointed, he can't be the moshiach.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Because it is difficult, let me make it simple for you:
for someone to be a moshiach, he must be anointed by particular oil. As Jesus is never named in the text, and he is never anointed, he can't be the moshiach.

Yes is a dilemma , Jesus was anointed many times including the Magi
Also from bible
Mark 6:13, the disciples anoint the sick and heal them. In Mark 14:3-9, Mary anoints Jesus' feet as an act of worship. In James 5:14, the church elders anoint the sick with oil for healing. In Hebrews 1:8-9, God says to Christ as He returns triumphantly to heaven, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever," and God anoints Jesus "with the oil of gladness."

However what really scares myself , knowing full well the death and destruction the moshiach creates.
You continue to pray 3 x day for his return , is like you wish death and destruction on this world . With a passion you pray to bring destruction .
To myself is uncomprehendable , maybe your moshiach when he return is the Antichrist ,False messiah .
Is only then Jesus will return once again to raize Jerusalem from history .

 

[rosends]

Yes is a dilemma , Jesus was anointed many times including the Magi
Also from bible
Mark 6:13, the disciples anoint the sick and heal them. In Mark 14:3-9, Mary anoints Jesus' feet as an act of worship. In James 5:14, the church elders anoint the sick with oil for healing. In Hebrews 1:8-9, God says to Christ as He returns triumphantly to heaven, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever," and God anoints Jesus "with the oil of gladness."

However what really scares myself , knowing full well the death and destruction the moshiach creates.
You continue to pray 3 x day for his return , is like you wish death and destruction on this world . With a passion you pray to bring destruction .
To myself is uncomprehendable , maybe your mashiach when he return is the Antichrist ,False messiah .
Is only then Jesus will return to once again raize Jerusalem from history .

mary did not anoint his feet because a) she didn't have access to, or use the special oil for anointing
b) she was not in the position to anoint a king or priest
c) one is not anointed on the feet.

so, no to jesus

the disciples did not "anoint" the sick with the special oil, and they didn't turn the sick into messiahs...did they?

there is no "oil of gladness" -- that is an invention which doesn't conform with the original rules

and to clarify (because, as you say, this is difficult for you) -- we do not pray for anyone's return. since the messiah ever came, why would we ask for his return?

and in judaism, there is no "anti_messiah" so i have no idea what you are thinking.

 

[Ingledsva]

Your heathen , idolater , infidel by default ?
How on earth can anything you say be taken seriously your agenda by default is obstruction .
moshiah is saviour
By default the mashiach will help or save

Obviously you don't understand how funny and transparent it is when you attack the person, - saying thus the information can't be taken seriously, - rather than the actual information.

Did you even notice that I linked to a Jewish site for the information?

Those were quotes from the site!

But you could also go to any Christian site and they will tell you the meaning is Anointed.

"The term "mashiach" literally means the anointed one, and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the Latter Days. He will be the very real king of a very real Torah government in the Land of Israel: not some "spiritual" or "symbolic" king in Israel, as some have mistakenly thought (especially Christians), and certainly not some gifted Jewish spiritual leader outside the Land of Israel, as others have mistakenly thought (including thousands of Jews in our generation as well as the followers of earlier false Jewish "mashiachs" in generations past). It should be mentioned that while it is not forbidden to foolishly believe that one is the mashiach despite that he is not, it is certainly not the sign of a good grasp of the Torah to be mislead as to his nature and role, described more fully below.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior". " http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm

*

 

[rosends]

Obviously you don't understand how funny and transparent it is when you attack the person, - saying thus the information can't be taken seriously, - rather than the actual information.

Did you even notice that I linked to a Jewish site for the information?

Those were quotes from the site!

But you could also go to any Christian site and they will tell you the meaning is Anointed.

"The term "mashiach" literally means the anointed one, and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the Latter Days. He will be the very real king of a very real Torah government in the Land of Israel: not some "spiritual" or "symbolic" king in Israel, as some have mistakenly thought (especially Christians), and certainly not some gifted Jewish spiritual leader outside the Land of Israel, as others have mistakenly thought (including thousands of Jews in our generation as well as the followers of earlier false Jewish "mashiachs" in generations past). It should be mentioned that while it is not forbidden to foolishly believe that one is the mashiach despite that he is not, it is certainly not the sign of a good grasp of the Torah to be mislead as to his nature and role, described more fully below.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior". " http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/mashiach.htm

*

yes, but take a look at his attitude about Jews and Judaism...

 

[Tumah]

I think you can (and should) understand the Tanakh without Jesus. But you cannot understand Jesus without the Tanakh.

That's probably true. But it also opens up some questions regarding the validity of the NT's claim, which is what I'm trying to bring out here.

 

[Tumah]

Messiah or mashiach ? Which would you prefer

I use the word "messiah" when speaking English.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

yes, but take a look at his attitude about Jews and Judaism...

"The anointed one as priest sacrifices animals and enters the holy of holies. If you want to say that therefore the anointed one saves, then by that logic, anyone who leads in a war or sacrifices animals, even not anointed, saves"

Those your own words the anointed one brings death and destruction . In 2016 all I'm saying the D &D you pray for 3 x a day , will be nuclear and kill billions .
I don't even pray once for armegeddon ever !

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I use the word "messiah" when speaking English.

Our translation of messiah is saviour , your not exactly being truthful here are you .

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

There is no Jesus here for obvious reasons .
Satanic religions that wish & pray for the suffering of others en mass .
Jesus wants no part of you

 

[rosends]

"The anointed one as priest sacrifices animals and enters the holy of holies. If you want to say that therefore the anointed one saves, then by that logic, anyone who leads in a war or sacrifices animals, even not anointed, saves"

Those your own words the anointed one brings death and destruction . In 2016 all I'm saying the D &D you pray for 3 x a day , will be nuclear and kill billions .
I don't even pray once for armegeddon ever !

I never said that the anointed one brings death and destruction. You did. Post 71. These are your words, not mine.