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There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
My objection is not if Darth Vader exists or not. It is that P1 is false. Your example is a false comparison.



No if you propose an argument using a certain word with a certain meaning you can not change this meaning midway or after the fact. Nor you can you change the meaning of the word. This is a fallacy of equivocation and etymological fallacy.




Which has been updated by GR, SR and QT. Yes if you want to use a theory in a form which is out of date by a almost a century go ahead. It does nothing to prove your point.




Sophistry. If simultaneous causation were coherent then one can speculate God is a product of the BB as well. Both could be uncaused, in the case of the pre-BB singularity principle.






The classical argument states "Everything. Craig has used "Whatever begins", "Anything", "Everything". He plays language games as his audience are laymen Christians. Craig is inconsistant, that is all your have demonstrated to me.





Why do I care what Joseph Smith thinks? He is neither a philosophy nor physicist. Argument from authority.

I get the fact that you neither understand systems of logic nor physics. Also you have a touch of cognitive dissonance as you refuted your own argument a few pages ago.

Did you know that you were answering my post to Cottage?

It is a bit rich you telling me, a non-scientist, that I do not understand systems of logic nor physics, as I do not claim such attributes, when your insistence that P1 is false, even after you have been clearly shown that it is true, makes you look like a novice at this game. It is also very telling how you diss WLC and Joseph Smith person instead of their words so very quickly and with such malice. You are wrong my friend. God is a reality, whether you like it or not. You are going to kick yourself, but I never will. If I am wrong then I will be dead, however, if you are wrong you will be as sick as a pig.

Cognitive disorder, or, the process of acquiring new knowledge and openly changing my opinion to suit. You are quite a little judgemental person, aren't you, or is it bias. Like, You are right so everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Did you know that you were answering my post to Cottage?

It is a bit rich you telling me, a non-scientist, that I do not understand systems of logic nor physics, as I do not claim such attributes, when your insistence that P1 is false, even after you have been clearly shown that it is true, makes you look like a novice at this game. It is also very telling how you diss WLC and Joseph Smith person instead of their words so very quickly and with such malice. You are wrong my friend. God is a reality, whether you like it or not. You are going to kick yourself, but I never will. If I am wrong then I will be dead, however, if you are wrong you will be as sick as a pig.

Cognitive disorder, or, the process of acquiring new knowledge and openly changing my opinion to suit. You are quite a little judgemental person, aren't you, or is it bias. Like, You are right so everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

P1 is false, that has been demonstrated to you so many times - move on.

WLC himself admits it is nothing more than an intuition.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You cannot prove that and if you link me to a pseudoscientific blog I will return the compliment with the same contradicting yours. You prove it in your words.

False as virtual particles begin to exist and cease uncaused. It is a physic lecture at a university not a blog, unlike your own sources which are what? The blog of Craig. You are a funny man.

You cannot prove that and if you link me to a pseudoscientific blog I will return the compliment with the same contradicting yours. You prove it in your words.
I linked a reference from a university while you on the other hand have linked the blog of William Craig.


I do not have to, the standard cosmological models does that very well. It shows us that there was a big bang and it shows us that the big bang came from the singularity. By the definition of the word create we can see that it was a creation from one state into another.
Standard cosmology actually states uncaused event as per my link pages ago. Thus you are out of date.


How is that then?
To compare an object which is not natural, a ship, with an object which is natural. Ships do not occur in nature. Thus your example is a fallacy.



Well, I will give it a go, you might be surprised. How do you work that out then. Chaos matter was the result of the big bang, or plasma during the early stages. God existed before the big bang so how could he be a product of it?
If chaos matter existed before the BB, or whatever you want to call it. It could be greater than God or produced God. Chaos material could be uncaused as well. So now you have two uncaused concepts, God and chaos matter. More so you are using an unfounded assumption, chaos material, to prove another unproven assumption, God.



What? :shrug:

You are right, I could not answer the second part as I see no coherent question.
It's an error in your logic as it was not a question, it were statements in which your concept can be questioned.. You proposed a concept of chaos matter. Matter does not exist without space, thus chaos-space. The questions inherit to our universe would apply to chaos-matter and space would apply as well. However by presupposition chaos matter to answer your own question you are begging the question which is the basis of KCA to prove the KCA.



Well, that is not true, you need to check his creditors, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the words he has spoken and if those words are true. They are true so you rejection is based on an inability to answer my argument so you are evading the question.
I do not care about his creditors, argument ad populum. Who are his creditors? Are they philosophers or physics? Prove his creditors are even worth looking up. Also the statement has several fallacies which I covered earlier such as the watchmaker fallacy and the issues with chaos matter.



You like using these fallacies when you want to evade the issue, don't you? The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument. Please show me where this has happened in my post. [/quote

]Nope when there are fallacies within arguments this shows an error in logic and thinking process of the presenter. It also shows what errors the presenter is making by naming the fallacy and point it out in the relevant part of text. This shows that the conclusions and arguments of the presenter are illogical. I no more need to address illogical arguments then I would need to answer the question of "why do fairies steal Bob's keys?". I have pointed out nonsense, I am not obligated to respond to nonsense.




