There are no polytheists in the West.

[-Peacemaker-]

King, just like myself, you are a work in progress. Think about things for a moment, Gentiles have been recruting pagans for all history. Most likely you have attended church somewhere that had stained glass windows or you color eggs at easter or bring a tree into your house at Christmas time. The pagans have affected our lives and our religion as much as we have them. Do you really believe Jesus was born on Dec. 25th?

Practice your religion how you see fit, but if you think about it, if not for the Catholics, we would have not had a religion to branch away from.

How long do you think people who are evangelicals have been practicing their religion? Not that long in the scheme of things. To say that any branch of faith has things right and everyone else is going to burn in hell is not a healthy way of believing.

Myself, I leave it to the Lord to sort out. It's not our job to judge brother Jungle.

I just don't understand why you feel the need to pick other religions apart. It is as if your looking for a reason to condem them to hell fire.

Do I think I have all the answers? Absolutely not! Right now I am worried about your and my diet. Do we really want to eat pork? Are we absolutely sure it is OK?

What allows us to eat pork? Faith right? Maybe just maybe other religions just might have faith as well and just maybe amazing grace will prevail over mans judgement.

I'm so glad I don't have to judge others, which is why I wonder why you are so quick to run to judgement.

I love you brother Jungle, I ask you to pray about this. I hope you find peace and understanding.

The reality is that a Christian needs to be able to speak the truth in love. Nobody is being done any favors if someone goes wayward and people just look the other way. For the Christian, the Bible is truly a sword and contains truth that strikes at the heart as it does pronounce judgement upon those who engage in certain behaviors. It requires one to wield it gently instead of cutting others down. Admittingly, I'm just not a good enough person at this point in my walk to speak the truth in love the way I should. I think I am improving however. I appreciate your kindness and patience with me and I love you to bro.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And what the **** does that have to do with the Bible? You gave some verses and all I can tell from them is that you think that the commonality between all the listed idols and entities is that people trusted in them. That doesn't mean the Bible justifies that definition as the one and only, or even as one of the definitions at all though.

Or rather, why should we choose your arbitrary definition over the one in the dictionary?

This is about defining things in a practical sense perhaps more so than a religious one. From what you've described about your belief system, practically speaking, I don't see it as anything more than rationalism mixed with some occult elements. As far as actual implications for your life, apart from getting to experience some things I probably describe as kind of spooky but that you probably enjoy, it seems as if Satan pretty much just encourages you to follow the biggest religion of the secular West: rationalism. You may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion, It may satisfy the desire you have to tap into the supernatural (a desire that most human beings seem to have), but does it have any actual significant effect upon the course of your life besides just encouraging you to do what you want to do?

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Just out of curiosity, is there even one Westerner that identifies as a "polytheist" that follows a god that doesn't encourage or even frowns upon an adherence to "rationalism"?

 

[Me Myself]

Just out of curiosity, is there even one Westerner that identifies as a "polytheist" that follows a god that doesn't encourage adherence to "rationalism"?

If by rationalism you bean...being rational... then...

I don´t get it, why would you want to be irrational?

I mean I see worship as something that has more to do with emotion than rationality, but I don´t see it as CONTRADICTORY to rationality at all. If that was the case I would have a problem.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If by rationalism you bean...being rational... then...

I don´t get it, why would you want to be irrational?

I mean I see worship as something that has more to do with emotion than rationality, but I don´t see it as CONTRADICTORY to rationality at all. If that was the case I would have a problem.

We're talking about a philosophical outlook.

ra·tion·al·ism

   /ˈræʃənlˌɪzəm/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[rash-uh-nl-iz-uhm] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. the principle or habit of accepting reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct.

2. Philosophy . a. the doctrine that reason alone is a source of knowledge and is independent of experience.

b. (in the philosophies of Descartes, Spinoza, etc.) the doctrine that all knowledge is expressible in self-evident propositions or their consequences.



3. Theology . the doctrine that human reason, unaided by divine revelation, is an adequate or the sole guide to all attainable religious truth.

