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There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

Sumadji

Member
Could you offer a standard definition of "empirical" that renders "non-empirical existence" cognitively meaningful?
Nature ends at the boundary of time and space. The dimension of nature is like a room in a house, with walls of time and space. But it's just one of perhaps infinite other rooms. All material existence ends at the singularity that defines nature. But there is more. There are seers and others who sense echoes and vibrations from 'beyond the veil'.

People experience the power of spirit, God, all the time.

It's the twins in the womb. One says: this is all. How could we live without the umbilical? The other says: I hear stuff from outside. There's more to it
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Could you offer a standard definition of "empirical" that renders "non-empirical existence" cognitively meaningful?

Nature ends at the boundary of time and space. The dimension of nature is like a room in a house, with walls of time and space. But it's just one of perhaps infinite other rooms. All material existence ends at the singularity that defines nature. But there is more. There are seers and others who sense echoes and vibrations from 'beyond the veil'.

People experience the power of spirit, God, all the time.

It's the twins in the womb. One says: this is all. How could we live without the umbilical? The other says: I hear stuff from outside. There's more to it

Let me know when you choose to answer my question.
 

Sumadji

Member
We're talking about Matthew 1:18-25, not Isaiah 7:14. Referring to the former as a "mistranslation" is not credible.
I accept that. But we don't know. Matthew probably took a couple of artistic liberties, in his attempt to record in writing the life of Jesus Christ but so did the other early historians. It doesn't negate the overall record. I'm not saying Matthew was a historian either. Perhaps Mary was a virgin. It's all about the miracle of the incarnation. It's deep stuff that has been the subject of libraries of pages of writing and thought down the ages
Let me know when you choose to answer my question.
Sorry. What didn't I get right? Should we google a definition?
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
The New Testament was written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.

There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament.
The four gospels were written and circulated anonymously and the traditional authorship was secondarily assigned towards the end of the second century CE. There is not a single first person claim to being an eye witness to Jesus' life.
That was poorly phrased. You should have said that the Gospels were written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.

I Peter is accepted as being a legit letter from Peter by the majority of New Testament scholars - both Christian and non-Christian. Peter claims to have witnessed Jesus' suffering in 1 Peter 5:1. It does not take a belief in anything supernatural to accept that Jesus suffered and the Peter witnessed it. Peter was an eyewitness to Jesus and his statement that he saw Jesus suffer is an account.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That was poorly phrased. You should have said that the Gospels were written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.
I simply repeated what was said in the video, which means that the Gospels were written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.
I Peter is accepted as being a legit letter from Peter by the majority of New Testament scholars - both Christian and non-Christian. Peter claims to have witnessed Jesus' suffering in 1 Peter 5:1. It does not take a belief in anything supernatural to accept that Jesus suffered and the Peter witnessed it. Peter was an eyewitness to Jesus and his statement that he saw Jesus suffer is an account.
Claiming to be an eyewitness in a text is not proof that Peter witnessed it. Peter's statement that he saw Jesus suffer is only an account in a book.

The authorship of 1 Peter has traditionally been attributed to the Apostle Peter because it bears his name and identifies him as its author (1:1). Although the text identifies Peter as its author, the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter have led most scholars to conclude that it is pseudonymous.
First Epistle of Peter - Wikipedia
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Then how can you know that there is "non-empirical existence" in the first place?
It sounds like you're just wishing something into existence.
It sounds like that guy in the Pink Floyd song... "You can't have any pudding unless you eat your meat. How can you have any pudding if you don't ear your meat?"

To paraphrase the Baha'i argument... "How can there be empirical evidence for something that can be seen or detected in anyway? If you can't see it and detect it, how can there be any empirical evidence for it? Yet, we know God and this invisible spiritual world exists, because our prophet said so. You can stick you head in the sand and deny it, but just wait until you die and find out it was real. Boy, won't you look silly then."
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
To paraphrase the Baha'i argument... "How can there be empirical evidence for something that can be seen or detected in anyway? If you can't see it and detect it, how can there be any empirical evidence for it?
Well, how can there be empirical evidence for something that cannot be seen or detected?
Nobody seems to be able to answer that question.
 

SDavis

Member
The New Testament was written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.

There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament. The four gospels were written and circulated anonymously and the traditional authorship was secondarily assigned towards the end of the second century CE. There is not a single first person claim to being an eye witness to Jesus' life.

Given what I said above, which is explained in the video below, what logical reason would anyone have to believe that the Gospels are an accurate depiction of the life of Jesus? Why should we believe that what these anonymous authors wrote about Jesus is true?

Personally I can't say as an absolute there were not eyewitness accounts.

The apostles traveled, though it can't be proven or disproven the apostles who are called Matthew, Mark, John, and Peter, may have actually told the Greek writers what happened from their point of view....... The books attributed to Paul may also have been copied then hidden for safekeeping, also lost in time.

Some Greeks loved record keeping, & writing, and those writers heard or was told of the apostle speeches and had a keen interest in what the apostles said. Decided to write their stories down, doing what we would call today say interviewed them.

Because there are no original copies available - one cannot say as an absolute one way or the other. One cannot say as an absolute there were no eye witness.

One day they may be found, the Catholic Church or Church of England may have hiden them somewhere, lost in time.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
I simply repeated what was said in the video, which means that the Gospels were written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.

Claiming to be an eyewitness in a text is not proof that Peter witnessed it. Peter's statement that he saw Jesus suffer is only an account in a book.