So, do you believe that objects can come into existence ex-nihilo. That is, like a chair coming into existence from nowhere, just popping into existence. If you can prove that then I will, retract my statement, I don't think you can do that so it is not a leap of faith to believe the universe was created ex-materia.
It is completely proven by virtual particles in QF and QT. Also by using a chair as an example is just repating the previous fallacy. Also my link have already proven my argument so you are free to retract your statements when you find the time to do so.


That God might have been the instigator of the event is speculation.
It is good that you have acknowledge it is speculation, which is just what I have been saying the whole time.



Oh my, you are wriggling on this one. KCA does not say that it wasn't matter or energy either. Despite the glaring evidence that clearly states that KCAs first premise can be nothing else but right you still try and argue the point. I am not going to keep repeating my self if you are to stubborn to see the truth.
Speculation, the KCA does not say matter, energy, anything. Just an undefined cause.





It does not matter if it was caused or uncaused there was a change in state between the singularity and the big bang.
Again refuting your own argument. If it was uncaused P1 is false. The KCA fails, move on.

Anything that begins to exist has a cause. The universe qualifies as anything, it has began to exist, therefore it has a cause. The universe was caused to exist. There was the singularity and in its place you will find the universe. The elements that came from that big bang was, at one time, in the singularity, so, it has existed for ever. We know that because it cannot be destroyed, therefore, if it has no end so there can be know beginning.
The universe qualifies as the reality in which everything we know exists. However due to the fact that some objects within it follow causality does not mean the universe itself is subject to this law. Also there are object with do not follow this law. The law of cause and effect are for objects within the universe but is not applicable to the universe itself. It is about the organization of matter and energy and in which is observed. Thus the KCA is another fallacy of equivocation.

When you say "For this reason alone" you suggests that you are seeing your errors. You have linked me to someone's personal blog, not a reputable science Web site. .
Illogical arguments can be dismissed for being illogical. As evident by your abuse of fallacies. My link was to a university lecture for physics not a blog. Either you are lying or mistake my link for one posted by another member. Did you actually look at it?

Dishonestly knows no bounds
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
You cannot prove that and if you link me to a pseudoscientific blog I will return the compliment with the same contradicting yours. You prove it in your words.
I linked a reference from a university while you on the other hand have linked the blog of William Craig.


I do not have to, the standard cosmological models does that very well. It shows us that there was a big bang and it shows us that the big bang came from the singularity. By the definition of the word create we can see that it was a creation from one state into another.
Standard cosmology actually states uncaused event as per my link pages ago. Thus you are out of date.


How is that then?
To compare an object which is not natural, a ship, with an object which is natural. Ships do not occur in nature. Thus your example is a fallacy.



Well, I will give it a go, you might be surprised. How do you work that out then. Chaos matter was the result of the big bang, or plasma during the early stages. God existed before the big bang so how could he be a product of it?
If chaos matter existed before the BB, or whatever you want to call it. It could be greater than God or produced God. Chaos material could be uncaused as well. So now you have two uncaused concepts, God and chaos matter. More so you are using an unfounded assumption, chaos material, to prove another unproven assumption, God.



What? :shrug:

You are right, I could not answer the second part as I see no coherent question.
It's an error in your logic as it was not a question, it were statements in which your concept can be questioned.. You proposed a concept of chaos matter. Matter does not exist without space, thus chaos-space. The questions inherit to our universe would apply to chaos-matter and space would apply as well. However by presupposition chaos matter to answer your own question you are begging the question which is the basis of KCA to prove the KCA.



Well, that is not true, you need to check his creditors, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the words he has spoken and if those words are true. They are true so you rejection is based on an inability to answer my argument so you are evading the question.
I do not care about his creditors, argument ad populum. Who are his creditors? Are they philosophers or physics? Prove his creditors are even worth looking up. Also the statement has several fallacies which I covered earlier such as the watchmaker fallacy and the issues with chaos matter.



You like using these fallacies when you want to evade the issue, don't you? The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument. Please show me where this has happened in my post.
Nope when there are fallacies within arguments this shows an error in logic and thinking process of the presenter. It also shows what errors the presenter is making by naming the fallacy and point it out in the relevant part of text. This shows that the conlusions and arguments of the presenter are illogical. I no more need to address illogical arguments then I would need to answer the question of "why do fairies steal Bob's keys?". I have pointed out nonsense, I am not obligated to respond to nonsense.




So, do you believe that objects can come into existence ex-nihilo. That is, like a chair coming into existence from nowhere, just popping into existence. If you can prove that then I will, retract my statement, I don't think you can do that so it is not a leap of faith to believe the universe was created ex-materia.

It is completely proven by virtual particles in QF and QT. Also by using a chair as an example is just repating the previous fallacy. Also my link have already proven my argument so you are free to retract your statements when you find the time to do so.


That God might have been the instigator of the event is speculation.
It is good that you have acknowledge it is speculation, which is just what I have been saying the whole time.



Oh my, you are wriggling on this one. KCA does not say that it wasn't matter or energy either.
Despite the glaring evidence that clearly states that KCAs first premise can be nothing else but right you still try and argue the point. I am not going to keep repeating my self if you are to stubborn to see the truth. [/quote]

Speculation, the KCA does not say matter, energy, anything. Just an undefined cause.





