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There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Jesus did, if the New Testament is to be believed.
Yeah, in unverifiable stories in an old book.

Using that logic, Harry Potter books demonstrate the existence of magic.
The fact a person chooses not to believe Jesus did the things he is reported to have done, makes it simply a contest of beliefs? It's one belief against another.
Which is why I'm looking for EVIDENCE.

People can and do believe anything. I've got two people right now in this thread claiming that some supernatural realm exists, but can't show it to me or anyone else.

People report miraculous healings all over the world all the time, against all medical knowledge.
Just claiming something is supernatural is not a demonstration of the existence of the supernatural.
The fact a person doesn't like the idea that Jesus performed miracles, regardless of how, doesn't mean it didn't happen
It's got nothing to do with "liking the idea" of anything. It has everything to do with a lack of evidence for the claim being made. Please notice that you haven't offered any.

"People believe in miraculous events" is not evidence for the existence of supernatural anything. It's evidence that human beings can be incredulous.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Swedenborg may have thought that, but can you show me a Biblical passage where "resurrection" has that meaning? I don't know, maybe you can show me one where you can twist it around to mean that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but if so, it contradicts the many others where "resurrection" means what it means in the normal sense of the word, and which Baha'is have to reject in favor of Baha'i teaching.
Baha'is believe they have been enlightened... they have been given special knowledge into the secret way that God inspired people to write the Bible stories.

The stories sound like they happened in a literal way, but the "true" spiritual person that has had their eyes opened by the Baha'i Faith, sees the true, spiritual, symbolic way of interpreting those stories.

So, let me it a try... The parting of the seas. The Hebrew people were lost in a sea of ignorance until Moses lifted his hands towards God. The light of the knowledge of God came down and parted those seas to where the people could see the truth of God and move forward.

Darkness and error tried to accompany the Hebrews into the light, as symbolized by the Egyptian army. They had the power of material insight, symbolized by spears and chariots. But the material power proved to be powerless against the light of truth and was swallowed up.

To a Baha'i, that gives the story some profound spiritual meaning. Which is much greater to them, then what believe the story in a literal way could give. They do feel like they were blind but now they see. The veils have been removed and now they see the light of truth.

The poor lost souls that are stuck in the literal story have blinded themselves by not being able to see this deeper, true, spiritual meanings.

Again, a real example of this type of interpretation... Abdul Baha' on the resurrection...

Question: What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?​
Answer: The resurrection of the Manifestations of God is not of the body. All that pertains to Them—all Their states and conditions, all that They do, found, teach, interpret, illustrate, and instruct—is of a mystical and spiritual character and does not belong to the realm of materiality.​
Such is the case of Christ’s coming from heaven. It has been explicitly stated in numerous passages of the Gospel that the Son of man came down from heaven, or is in heaven, or will go up to heaven. Thus in John 6:38 it is said: “For I came down from heaven”, and in John 6:42 it is recorded: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”, and in John 3:13 it is stated: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”​
Consider how it is said that the Son of man is in heaven, even though at that time Christ was dwelling upon the earth. Consider likewise that it explicitly says that Christ came from heaven, although He came from the womb of Mary and His body was born of her. It is therefore clear that the assertion that the Son of man came down from heaven has a mystical rather than a literal meaning, and is a spiritual rather than a material event. The meaning is that though in appearance Christ was born of the womb of Mary, yet in reality He came from heaven, the seat of the Sun of Truth that shines in the divine realm of the supernal Kingdom. And since it is established that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the divine Kingdom, His disappearance into the earth for three days must also have a mystical rather than a literal meaning. In the same manner, His resurrection from the bosom of the earth is a mystical matter and expresses a spiritual rather than a material condition. And His ascension to heaven, likewise, is spiritual and not material in nature.​
Aside from this, it has been established by science that the material heaven is a limitless space, void and empty, wherein countless stars and planets move.​
We explain, therefore, the meaning of Christ’s resurrection in the following way: After the martyrdom of Christ, the Apostles were perplexed and dismayed. The reality of Christ, which consists in His teachings, His bounties, His perfections, and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and had no outward appearance or manifestation—indeed, it was as though it were entirely lost. For those who truly believed were few in number, and even those few were perplexed and dismayed. The Cause of Christ was thus as a lifeless body. After three days the Apostles became firm and steadfast, arose to aid the Cause of Christ, resolved to promote the divine teachings and practise their Lord’s admonitions, and endeavoured to serve Him. Then did the reality of Christ become resplendent, His grace shine forth, His religion find new life, and His teachings and admonitions become manifest and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ, which was like unto a lifeless body, was quickened to life and surrounded by the grace of the Holy Spirit.​
Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy did not grasp the meaning of the Gospels and did not comprehend this mystery, it has been claimed that religion is opposed to science, for among other things the ascension of Christ in a physical body to the material heavens is contrary to the mathematical sciences. But when the truth of this matter is clarified and this symbol is explained, it is in no way contradicted by science but rather affirmed by both science and reason.​
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, The Resurrection of Christ​
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Yeah, in unverifiable stories in an old book.
Using that logic, Harry Potter books demonstrate the existence of magic.
Are you really comparing the New Testament to Harry Potter? I think it places you, actually. For a start Harry Potter was clearly written as fiction. You can call the NT 'an old book of stories' but it's a bit more than that. It has inspired the greatest thinkers and artists and architecture and writing from king to beggar for 2000 years, and here we are still talking about it.