 

[Me Myself]

This is about defining things in a practical sense perhaps more so than a religious one. From what you've described about your belief system, practically speaking, I don't see it as anything more than rationalism mixed with some occult elements. As far as actual implications for your life, apart from getting to experience some things I probably describe as kind of spooky but that you probably enjoy, it seems as if Satan pretty much just encourages you to follow the biggest religion of the secular West: rationalism. You may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion, It may satisfy the desire you have to tap into the supernatural (a desire that most human beings seem to have), but does it have any actual significant effect upon the course of your life besides just encouraging you to do what you want to do?

Worshipping Shiva and Ganesh makes me happy. It remembers me virtues I want to be more in tune with like unconditional love, de-attachment, peace, trying to ease other people´s pain.

It also eases some pain off me. It remembers me that I am bigger than any emotional tension I may have, and that there is an upper road in any trial I may feel inmy life in any moment. That I can look and ask for wisdom and comprehension to act the best way in each situation. In a way that makes me feel happy, makes others feel happy, spreads light and understanding.

Shiva remembers me that even the most "monstrous" looking may be full of blessings. Tha things end, but that this is good. That in the ends there is higher wisdom, there is learning. That we are all part of this learning and comprehension if we choose to be and are able to see that level.

Ganesh I feel teaches me about simplicity, about how to be humble, about trying to be kind in am ore direct way. With Shiva is more about sometimes how you will say things that apparently hurt, but people need to hear so they can grow. With Ganesh it is so that you can be kind and kindness in itself will help people grow.

Krishna and Jesus are very special to me too. Both fill a similar role though. I find myself quoting from them a lot because I think they put in words a lot of things that just feel right about how must one live this life according to the will of God and our own dharma, and the well being of our community. They both remember me how we are all God (well, every deity remembers me this in it´s own way) and how we can do our best to get along, even in carnal life with all it´s tribulations (Because both Krishna and Jesus did so)

So... does this better answer your question?

 

[Cassiopia]

my point with the OP before it was edited was to say that "polytheism" in the West is, generally speaking, simply rationalism and relevatism with some "pagan" trimmings. It bears little resemblance to the polytheism of the ancient world when practitioners truly believed that their gods determined every aspect of their lives. I tried to put a humorous and lighthearted touch in the OP and it came off the wrong way. My apologees. Let's try to continue the discussion however

Perhaps you have an over simplistic idea about Pagan traditions of the past which doesn't recognise some of the subtleties implicit in those traditions and the people who practised them? Anyhow, modern forms of Christianity probably bare little relationship to the way the religion was practised a thousand years ago either.

Many of us are 21st Century polytheists. Our religions combine traditions of the past with what is known now and is practised in the context of modern life.
There may well be aspects of rationalism and relativism in some modern pagan traditions. This only goes to show that Paganism is an adapting, and living tradition.

 

[Me Myself]

We're talking about a philosophical outlook.

ra·tion·al·ism

   /ˈræʃənlˌɪzəm/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[rash-uh-nl-iz-uhm] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. the principle or habit of accepting reason as the supreme authority in matters of opinion, belief, or conduct.

2. Philosophy . a. the doctrine that reason alone is a source of knowledge and is independent of experience.

b. (in the philosophies of Descartes, Spinoza, etc.) the doctrine that all knowledge is expressible in self-evident propositions or their consequences.



3. Theology . the doctrine that human reason, unaided by divine revelation, is an adequate or the sole guide to all attainable religious truth.

Reason without knowledge has no subject of analysis, and it is thus, dead.

I believe in experience AND reason. Both are codependent the way I see it.

 

[Me Myself]

I also want to add that both Jesus and Krishna remember me that it is not so important "the law" as it is the intention and the love and the effects you seek with your acts.

Both rebeled in their societies to teach a wisdom that is larger and more adaptive than that of any fixed or inflexible law.

If you know yourself and try to know others and the situation, and act with great love, it would bee very hard to do an immorality.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Worshipping Shiva and Ganesh makes me happy. It remembers me virtues I want to be more in tune with like unconditional love, de-attachment, peace, trying to ease other people´s pain.