The authorship of 1 Peter has traditionally been attributed to the Apostle Peter because it bears his name and identifies him as its author (1:1). Although the text identifies Peter as its author, the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter have led most scholars to conclude that it is pseudonymous.
First Epistle of Peter - Wikipedia
Is anything in your OP a position that you own for yourself?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Religions have jargon which they use and which can make communication difficult with people who aren't initiated a bit into the jargon.
Of course. But its something outsiders have to simply accept. Every group has the right to develop a vocabulary they need to express their views to one another, even if this makes things difficult for outsiders.
I have noticed some religions, and in this case, Baha'i, changes the normal definition of some words.
In this case the Baha'is want "resurrection" to mean what they say happens when a person dies physically and their soul leaves the body and goes to heaven.
This seems to be a complete denial of the usual way "resurrection" is used throughout the Bible, but Baha'is want to say that the Biblical use is actually their useage.
With Baha'i normal English seems to mean nothing at times and they can say "black" actually means "white" and not bat an eyelid.
This goes beyond what the differences in translation can be between the Jewish Tanakh and a Christian Old Testament. It's not a matter of translation.
I think you are raging about one group, when every religious group does this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where I live if you get selected for service then you go.
But if you ever are on a jury you can ask the judge to enquire further about evidence that you think is 'strange' in any way.
I've gone when requested to appear for jury duty. I spoke to the judge about the reason why it would not be to the benefit of the court to put me on a jury. He dismissed me and actually praised me for my honesty. That was the last time I went before the judge. Before that another judge got rancorous and dismissed me in a harsh way. But he dismissed me. :) The last time I appeared I rephrased my presentation to the judge as to why it would not be fruitful to put me on the jury. It was a different judge anyway.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the presumption by the German textual critics that there is no such thing as the supernatural is all the evidence you have that Mark was written after 70AD
In history, science, indeed all over the real world, the supernatural is not taken to be anything found in the world external to the self. Indeed, as you're aware, the only way it and its elements are known to exist is as concepts, notions, things imagined in individual brains.

And the evidence that the author of Mark used Josephus' Wars to model his trial scene is something you can check out for yourself.
Do you think that there was no trial of Jesus? or is it that you think that Mark could not possibly know what happened at the trial? or what?
It is highly improbable that persons charged with causing civil unrest would be interviewed by Pilate in private. And if that were the case, there would be no record of it available to the author of Mark, and even more so 45 years after the alleged event.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Sorry but you are wrong. Sadly there is no point in even trying to help you since you refuse to learn that basics of science. Perhaps you do that so that you can deny the obvious evidence without openly lying. That is the risk of learning what is and what is not evidence. To support creationism you would not only have to lie. You would have to know that you are lying.
I think what you don't understand is that I "understand" the basics you speak of. Whether I agree with them is another story. Be that as it may, have a good one as the current saying goes.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
They were anonymous to the extent that the authors did not write their names in them. That does not mean that the books turned up in congregations without people knowing something about who wrote them. Traditions have to start somewhere.
They were anonymous meaning that no one had any idea who wrote them, nor at that time was there any claim as to who wrote them.

Sometimes traditions have a root in something historical, but most of the time they do not. Traditions can be entirely fabricated, or based on misunderstandings.

Sally's husband asked her why she always cut off both ends of the roast before putting into the oven. Sally said, I don't know. It's the way my mom taught me to do it.

So Sally goes to her mom and asks why. The mother replies, I don't know. It's just how grandma taught me to do it.

So Sally's mom goes and asks grandma. Grandma says, "Well, it's because our pan was too small."
Tradition is just part of what we call "history".
No it is not. Sometimes it can be related to history, but don't confuse it with history. Tradition is something that is passed down because it is meaningful, not because it is factual. History on the other hand is not based on whether someone likes it. It is based on evidence such as reliable sources or archeological finds.
Maybe it is considered less reliable, but written history can begin with oral tradition, which gets written down.
Absolutely not. History is never based on tradition. In the first century, the science of history was in its infancy. Even well recognized historians like Josephus weren't that careful of their sources. But today, history does consider tradition or stories orally passed down to be legitimate sources.
The traditions about who wrote which gospels do fit the internal evidence we have from the gospels and other parts of the New Testament however.
What "internal evidence" do you have that John wrote the gospel of John, or that Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew? Absolutely none.
From what I can see, the only evidence there is, is that the traditional authors are the right ones.
There is no evidence of ANY particular author. In fact, if you consider the textual analysis, the gospels all had more than one author whose works were spliced together.
Those that want us to believe otherwise seem to be basing their argument on the idea that the supernatural is not true
No, it's based on the lack of affirmative evidence, and actual evidence to the contrary.
and so Jesus could not have prophesied about the Temple destruction and so the gospels were written after 70AD and so they are lies from the start and probably by people who did not know Jesus or know his followers.
Because although many views may be possible, not every view is plausible. If there is a perfectly natural explanation for something, it makes no sense to ascribe a supernatural reason. Did I use this example with you earlier?

This morning when I woke up, there were sprinkles of cat litter on the floor near the litter box.
A. My cat used the box during the night, and tracked a bit of litter out.
B. Angels visited my home and levitated the litter from the box to the floor.

Do you see from that how unreasonable it is to claim a supernatural reason when there is a perfectly natural explanation?
It diminishes it as much as being a conservative scholar of the Bible diminishes a person's scholarship.
Theologians are only one kind of scholar, and their expertise is in the interpretation of the texts. The scholars I'm speaking of are the experts in textual analysis, which is science, not religion. Since none of the gospels say, "I, Matthew (or whatever) am writing this to you that ye may...", the authorship of the books is not the purview of theologians. It is the purview of textual critics.
 
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