However, this sort of reasoning can just go on.
Just claiming something is supernatural is not a demonstration of the existence of the supernatural.
That's the point. Where do you draw the line?
It's got nothing to do with "liking the idea" of anything. It has everything to do with a lack of evidence for the claim being made. Please notice that you haven't offered any.
I can offer evidence of someone I know very well stricken with incurable cancer, adjudged so by expert oncologists, a vocal atheist, whose wife persuaded him to pray with her and many others around the world to Jesus the divine healer for full recovery, and who is now fully cancer free to the amazement of medical experts of long standing. He knows it's a miracle.

I can offer evidence from my own path, of spiritual guidance. That's the only evidence that can be offered because that's the way of the Spirit -- its non empirical.

Of course you will mock my reasoning.

In the end there's no way to show evidence that Jesus did or did not raise Lazarus or feed the 5000.
"People believe in miraculous events" is not evidence for the existence of supernatural anything. It's evidence that human beings can be incredulous.
But not always. There are inexplicable things

But that's probably the end of it. The material world demands material evidence for non-material existence outside of and permeating and weaving the spacetime dimension of nature.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Are you really comparing the New Testament to Harry Potter?
Yep.
Please notice that instead of responding to the point, you've taken offense or something.
I think it places you, actually.
It places me in the position of trying to demonstrate something to you that you seem to have missed because you're offended by the comparison.
For a start Harry Potter was clearly written as fiction. You can call the NT 'an old book of stories' but it's a bit more than that. It has inspired the greatest thinkers and artists and architecture and writing from king to beggar for 2000 years, and here we are still talking about it.
So have many other stories and books over the millennia. People have also been inspired by Shakespeare's works. Doesn't make them true.
And they don't need to be true in order to be inspirational.
However, this sort of reasoning can just go on.
You've not provided any reasoning, thus far.
That's the point. Where do you draw the line?I
As I've said about four times now, with EVIDENCE.
can offer evidence of someone I know very well stricken with incurable cancer, adjudged so by expert oncologists, a vocal atheist, whose wife persuaded him to pray with her and many others around the world to Jesus the divine healer for full recovery, and who is now fully cancer free to the amazement of medical experts of long standing. He knows it's a miracle.
How and why do you think that's evidence of the existence of the supernatural?
I can offer evidence from my own path, of spiritual guidance. That's the only evidence that can be offered because that's the way of the Spirit -- its non empirical.
You could offer some sort of explanation as to how you think these things demonstrate the existence of the supernatural, rather than just assertions.
Of course you will mock my reasoning.
If you think that questioning your reasoning amounts to "mocking" it, then I'm not sure what to tell you other than it isn't.
In the end there's no way to show evidence that Jesus did or did not raise Lazarus or feed the 5000.But not always. There are inexplicable things
So you're just claiming "supernatural" without any evidence.
Don't be surprised then, when it's rejected for lacking in evidence.
But that's probably the end of it. The material world demands material evidence for non-material existence outside of and permeating and weaving the spacetime dimension of nature.
Again you're just claiming "non-material" existence without any demonstration of such.
Which is the entire point of contention here.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
True, there were groups that rejected the teachings of the apostles.

Sorry, that is an assumption on your part. How would you prove that your version of the Bible is the right version?
Yes I deny scholarship that automatically goes for a writing date of post 70AD because of the destruction of the Temple prophecy.
Now you appear to be making false charges against your neighbors. How would you prove that is the case?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
... incurable cancer, adjudged so by expert oncologists, ...

Do you honestly believe that this is comparable to the display asserted in Matthew 27:51-53?

There are, indeed, inexplicable things, and a serious flaw of naturalism is that it can strangle our capacity for awe. But one can be open to awe without embracing and promoting gullibility. Sometimes the appropriate answer is not the god-of-the-gaps but, simply, "I don't know."
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Matthew 27:51-53
"At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

A bit of artistic liberty comparable to Josephus and to Quintus Curtius Rufus's biography of Alexander the Great. But it doesn't take away from the overall cast of Jesus as a healer and miracle worker or magician, however he achieved it.
There are, indeed, inexplicable things, and a serious flaw of naturalism is that it can strangle our capacity for awe. But one can be open to awe without embracing and promoting gullibility. Sometimes the appropriate answer is not the god-of-the-gaps but, simply, "I don't know."
Absolutely
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Yep.
Please notice that instead of responding to the point, you've taken offense or something.

It places me in the position of trying to demonstrate something to you that you seem to have missed because you're offended by the comparison.

So have many other stories and books over the millennia. People have also been inspired by Shakespeare's works. Doesn't make them true.
And they don't need to be true in order to be inspirational.

You've not provided any reasoning, thus far.

As I've said about four times now, with EVIDENCE.