It also eases some pain off me. It remembers me that I am bigger than any emotional tension I may have, and that there is an upper road in any trial I may feel inmy life in any moment. That I can look and ask for wisdom and comprehension to act the best way in each situation. In a way that makes me feel happy, makes others feel happy, spreads light and understanding.

Shiva remembers me that even the most "monstrous" looking may be full of blessings. Tha things end, but that this is good. That in the ends there is higher wisdom, there is learning. That we are all part of this learning and comprehension if we choose to be and are able to see that level.

Ganesh I feel teaches me about simplicity, about how to be humble, about trying to be kind in am ore direct way. With Shiva is more about sometimes how you will say things that apparently hurt, but people need to hear so they can grow. With Ganesh it is so that you can be kind and kindness in itself will help people grow.

Krishna and Jesus are very special to me too. Both fill a similar role though. I find myself quoting from them a lot because I think they put in words a lot of things that just feel right about how must one live this life according to the will of God and our own dharma, and the well being of our community. They both remember me how we are all God (well, every deity remembers me this in it´s own way) and how we can do our best to get along, even in carnal life with all it´s tribulations (Because both Krishna and Jesus did so)

So... does this better answer your question?

This is pretty much what I expected to hear and only confirms my contention that these religions are just offshoots of rationalism. There's alot of warm fuzzy feelings attached to the experience of what you call "worship". These gods may make suggestions on how one can best live their life but at the end of the day one's own sense of reason is what really determines the steps of someone with this outlook.

 

[Me Myself]

This is pretty much what I expected to hear and only confirms my contention that these religions are just offshoots of rationalism. There's alot of warm fuzzy feelings attached to the experience of what you call "worship". These gods may make suggestions on how one can best live their life but at the end of the day one's own sense of reason is what really determines the steps of someone with this outlook.

Morality is not about reason. If you took that out of what I wrote, you weren´t reading correctly

:slap:

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Worshipping Shiva and Ganesh makes me happy. It remembers me virtues I want to be more in tune with like unconditional love, de-attachment, peace, trying to ease other people´s pain.

It also eases some pain off me. It remembers me that I am bigger than any emotional tension I may have, and that there is an upper road in any trial I may feel inmy life in any moment. That I can look and ask for wisdom and comprehension to act the best way in each situation. In a way that makes me feel happy, makes others feel happy, spreads light and understanding.

Shiva remembers me that even the most "monstrous" looking may be full of blessings. Tha things end, but that this is good. That in the ends there is higher wisdom, there is learning. That we are all part of this learning and comprehension if we choose to be and are able to see that level.

Ganesh I feel teaches me about simplicity, about how to be humble, about trying to be kind in am ore direct way. With Shiva is more about sometimes how you will say things that apparently hurt, but people need to hear so they can grow. With Ganesh it is so that you can be kind and kindness in itself will help people grow.

Krishna and Jesus are very special to me too. Both fill a similar role though. I find myself quoting from them a lot because I think they put in words a lot of things that just feel right about how must one live this life according to the will of God and our own dharma, and the well being of our community. They both remember me how we are all God (well, every deity remembers me this in it´s own way) and how we can do our best to get along, even in carnal life with all it´s tribulations (Because both Krishna and Jesus did so)

So... does this better answer your question?

Me Myself: I actually read it very carefully. Not one time did I hear of any god which places any actual demand on your life. They make you happy. They make you feel good. They remind you of stuff. They teach you stuff. I didn't hear one thing that would lead me to believe that these gods would actually require one to take a step of faith. Not one thing that would lead me to believe that these gods would place an imposition upon one's own will.

 

[jasonwill2]

This is about defining things in a practical sense perhaps more so than a religious one. From what you've described about your belief system, practically speaking, I don't see it as anything more than rationalism mixed with some occult elements. As far as actual implications for your life, apart from getting to experience some things I probably describe as kind of spooky but that you probably enjoy, it seems as if Satan pretty much just encourages you to follow the biggest religion of the secular West: rationalism. You may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion, It may satisfy the desire you have to tap into the supernatural (a desire that most human beings seem to have), but does it have any actual significant effect upon the course of your life besides just encouraging you to do what you want to do?