It does not matter if it was caused or uncaused there was a change in state between the singularity and the big bang.
Again refuting your own argument. If it was uncaused P1 is false. The KCA fails, move on.


Anything that begins to exist has a cause. The universe qualifies as anything, it has began to exist, therefore it has a cause. The universe was caused to exist. There was the singularity and in its place you will find the universe. The elements that came from that big bang was, at one time, in the singularity, so, it has existed for ever. We know that because it cannot be destroyed, therefore, if it has no end so there can be know beginning.
The universe qualifies as the reality in which everything we know exists. However due to the fact that some objects within it follow causality does not mean the universe itself is subject to this law. Also there are object with do not follow this law. The law of cause and effect are for objects within the universe but is not applicable to the universe itself. It is about the organization of matter and energy and in which is observed. Thus the KCA is another fallacy of equivocation.

When you say "For this reason alone" you suggests that you are seeing your errors. You have linked me to someone's personal blog, not a reputable science Web site. .
Illogical arguments can be dismissed for being illogical. As evident by your abuse of fallacies. My link was to a university lecture for physics not a blog. Either you are lying or mistake my link for one posted by another member. Did you actually look at it?

Dishonestly knows no bounds
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Did you know that you were answering my post to Cottage?

So what? I am pointing out your error. You are publicizing your arguments in a forum which allows debate. If you do not wish to have others read it and scrutinize your arguments take it to PMs or DIR.

It is a bit rich you telling me, a non-scientist, that I do not understand systems of logic nor physics, as I do not claim such attributes, when your insistence that P1 is false, even after you have been clearly shown that it is true, makes you look like a novice at this game. It is also very telling how you diss WLC and Joseph Smith person instead of their words so very quickly and with such malice. You are wrong my friend. God is a reality, whether you like it or not. You are going to kick yourself, but I never will. If I am wrong then I will be dead, however, if you are wrong you will be as sick as a pig.

I am a historian whom uses various scientific methods in coordination to create hypothesis and theories. Methods which use abductive, deductive and inductive logic. Philosophy and logic are connected with science and are required by the scientific methodology. I feel I am qualified enough by my education and experience to contribute and point out others mistakes. Since you have admitted you do not understand logic do not complain when someone else use it's methods to prove their own arguments and to criticize your own arguments. If you feel your lack of understanding of logic is a disadvantage it is up to you to expand your knowledge and learn how to use and apply logic. I am not obligated to take on a disadvantage for the sake of your own disadvantage.


I dismissed Smith for his use of fallacies. I pointed out he is neither qualified nor considered an authority of any relevant field to this topic. So by quoting him you are presenting an argument in support of your position. An argument back by someone with no authority or even relevancy. It would be like me quoting a mechanic regarding theories of gravity. Opinions and quotes from non-expert are worthless. I dismiss Craig for supporting simultaneous causation to support KCA when it renders KCA moot by doing so. Hence his argument is sophistry, it sounds good at first glance, is nonsense once you understand it in context.

Cognitive disorder, or, the process of acquiring new knowledge and openly changing my opinion to suit. You are quite a little judgemental person, aren't you, or is it bias. Like, You are right so everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
I call them as I see them. It is your ideology not to judge, not mine. Everyone has a bias. I believe yours has blinded you to fallacies, self-refuting statements, refutation of your own argument cumulated in a mad panic of damage control after realization of your errors.
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I linked a reference from a university while you on the other hand have linked the blog of William Craig.

You linked to a presumed expert blog regarding the existence of quantum sub-automic particles. I linked to WLC regarding KCA, in which he is a expert. Where is the difference.

Standard cosmology actually states uncaused event as per my link pages ago. Thus you are out of date.

Whatever begins to exist has a cause seems obviously true— at the least, more so than its denial. Yet a number of atheists, in order to avoid the argument’s conclusion, have denied the first premise. Sometimes it is said that sub-atomic physics furnishes an exception to premise (1), since on the sub-atomic level events are said to be uncaused. In the same way, certain theories of cosmic origins are interpreted as showing that the whole universe could have sprung into being out of the sub-atomic vacuum. Thus the universe is said to be the proverbial “free lunch.”

This objection, however, is based on misunderstandings. In the first place, not all scientists agree that sub-atomic events are uncaused. Many physicists today are quite dissatisfied with this view (the so-called Copenhagen Interpretation) of sub-atomic physics and are exploring deterministic theories like those of David Bohm. 7 Thus, sub-atomic physics is not a proven exception to premise (1).

Second, even on the traditional, indeterministic interpretation, particles do not come into being out of nothing. They arise as spontaneous fluctuations of the energy contained in the sub-atomic vacuum; they do not come from nothing. 8 Third, the same point can be made about theories of the origin of the universe out of a primordial vacuum. 9 Popular magazine articles touting such theories as getting “something from nothing” simply do not understand that the vacuum is not nothing, but is a sea of fluctuating energy endowed with a rich structure and subject to physical laws. Philosopher of science Robert Deltete accurately sums up the situation: “There is no basis in ordinary quantum theory for the claim that the universe itself is uncaused, much less for the claim that it sprang into being uncaused from literally nothing.”

WLC

Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship.

To compare an object which is not natural, a ship, with an object which is natural. Ships do not occur in nature. Thus your example is a fallacy.