How and why do you think that's evidence of the existence of the supernatural?

You could offer some sort of explanation as to how you think these things demonstrate the existence of the supernatural, rather than just assertions.

If you think that questioning your reasoning amounts to "mocking" it, then I'm not sure what to tell you other than it isn't.

So you're just claiming "supernatural" without any evidence.
Don't be surprised then, when it's rejected for lacking in evidence.

Again you're just claiming "non-material" existence without any demonstration of such.
Which is the entire point of contention here.
Ok. Let's just say 'Hitch' and the other 'new atheists' are worlds apart from me, lol.

I've no problem with what they believe. It's what they believe.

End of the day I didn't come here to wrangle endlessly with Hitch fanboys and other new atheists demanding empirical evidence for non-empirical spirit that is only sensed in quietness and humility, expressed by all spiritual teachers from Buddha to Christ.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Ok. Let's just say 'Hitch' and the other 'new atheists' are worlds apart from me, lol.
Not sure what this has to do with our current conversation. Could you elucidate?
I've no problem with what they believe. It's what they believe.
Okay. Again, not sure how this is a response to the content of my post.
End of the day I didn't come here to wrangle endlessly with Hitch fanboys and other new atheists demanding empirical evidence for non-empirical spirit that is only sensed in quietness and humility, expressed by all spiritual teachers from Buddha to Christ.
And again, none of this is a response to anything I've said in the post you're responding to.
You have no idea whether or not I'm a "Hitch fanboy" and that's completely irrelevant to our conversation anyway.

It sounds like you're just using it as an excuse to dismiss everything posted to you. I mean, you didn't respond to one single thing I wrote and instead just attempted to call me names so you could brush me off. Does this sort of thing pass for intellectual discourse in the circles you frequent?
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Not sure what this has to do with our current conversation. Could you elucidate?
Elucidate why it appears to me that you come from the 'Hitch' fanboy new atheist school?
Okay. Again, not sure how this is a response to the content of my post.
I've responded: there's no empirical evidence for non-empirical existence. If you need explanation: eternal spirit weaves and permeates the changing timespace dimension of nature. It's familiar in all 'religions' as the choice between God and Mammon. It's the teaching of quietness and humility and submission to the will of the divine. It goes through all spiritual thought, from earliest Taoism and Hinduism.

It's the core of all.

It's found inside.

Change yourself and you change the world around you.

And again, none of this is a response to anything I've said in the post you're responding to.
My response is that if all you have to offer is to keep demanding empirical evidence for non-empirical states, there's nothing more to discuss really? Unless you really enjoy wrangling? If that's your thing, go on -- but count me out please. It's tedious and repetitive and life's too short ...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I can offer evidence of someone I know very well stricken with incurable cancer, adjudged so by expert oncologists, a vocal atheist, whose wife persuaded him to pray with her and many others around the world to Jesus the divine healer for full recovery, and who is now fully cancer free to the amazement of medical experts of long standing. He knows it's a miracle.

I can offer evidence from my own path, of spiritual guidance. That's the only evidence that can be offered because that's the way of the Spirit -- its non empirical.
I can offer evidence of a neighbor of mine, who I have known for 15 years. Well over seven years ago he was told by the doctors that he only had six months to live. Some time ago he opted to have no further medical intervention since there is no cure for his liver and kidney diseases. He is still alive and lives in his own home and he even drives and gets out of the house. I consider this a miracle, as do his parents, who are very strong Christians. I have no doubt that divine intervention has taken place.

I could offer evidence of divine intervention I believe has taken place in my own life, but I prefer not to offer any details because I do not want to be mocked.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Elucidate why it appears to me that you come from the 'Hitch' fanboy new atheist school?
Elucidate as to what it has to do with the content of our discussion.
I've responded: there's no empirical evidence for non-empirical existence
So then you have no evidence and you believe something that doesn't have any evidence demonstrating that it actually exists.

How does that work?
. If you need explanation: eternal spirit weaves and permeates the changing timespace dimension of nature. It's familiar in all 'religions' as the choice between God and Mammon. It's the teaching of quietness and humility and submission to the will of the divine. It goes through all spiritual thought, from earliest Taoism and Hinduism.
This is word salad.
It's the core of all.
More word salad.
It's found inside.
Woo woo
Change yourself and you change the world around you.
More woo woo
My response is that if all you have to offer is to keep demanding empirical evidence for non-empirical states, there's nothing more to discuss really? Unless you really enjoy wrangling? If that's your thing, go on -- but count me out please. It's tedious and repetitive and life's too short ...
If all you have to offer is world salad, dismissal, and woo woo, then you don't have much to offer.

You're just describing things that don't exist and pretending as though they do. :shrug:
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Might this also be true of the virgin birth and the resurrection?
I can personally allow the virgin Mary as mistranslation for a young woman. The resurrection is far more complex, starting with Paul, as the first Christian writer, before the Gospels, along with the Eucharistic sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, ending the sacrifice of blood upon the altar which had become a corruption of the original concept of giving to God a valuable animal from the herd, and replacing in the form of bread and wine?
 
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