I do not believe in rationalism. When you speak of my religion you speak nothing but ignorance. I trust in logic, yes, but my own five senses and emotions are first and foremost the ultimate arbiter of how I act and what I consider real. Perhaps this is my personality, perhaps it is more.

My religion is not "spooky", is down-right intense, very scary at times, and freaking hard. This isn't some watered down version of walk-in-the-park occultism but full on Satan Worship. It isn't mere encouragement, it's the feeling of Ha-Satan himself throwing me into the fires of Hell itself as I am purified in the torments of my trials, the challenges I am to overcome. It is my will that I shall overcome, so that I can have power, so it is that Ha-Satan's will that I fulfill my will, hence he acts as my Accuser and oppositional force (inspiration) for that goal, boot-camp style times 50.

Don't pretend for a moment that you could walk my walk, I have stared literal physical DEATH in the face, seen the very horrifying Heart of Darkness and Animal Within called my soul, seen years flash past me as I realized that Satan was working in those times, and screamed out to Satan as I perceived my life fading from me as the blood flowed... all in the pursuit of overcoming of the self to come out a stronger and better being. Each part there, are not describing one event, but 4 major events of Xeper for me.

I would hardly call the majority of my spiritual experiences as enjoyable, they are often painful, like reopening the wound to treat the infection. Satan is an accuser, and he loves to throw me against the wall and tell me how it really is, show me my pain, my rage, and my anger... and then put me in a situation at which I can't run from it and have to deal with it. Self-awareness, and this kind of thing, is very emotionally painful and I often end up in tears, screams, and fits of rage.

But guess what? When I can face it and accept it, I can then make my first steps on dealing with it. Like the infection that is treated, the wound can finally be left to heal... the scars will remain, but the wound itself will be healed, and it will make me stronger.

Do you know what my name means? Jason and Will? The 2? Jason means healer, and Will, short for William, means willpower coming from the name Wilhelm. So willpower and healing... part of the same (dual) being. That is me... a healer of great willpower, hence jasonwill2.

To equate my religion with cafeteria Satanism is ignorant at best, blasphemy at worst.

In Nomine Satana.

Just out of curiosity, is there even one Westerner that identifies as a "polytheist" that follows a god that doesn't encourage or even frowns upon an adherence to "rationalism"?

Pantheist and hard polytheist. Satan doesn't encourage anything in the sense that most would think, he merely encourages that which is the nature of the creature.

 

[Me Myself]

Me Myself: I actually read it very carefully. Not one time did I hear of any god which places any actual demand on your life. They make you happy. They make you feel good. They remind you of stuff. They teach you stuff. I didn't hear one thing that would lead me to believe that these gods would actually require one to take a step of faith. Not one thing that would lead me to believe that these gods would place an imposition on one's own will.

Let me give you a story, you seemed to miss:

Spoiler: Worthy of Worship

"We're getting ready to perform worship of Lord Indra," Nanda said.

"Lord Indra?"

"Yes, son. Indra is the king of the demigods and he brings the rain. We have to make sure that we thank him every year for helping us."

"But why do we have to thank him? Isn't it his duty to make the rain? After all, he is a servant of the Almighty and that is the job the Almighty gave him."

Nanda looked at Krishna with wide eyes. "Shhhh! You mustn't say things like that, Krishna. Lord Indra's wrath can be terrible."

"Are you frightened of him, Father?"

"Of course! Everyone is frightened of him. With one move he could destroy all Vraj."

Several of the village people murmured agreements as they worked near Krishna and Nanda.

Krishna looked around at them. "But surely someone with such a terrible temper is not worthy of worship. It's not good to be angry."

Nanda reached out and covered Krishna's mouth. "We have to be very careful when talking about Indra. He will punish us all."

Krishna moved his father's hand away. "But that's not right. No god should be worshipped out of fear. If Indra was truly praise-worthy then he wouldn't punish people for not worshipping him. It is the divine right of all to pray but it is not the duty of the gods to compel worship."