How did you take the definition of the word "create" to be a watchmakers fallacy, or a false analogy. I believe the analogy is fine and that you are being pernickety to distract from your evasions. You need to check your list of fallacies and what the actually refer to.

If chaos matter existed before the BB, or whatever you want to call it. It could be greater than God or produced God. Chaos material could be uncaused as well. So now you have two uncaused concepts, God and chaos matter. More so you are using an unfounded assumption, chaos material, to prove another unproven assumption, God.

I did not say that, and the quote taken from Joseph Smith did not say that either. Chaos material came after the big bang. That makes the rest of that paragraph nonsensical warranting no further rebuttal.

It's an error in your logic as it was not a question, it were statements in which your concept can be questioned.. You proposed a concept of chaos matter. Matter does not exist without space, thus chaos-space. The questions inherit to our universe would apply to chaos-matter and space would apply as well. However by presupposition chaos matter to answer your own question you are begging the question which is the basis of KCA to prove the KCA.

I fear to tell you that the error lies in your comprehension. You arrogantly said:

This raises a few question which you can not answer. If there was "chaos matter" then God could be the product of this matter, not the creator of it.

To which I sarcastically replied, followed by a precise answer.

Well, I will give it a go, you might be surprised. How do you work that out then. Chaos matter was the result of the big bang, or plasma during the early stages. God existed before the big bang so how could he be a product of it?

I do not care about his creditors, argument ad populum. Who are his creditors? Are they philosophers or physics? Prove his creditors are even worth looking up. Also the statement has several fallacies which I covered earlier such as the watchmaker fallacy and the issues with chaos matter.

You and your fallacies that stifle debate, ah. And your "argumentums" that do the same. Just ploys to accomplish your evasions in responding to the points being made.

Nope when there are fallacies within arguments this shows an error in logic and thinking process of the presenter. It also shows what errors the presenter is making by naming the fallacy and point it out in the relevant part of text. This shows that the conlusions and arguments of the presenter are illogical. I no more need to address illogical arguments then I would need to answer the question of "why do fairies steal Bob's keys?". I have pointed out nonsense, I am not obligated to respond to nonsense.

Then why are you.

It is completely proven by virtual particles in QF and QT. Also by using a chair as an example is just repating the previous fallacy. Also my link have already proven my argument so you are free to retract your statements when you find the time to do so.

No, it is not virtually proven. Have I made a fallacy. I hope not.

It is good that you have acknowledge it is speculation, which is just what I have been saying the whole time.

Me too, only you have not understood what I said, maybe another fallacy.

Despite the glaring evidence that clearly states that KCAs first premise can be nothing else but right you still try and argue the point. I am not going to keep repeating my self if you are to stubborn to see the truth.

Speculation, the KCA does not say matter, energy, anything. Just an undefined cause.

That it is a undefined cause gives rise to suggestion as to what that cause maybe. In my expert opinion on theology, especially Christianity, I have deduced that, in my opinion, the cause was indeed God.

Again refuting your own argument. If it was uncaused P1 is false. The KCA fails, move on.

If it was uncaused it would be a different argument in which God could still be responsible for the universe coming into existence. That was the point I was making and you failed to pick up on.

The universe qualifies as the reality in which everything we know exists. However due to the fact that some objects within it follow causality does not mean the universe itself is subject to this law. Also there are object with do not follow this law. The law of cause and effect are for objects within the universe but is not applicable to the universe itself. It is about the organization of matter and energy and in which is observed. Thus the KCA is another fallacy of equivocation.

This is irrelevant to KCA. It is facts after the event and therefore a fallacious argument.

How can this be true. "The law of cause and effect are for objects within the universe but is not applicable to the universe itself."

Illogical arguments can be dismissed for being illogical. As evident by your abuse of fallacies. My link was to a university lecture for physics not a blog. Either you are lying or mistake my link for one posted by another member. Did you actually look at it?

On the contrary, if anyone is abusing fallacies it is you for over using them to stifle debate. I am not a scientist, I am not familiar with fallacies, indeed, they seem stupid and unnecessary to me. Yes, I looked at it and found that it was authored by one individual who could have used his own beliefs in the lecture rather then the truth.

Dishonestly knows no bounds

Is that remark for you or me? Or is it a name-calling fallacy?
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
You linked to a presumed expert blog regarding the existence of quantum sub-automic particles. I linked to WLC regarding KCA, in which he is a expert. Where is the difference.

No it was part of a lesson plan which you can read part of or in whole as part of physics taught at the university. Your comparison is flawed as I was linking a lecture on physics not one on KCA. It's purpose was to show KCA is unsound according physics which it attempts to use as proof. Thus proving P1 is false.


Whatever begins to exist has a cause seems obviously true— at the least, more so than its denial.
QT and QM counter intuitive so the obvious true is rendering false within this context. Many ideas are counter intuitive until new evidence/date is provided. The geocentric model was intuitive based then then current observations yet proven incorrect with additional data. Now heliocentric model is intuitive to most people. We often take for granted ideas which are accepted by tradition or social environment. However just because an idea seems oblivious does not mean it is true in reality. This is why evidence trumps intuition as demonstrated by QM and QF.