"Krishna, what do you propose we do?" one of the other village men asked. He was leaning on his staff. "Do we stop worshipping Indra just because you say so? This is our ancestral custom."

"But why? If Indra brings the rain then that is his duty, not his mercy. And if he is a tyrant and expects worship from us then that is not admirable.Only those who are kind and worthy deserve worship."

A crowd was growing around them as people came to hear what Krishna was saying.

"And who is worthy then, my darling?" Yashoda asked. She was walking towards them from the barn, carrying a pot of fresh milk.

"We are cowherds, Mother. Our lives are tied to the cows. They give us milk and butter that nourishes us. They plough the land that grows our grain and give rich fertiliser that keeps the land lush. So worship the cows, Mother."

Krishna continued. "And the cows cannot live without the forests, where they graze. So worship the forests of Vraj. And worship the river Yamuna who waters the trees with her nectar, keeping the forests green and bountiful. And worship Mount Govardhan, who brings rain by catching the clouds, filling all our ponds and wells and lakes. So many fruits and herbs grow from his gracious soil that are vital to our good health."

Krishna looked around at the people who were listening in silence. "Mount Govardhan does all this for us but have you ever heard him demand worship in return? Does he punish anyone for not worshipping him? Or are the cows vengeful or angry? Or Yamuna? Do the forests threaten us with violence if we don't repay them for their service? No. They are not selfish or petty. They are generous and pure hearted and they love us. That is why they take care of us."

The crowd was larger still, all of the villagers gazing at Krishna in wonderment that he was so passionate about this subject.

"Don't be afraid of Indra's anger," Krishna told them. "One who is worthy of worship never gets angry."

"But how do we worship the cows and Mount Govardhan?" Another lady asked. She was holding a pot of water on her head and had paused in her way across the courtyard to hear Krishna's speech.

"We already worship the cows, sister," Krishna said. "We return the love they give us by caring for them and ensuring they're always protected. The forests and Yamuna are worshipped by keeping them clean and clear of pollutants. Mount Govardhan can be worshipped through offering. If we give a little of our bounty back to him then that is a form of thanks. It will re-nourish the land that gives us so much."

Another saying of Krishna is that following your own Dharma (say, moral path or road) in a clumsy or erroneous way, is many times better than following someone else´s Dharma perfectly.

The will of God doesn´t need to fight anyone. The will of God is.

The way I see it, if my gods love me, they serve me. The same way Jesus served his disciples. When Jesus asked something of them, it was only because it was the best for them.

For what other reason would God ask you anything? God doesn´t need any favors.

A sufficiently powerful God doesn´t need anything from me. The reason s7he is a God is that s/he has trascended need. If I will to worship him/her to learn, then it is I who win, not the god. My gods don´t win anything by my devotion. If I had an aparition and Shiva told me I must renounce this world and go to pray in the amazonas, I will now that he is not telling me to do this for any other reason that because it is good for me. I doubt that there is something he wants me to pray for so that HE can have it.

I am inferior to the gods, that is why I am uncapable of serving them. The gods are superior to me, that is why they can serve me so completely.

If someone is serving God, but is not happy, then he either is serving something that is not god, or he hasn´t reach the goal the deity wants for him /her in which s/he will indeed feel happy.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I do not believe in rationalism. When you speak of my religion you speak nothing but ignorance. I trust in logic, yes, but my own five senses and emotions are first and foremost the ultimate arbiter of how I act and what I consider real. Perhaps this is my personality, perhaps it is more.

In your first sentence, you deny "rationalism" has any influence in your life. You spend the next sentence ranting about ignorance and then in the following sentence basically contradict the first sentence.

Pantheist and hard polytheist. Satan doesn't encourage anything in the sense that most would think, he merely encourages that which is the nature of the creature.

In other words, that's a "no" to my original question

 

[Me Myself]

So by all means, why your God has any order for you? What does he gain from it?

Weren´t his orders so that you feel happy with them? Weren´t his orders so to make you happy?