Yet a number of atheists, in order to avoid the argument’s conclusion, have denied the first premise. Sometimes it is said that sub-atomic physics furnishes an exception to premise (1), since on the sub-atomic level events are said to be uncaused. In the same way, certain theories of cosmic origins are interpreted as showing that the whole universe could have sprung into being out of the sub-atomic vacuum. Thus the universe is said to be the proverbial “free lunch.”
Not avoiding the argument, I am refuting the argument as a sound one. Now there could very well be a cause. However the KCA does not prove this within its formal argument. Also as physic states, current model, the universe is uncaused, the BB is just the horizonevent which caused the expansion of the universe. Yes it could be a free lunch.

Also are we reduced to copy/pasting whole paragraphs? At least quote when doing so. This way I know if I am have a dialogue with you or arguing against Craig. Plagiarism and all.. Also since there are references, I see the (1), being able to check the references would be helpful.

This objection, however, is based on misunderstandings. In the first place, not all scientists agree that sub-atomic events are uncaused. Many physicists today are quite dissatisfied with this view (the so-called Copenhagen Interpretation) of sub-atomic physics and are exploring deterministic theories like those of David Bohm. 7 Thus, sub-atomic physics is not a proven exception to premise (1).
Okay so there is a disagreement. When this disagreement is solved and one theory is taught in physics I will revise my view. However the view I am using as evidence is in fact taught. Bohm's theory is the minority position, among many.

Second, even on the traditional, indeterministic interpretation, particles do not come into being out of nothing. They arise as spontaneous fluctuations of the energy contained in the sub-atomic vacuum; they do not come from nothing. 8 Third, the same point can be made about theories of the origin of the universe out of a primordial vacuum. 9 Popular magazine articles touting such theories as getting “something from nothing” simply do not understand that the vacuum is not nothing, but is a sea of fluctuating energy endowed with a rich structure and subject to physical laws. Philosopher of science Robert Deltete accurately sums up the situation: “There is no basis in ordinary quantum theory for the claim that the universe itself is uncaused, much less for the claim that it sprang into being uncaused from literally nothing.”
KCA says nothing about nothing nor do current cosmological theories. "Nothing" is a strawman used by Craig. Physics concept of nothing, as per my link pages ago, is the quantum vacuum not the absence of something. Eqivocation fallacy, again.

How did you take the definition of the word "create" to be a watchmakers fallacy, or a false analogy. I believe the analogy is fine and that you are being pernickety to distract from your evasions. You need to check your list of fallacies and what the actually refer to.
By the examples used like ship hich is not natural by made by a person. A created object implies a creator. This is how the argument wants you to think. However what this view omits is we know ships does not reproduce and are not found in nature. We know it is a constructed object, we can find the shipmaker. Likewise for a watch, hence watchmaker fallacy put forward by William Paley. Also it is an error to use the word create as we are merely reordering matter not creating anything. Creating of matter and energy has never been observed so it is the wrong word to use in this example. It is an old argument and refuted by Hume before it was even coined. It is a fault analogy, the coin name of this version is watchmaker.



I did not say that, and the quote taken from Joseph Smith did not say that either. Chaos material came after the big bang. That makes the rest of that paragraph nonsensical warranting no further rebuttal.
Since there is no chaos but rather material of our current universe the entire quote is pointless sophistry using outdated and ignorant views from a non-expert.



I fear to tell you that the error lies in your comprehension. You arrogantly said:



To which I sarcastically replied, followed by a precise answer.
In which you strawmaned the argument as chaos in my response was a material used to create the universe pre-BB not post-BB.

Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

So, we could write that "Anything that is created has a cause", which is exactly the same as saying "Anything that begins to exist has a cause. To further confirm "Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it. Kalam was never saying that the universe came into existence from nothing as from nothing comes nothing. Kalam was saying that the universe came into existence ex-materia. You learn something new everyday, don't you? That should effectively remedy your claims that premises P1 is very much proved and that we can then move straight onto P2 and the conclusion
Since P1 is false KCA fails as a sound argument. The argument fails to prove it's conclusion Now that does not mean there was no cause, just that the argument is unsound. Also it says nothing about what the cause is. The cause could be rooted in QM interaction, which is what is taught. Occam's razor states unnecessary hypothesis, God, are not required. We have an answer which is acceptable and requires not further assumptions.


You and your fallacies that stifle debate, ah. And your "argumentums" that do the same. Just ploys to accomplish your evasions in responding to the points being made.
Yes I agree my pointing out of fallacies does stifle a debate. When one points out errors in an argument which are based on fallacies it stops the argument dead. This happens in philosophy and is used to scrutinize ideas and arguments. It is how we deduce if an argument is valid and sound.



Then why are you.
I am not arguing the fallacy ridden arguments but rather pointing out the fallacies within the arguments, explaining each and the implications.



No, it is not virtually proven. Have I made a fallacy. I hope not.
Read
Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles

And a known effect caused by said particle

The Casimir Effect



Me too, only you have not understood what I said, maybe another fallacy.
No I was stating the cause is speculation. However this is not an acceptance of KCA as sound.