Because if they werent to make you happy, then it was to make himself happy. But if that was so, then he is not all bliss, because he needs something he doesn´t have (or may not have) for his happiness: your obedience.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I think what this all comes down to, in relation to the OP is;

My God is stronger and more demanding than your god(s); and therefore the only "real god".

I'd find it enlightening if there was a Westerner here that identifies as "polytheist" that would tell us about a god that places ANY DEMAND at all upon their lives apart from demanding that people "remain true" to themselves or something else along the lines of things that people naturally want to do. I'm not interested in hearing about gods that make suggestions or even implore. I want to hear about a god that actually gives orders. Specifically, orders that may from time to time OPPOSE their own will and must be followed in order to stay in the good graces of that god

 

[Me Myself]

I'd find it enlightening if there was a Westerner here that identifies as "polytheist" that would tell us about a god that places ANY DEMAND at all upon their lives apart from demanding that people "remain true" to themselves or something else along those line. I'm not interested in hearing about gods that make suggestions or even implore. I want to hear about a god that actually gives orders. Specifically, orders that may from time to time OPPOSE their own will and must be followed in order to stay in the good graces of that god

What does your god gain from this?

Why do you want such a petty god?

Is your god so low that people can supply his needs? that he needs us to do his will? THAT low? REALLY?

Is he too close to his kryptonite or something?

 

[jasonwill2]

King of The Jungle, I can't tell because of Poe's Law, but I am seriously doubting that are more than just a troll. You have redefined god, polythiesm, rationalism, and fail to address any critical points anyone else makes.

Your arbitrary definitions is only stopping you from understanding that which you condemn.

In your first sentence, you deny "rationalism" has any influence in your life. You spend the next sentence ranting about ignorance and then in the following sentence basically contradict the first sentence.





In other words, that's a "no" to my original question

1. I didn't contradict myself. Trusting in logic doesn't mean I believe in rationalism, I said that I trust in my own senses and emotions more than reason, that is the opposite of rationalism.

Maybe if you focused more on listening to what I said you would of gotten that, and I don't take kindly to your words when you fail to grasp the scope of your implications.

2. That was a yes, stop denying what is right in front of you. Satan doesn't condone rationalism, nor condemn it. He merely plays the role of god over life. And he has given me "orders", but not like your thinking, I wasn't threatened.

3. I want you to respond to my largest section of my post addressing your statements about my religion. I really don't care about the rest, the fact that you would so ignorantly liken my religion to superficial "spooky spiritual feelings" is beyond anything else you have ever said to me in terms of sheer ignorance. THIS IS REAL, not your neighborhood highschooler dabbling. I've been involved with Satanism directly for over a year and a half now, and have made oaths to Satan. I wouldn't say that it anything like you claimed, and it's not a stroll through a flower-filled field, it's SATAN-ism.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

1. I didn't contradict myself. Trusting in logic doesn't mean I believe in rationalism, I said that I trust in my own senses and emotions more than reason, that is the opposite of rationalism.

Whatever name you want to call it, it's exactly what I was talking about. It's the trust of the self, one's own sense of what's most practical, that what guides.

2. That was a yes, stop denying what is right in front of you. Satan doesn't condone rationalism, nor condemn it. He merely plays the role of god over life. And he has given me "orders", but not like your thinking, I wasn't threatened.

It's a "no" by virtue of the fact that Satan doesn't frown upon it. He lets people make up their own mind.

3. I want you to respond to my largest section of my post addressing your insults towards my religion. I really don't care about the rest, the fact that you would so ignorantly liken my religion to superficial "spooky spiritual feelings" is beyond anything else you have ever said to me. THIS IS REAL, not your neighborhood highschooler dabbling. I've been involved with Satanism directly for over a year and a half now, and have made oaths to Satan. I wouldn't say that it anything like you claimed, and it's not a stroll through a flower-filled field, it's SATAN-ism.

I don't remember insulting anything. Perhaps I mischaracterized parts of your religion. My impression is that your experiences represent the more extreme end of spiritual experiences in any religion if they are anything like you say they are. Sometimes things like chemical imbalances can also be factor in the type of experiences that we have that we perceive as spiritual.