That it is a undefined cause gives rise to suggestion as to what that cause maybe. In my expert opinion on theology, especially Christianity, I have deduced that, in my opinion, the cause was indeed God.
This is special pleading. You ask the question about the cause of the cause then defacto move your concept to become immutable to the question.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
If it was uncaused it would be a different argument in which God could still be responsible for the universe coming into existence. That was the point I was making and you failed to pick up on.
No uncaused means without cause. Thus God can not be the cause of it. You are assuming the answer before the question. You are assuming QM is caused itself without proof. Thus using an assertion to argument in support of another assertion. Argument from assertion also it violates Occum's razor. If we have an uncaused event God is not required.


This is irrelevant to KCA. It is facts after the event and therefore a fallacious argument.
Negative as causality applies to objects within the universe. It is unknown if these laws must apply to the universe as a whole; space-time, QM, etc. This is due to a failure to use inductive reasoning and confusing it with deductive reasoning.

How can this be true. "The law of cause and effect are for objects within the universe but is not applicable to the universe itself."
We have examples of in-universe objects which do not follow causality. So to infer law and effect is a universal truth is in fact false. "What is true for the part is not true for the whole." In this context it means what is true for parts of an object is not true for the whole object. Fallacy of composition.

Trees are living organisms
Chairs are made from trees
Chairs are living organisms.

In this context Kalam is mistaken to take objects within the universe which begin have causes, which is false. It applies this false principle to the universe as a whole due to similarities of a false premise. Now objects are a set but the universe is not a set of itself nor can it. So this is also a false comparison.

Illogical arguments can be dismissed for being illogical. As evident by your abuse of fallacies. My link was to a university lecture for physics not a blog. Either you are lying or mistake my link for one posted by another member. Did you actually look at it?
This is false as demonstrated above. Again this is a failure on your part not my own.

On the contrary, if anyone is abusing fallacies it is you for over using them to stifle debate. I am not a scientist, I am not familiar with fallacies, indeed, they seem stupid and unnecessary to me. Yes, I looked at it and found that it was authored by one individual who could have used his own beliefs in the lecture rather then the truth.
You have abused the fallacies in your arguments. I am just point this out this abuse. If you arguments were not fallacious I would not have to comment about fallacies.

:facepalm: Cause and effect bud. You are the cause, I am observing the effect along with commentary.



Is that remark for you or me?[/quote]

You since you think a university physics lecture is a blog. It was an assertion based on previous interactions

Either you never looked at it, skimmed a glance or are lying.


Off-topic. I am going to have to reduce my quotations from your comments to a shorter form. I hit the char limit.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Serenity

You linked to a presumed expert blog regarding the existence of quantum sub-automic particles. I linked to WLC regarding KCA, in which he is a expert. Where is the difference?
]

Well the difference is extreme.

Shad is linking to scientific sources that SUPPORT his claims.
You sadly are linking to a non scientific source that specifically REJECTS your claims.

How that makes sense to you as a tactic, I can not imagine.

WL Craig says that P1 is just an intuition, not an axiom or a scientific truth. You are using sources to support your position that do not support your position, that is a very significant difference to Shad's tactic of posting sources that do in fact support his claims.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Evolutionists use too big a brush to paint their theories, they need to use a fine-point brush to zero in on the microscopic nitty-gritty and take it from there.
For example here's that pic again of one of the millions of rods that coat the retina, it's basically a tube full of a stack of light-sensitive cells like a tube of Pringles-

rod-structure_zpscc8301e6.gif~original


prings1_zps88b508b3.jpg~original


But evolutionsts can't even begin to explain in fine detail how a rod evolved.
First the tube would have had to evolve, then each pringle would have had to evolve, then they'd have to wire themseves into the optic nerve etc.
In other words, although most Creationists happily accept that evolution does occur, they DON'T accept that it happened by blind chance, and that it needed a Guiding Hand behind it..:)
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Evolutionists use too big a brush to paint their theories, they need to use a fine-point brush to zero in on the microscopic nitty-gritty and take it from there.
For example here's that pic again of one of the millions of rods that coat the retina, it's basically a tube full of a stack of light-sensitive cells like a tube of Pringles-

rod-structure_zpscc8301e6.gif~original


prings1_zps88b508b3.jpg~original


But evolutionsts can't even begin to explain in fine detail how a rod evolved.
First the tube would have had to evolve, then each pringle would have had to evolve, then they'd have to wire themseves into the optic nerve etc.
In other words, although most Creationists happily accept that evolution does occur, they DON'T accept that it happened by blind chance, and that it needed a Guiding Hand behind it..:)

Evolution is not blind chance, so that doesn't work.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Evolution is not blind chance, so that doesn't work.

So which came first, the tube or the pringles in it?
Obviously the tube must have come first, but how did the tube KNOW it was needed so that pringles could stack in it later, did it have a crystal ball or what?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
So which came first, the tube or the pringles in it?
Obviously the tube must have come first, but how did the tube KNOW it was needed so that pringles could stack in it later, did it have a crystal ball or what?

Evolution happens to species, not individuals.

Try this simple experiment: Take a bag of bottletops and shake it - the tops will self organise over time to form long chains of nested tops. No crystal ball required.

The evolution of the eye has been well covered anyway from the first light sensitive cell up.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..The evolution of the eye has been well covered anyway from the first light sensitive cell up.

Er not quite..
Dawkins says- "It is not difficult then for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously.
Any old lump of halfway transparent jelly need only assume a curved shape" ('Climbing Mount Improbable', page146)


You see, that's what I meant by evolutionsts using a broad brush to try to gloss over the fine details. What does he mean exactly when he says a lump of jelly came into existence "spontaneously"?
Doesn't spontaneously in this context mean "out of nowhere"?
Haha he'll have to do better than that..:)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Evolutionists use too big a brush to paint their theories, they need to use a fine-point brush to zero in on the microscopic nitty-gritty and take it from there.
For example here's that pic again of one of the millions of rods that coat the retina, it's basically a tube full of a stack of light-sensitive cells like a tube of Pringles-

rod-structure_zpscc8301e6.gif~original


prings1_zps88b508b3.jpg~original


But evolutionsts can't even begin to explain in fine detail how a rod evolved.
First the tube would have had to evolve, then each pringle would have had to evolve, then they'd have to wire themseves into the optic nerve etc.
In other words, although most Creationists happily accept that evolution does occur, they DON'T accept that it happened by blind chance, and that it needed a Guiding Hand behind it..:)

Well, I am not a biologist but I can think of a simple way to have that tube and the pringles in it without designing one before the others.

All you need is a simple algorithm that loops on a variable N controlled by a certain gene. Each iteration does the following (also controlled by interacting genes)

- Slightly increase size of the tube
- Put a pringle on top

Now a mutation turns N into N+1. And if the additional pringle provides advantages for its carrier, it will pass it to the next generation until all will have a slightly bigger tube and an additional pringle.

So, you can start with N=1 and climb your way up to a bigger tube without discontinuities. So, at least for what concerns the stacking of pringles you don't need to design the tube and the pringles separately.

By the way, I suspect that similar mechanisms apply to many repetitive things in our bodies like our spinal chord. We actually still have a vestigial counting gene which can generate a tail in humans. In most cases, it is suppressed but sometimes isn't and you have a baby human born with a tail. It is not clear why the guiding hand of God did not remove that gene altogether.

Ciao

- viole
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Er not quite..
Dawkins says- "It is not difficult then for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously.
Any old lump of halfway transparent jelly need only assume a curved shape" ('Climbing Mount Improbable', page146)


You see, that's what I meant by evolutionsts using a broad brush to try to gloss over the fine details. What does he mean exactly when he says a lump of jelly came into existence "spontaneously"?
Doesn't spontaneously in this context mean "out of nowhere"?
Haha he'll have to do better than that..:)

But he is correct - a spoonfull of jelly on the floor does form a lens. What is the problem?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Evolutionists use too big a brush to paint their theories, they need to use a fine-point brush to zero in on the microscopic nitty-gritty and take it from there.
For example here's that pic again of one of the millions of rods that coat the retina, it's basically a tube full of a stack of light-sensitive cells like a tube of Pringles-
Again, did you read my post? I provided a link to a video that explained that. I assume you missed it.

Never mind. Here is the video again:

David Attenborough: The evolution of the eye. [VIDEO]

But evolutionsts can't even begin to explain in fine detail how a rod evolved.
This is patently false.

Evolution of Retinal Structures

First the tube would have had to evolve, then each pringle would have had to evolve, then they'd have to wire themseves into the optic nerve etc.
Evolution doesn't work like that. Things don't just "appear" half or fully-formed. They appear in small iterations, each successive iteration conveying some advantage to the organism.

In other words, although most Creationists happily accept that evolution does occur, they DON'T accept that it happened by blind chance, and that it needed a Guiding Hand behind it..
Because they, like you, don't understand evolution. Just like you didn't understand the scientific definition of the word "theory".

Er not quite..
Dawkins says- "It is not difficult then for rudimentary lens-like objects to come into existence spontaneously.
Any old lump of halfway transparent jelly need only assume a curved shape" ('Climbing Mount Improbable', page146)


You see, that's what I meant by evolutionsts using a broad brush to try to gloss over the fine details. What does he mean exactly when he says a lump of jelly came into existence "spontaneously"?
Doesn't spontaneously in this context mean "out of nowhere"?
Haha he'll have to do better than that..
Okay, I am now starting to believe that you're a troll, because anyone whose done any amount of research on this subject would already have the answers by now, and someone who quotes only two lines of a Dawkins book and believes this somehow makes a profound, argument-winning point is clearly not making any actual effort.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, no, P1 Anything that begins to exist has a cause is correct.

I usually prefer to attack the second premise on account of the obvious absurdity of a spacetime block to be born or to be subject to any dynamics whatsoever.

But the fun with Kalam is that it can be attacked from many independent sides. So, let's have a look to premise 1.

Independently from its truth claim, it is clearly incomplete or makes some assumptions that are taken as obvious, although they might not be so obvious. This is how it should be formulated:

1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause AND it needs a time arrow.

The existence of a time arrow is necessary to make sense of "begin". Without it, I cannot say if something begins or cease to exist. In a sense, without it, nothing begins to exist.

Now, what do we know about the origins of the apparent existence of a time direction, coming from the past and going to the future? We cannot find the answers in fundamental physics because the equations are all time symmetric.

By watching a movie of particles interactions, I have no way to say in which direction the movies has been recorded. But if I watch a movie of an egg exploding I can always say in which direction the movies should be played, for many flying pieces of an egg do not assemble spontaneously to form an egg, usually.

So, the time arrow, seems to deal with the macroscopic (eggs) and not with the individual particles that constitute the egg. Ergo, the time arrow origin needs to be searched in thermodynamics and statistics and we observe one for the simple reason that our Universe is not in statistical equilibrium.

If that is true, and it seems to be true, the arrow is physical and applies only to macroscopic isolated systems which are not in thermodynamic equilibrium, like our Universe. In other words: "beginnings" makes sense only in isolated systems which are not in statistical equilibrium.

This leads to the collapse of Premise 2. For if the Universe began to exist than it must be contained in an encompassing meta Universe which is also not in thermal equilibrium for physical reasons. But this is absurd, if we define Universe as the set of all physical things that exist.

By the way, this argument can be used to defuse the fine-tuning argument as well. For only in systems moving spontaneously from "order" to "chaos" you need to apply special precautions or design to fine tune anything.

Ciao

- viole
 
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cottage

Well-Known Member
:(
St Austell was a benedictine monk who lived nearly a thousand years ago during the apostasy when the authority of God and the Holy priesthood, after the order of the son of God, had been taken from the earth at the death of the last living Apostle.

<scratches head> I’m pointing out to you that St Anselm, a former Archbishop of Canterbury, and the author of what became known as the Ontological Argument, described God as “a being than which no greater can be thought”. And that is traditionally how God is understood. But I’ve shown that we can conceive of a greater possible being, one that does not have anthropomorphic qualities and craves adoration from his creation. And since the conception is clearly possible for the imagination it can never imply a contradiction.



Ah, the good old accusation of fantasy. Fantasy, the faculty or activity of imagining impossible or improbable things. I suppose that to a non-believer my belief would seem like fantasy. To a realist and pragmatist it would be uncanny how perfectly all the bits fall into place as a perfect plan. To a Christian, it is what it is, the plan of Salvation. But Christians define a Supreme Being as God, and all of its ramifications, you define him as something completely different, as cold as a computer program.

I’m not defining something that exists in reality but demonstrating the logical impossibility what you describe.

Quantum sub-automic particles behave differently when being observed as opposed to not being observed. Is that non-conscious or intelligent? Quantum sub-automic particles were known about nearly 200 year ago, way before science stumbled on them. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge power and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence You really do need to spend just a little time considering your retort before you start to type. Consciousness has many different levels

So if you’re going to invoke physics in that statement to support what you’ve asserted then you are going to have to prove, scientifically, that consciousness pre-exists the birth of the individual human person. Second, you failed to address the second part of that passage. I said: “And to propose that I was made to forget my previous existence simply compounds the problem for such a ploy means I was brought into being to serve the needs of a selfish entity.”
Third, if we have always existed and God was always in a relationship with us, as you said in an earlier post, then why did he want us to return to him?
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
You are arguing from ignorance. You lack religious knowledge so you say that my beliefs are spurious because you do not understand them or even know they exist.

Rubbish! One doesn’t need an in-depth knowledge of a particular religion in order to argue for or against God or a metaphysical proposition such as the cosmological argument! The Philosophy of Religion as an academic subject doesn’t involve itself in creeds, the Gospels, or bible inerrancy but in the logical coherence of the claims, concepts and propositions. What I have been arguing against is the poor logic in the arguments that you’ve given me.


It was our choice, it was not compelled.

You contradict yourself yet again. You’ve clearly said a “trial of faith” was inposed on us by making us “forget” our previous existence; so there was no choice.


That is your opinion. I have corrected you on many misrepresentations here without quipping about it. It is therefore hypocritical to accuse me of being incoherent and absurd in reciting the beliefs of Christians for it is not me you insult but every Christian with these beliefs, and, of course God. God will not be mocked.

If you don’t mind I would prefer it if you were to state what these “many misrepresentation” are instead of just alluding to them; for then I can respond accordingly.



A Supreme Being, as defined in most dictionaries, means God, which makes this untrue.

I’m sure you understand that dictionary definitions represent popularity and general public usage; they are not exhaustive and certainly do not curtail or inhibit further analysis. Would any religious person say they take their understanding from what is written in a dictionary? I rather think not.

And anyway it remains necessarily the case that the term “supreme” means the greatest possible X, and that is precisely that what God is said to be, as per St Anselm’s: “that than which nothing greater can be conceived”, or as per theist philosopher Alvin Plantinger’s term:
“maximal greatness”. You seem to be arguing God is not those things, and in which the entity you call God is not the Supreme Being.




Why can't he be all-loving and benevolent.

There is suffering in God's world, therefore it is logically impossible for him to be all-loving and benevolent. The contradiction cannot be overturned; all you can do is to offer excuses in mitigation (Theodicy).

The influence of the Holy Ghost intervenes on Gods behalf.

I’ll repeat what I said: There is no substantive difference between a God that never intervenes and no God at all. In the post previous to this one, where I mentioned the evil and suffering in the world you replied: “No, that is all caused by man, not by God.” Tell that to the mother of an eighteen month old baby that is dying from Leukaemia. And then explain to me, what has that innocent infant done to deserve such suffering in the face of a so-called benevolent and all-loving God?
 
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