There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

[Sapiens]

Jesus said- "I didn't come to overthrow the old laws", and left it to our FREE WILL to either live by them, or by his new enlightened approach, and people quickly cottoned on-
"The covenant of which Jesus is mediator is superior to the old one" (Hebrews 8:6)

So call it a test, and if people still want to keep slaves I'm sure they'd flunk bigtime..

How about killing disobedient children?

 

[metis]

For so many in the Abrahamic faiths, there's a tendency to look back thousands of years ago at what's in their scriptures and for some reason believe that divine inspiration stopped at that point, which I would suggest isn't too logical.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

How about killing disobedient children?

I can think of some who need a good clip round the ear like my nieces cheeky son who stabbed me in the thigh with a ballpoint pen earlier this year.
Got my own back though, it was his 5th birthday the other day and I never sent him a card. hehe..

(PS- the stabbing was my fault, I knew they were coming to visit but i forget to hide all sharp objects)

 

[Ouroboros]

Well, it sounds much less immoral when you put it that way!

Since God said it, then it must be moral. :/

Fanatic Religious morality:

Murder is a sin, unless God commands it.

Slavery is immoral, unless God said it's okay.

Etc.

 

[Serenity7855]

Then tell me right now. Book and verse, please

I am sorry but I never, ever responded to rude and cockie demands

You're right. I looked up those verses. Sorry that I can't remember and recite 17 specific verses from memory. Did I ever claim that I was doing that? I believe I said I would find you verses, which is exactly what I did.

You are wriggling and it is embarrassing.

It is my own question and it is perfectly valid. It's not surprisingly that other people in the world would come to the same conclusion when reading these verses of your holy book.

Well, that is not true. Only Christians and failed Christians would have read the pages of the Holy Bible. Christians would not critique that which they fervently believe. Only failed Christians are bitter enough with their failure to criticise that which they once claimed to believe in. It is always the way that a failed Christian rarely leaves the faith amicably because they blame their faith for their failure in not receiving the Holy Ghost when it is their own sins that did it. Lastly, Why would atheists read it?

I don't care. You are wrong.

No, I am not. You know what they say about those who do not care? The are usually made to care.

The slavery in the bible is not just indentured servitude as your Christian apologists would have you believe.

No it was not the 18th century practice of indentured servitude. It was as my Christian apologist has said it was. A job.

In those verses I referenced it tells you how much you can pay for slaves,

What, do you mean like a salary.

that they are your property to be passed on to your children,

Like in a family business where the children take over the same work force.

where to get them,

Like the Job Centre or Employment Agency

how to mark them as your slaves by piercing their ear with a nail,

Like wearing a uniform.

It says that you can beat your slaves and if they die within the first few days then you are punished however if they live for a day or two and then die you aren't and it tells you how you can trick a fellow Jew into being a permanent slave by giving them a wife.

You mis-understand and take out of context, but why? Why do you search for malicious manipulations of words to use against Christians? As you do not believe in divinity why do you proactively try and discredit them. I see nobody evangelising to you, indeed, Christianity is better off without those who critique with no other reason but to contend. So, why do you attempt to turn an unconditionally loving, caring, compassionate, empathetic, merciful, just and benevolent God into a evil genocidal murderer, and then make it your business to come on here and tell devout Christians who you believe our God is. What have the done to you to warrant such a hostile act. Is this how you get your kicks because you are a failed Christian who could not live the Abrahamic Covenant.

Does all of that sound like a God who is against slavery or is making rules for it?

God is a God of unconditional love. He cannot be held accountable for the free agency of man neither can he intervene. Those of us who try to live the higher law know this and accept it.

these verses didn't come from an atheist website, they came right from the bible. Look them up. And they aren't taken out of context, tell me a context when it is ok to own another human being as property.

When that person would die of starvation or exposure if he were not hired.

Again, Book and verse, please.

I am sorry but I never, ever responded to rude and cockie demands

Let's see those tires spin some more

Well, I have not done that yet so your slur is a falsehood. But please, do not feel morally accountable for that. It is probably one of the sins that caused your demise from christian to atheist.

 

[Serenity7855]

How about killing disobedient children?

He didn't. It was as a result of their parents that they were taken straight into the highest kingdoms of heaven. Maybe you prefer it for them to be left like the Children of Brazil, starving and abused. But why concern yourself, it is a load of huha dreamt up by idiots.

 

[Serenity7855]

Since God said it, then it must be moral. :/

If God said it then it is.

Fanatic Religious morality:

What, like though shalt not commit adultery, or steal or murder, or bear false witness

Murder is a sin, unless God commands it.

God has never commanded murder. His children's actions have done that.

Slavery is immoral, unless God said it's okay.

The kind of slavery you refer to was an act of mercy.

Etc.

 

[Serenity7855]

For so many in the Abrahamic faiths, there's a tendency to look back thousands of years ago at what's in their scriptures and for some reason believe that divine inspiration stopped at that point, which I would suggest isn't too logical.

I live under the Abrahamic faith. I do not think that inspiration has stopped. That would be illogical.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Since God said it, then it must be moral. :/

Fanatic Religious morality:

Murder is a sin, unless God commands it.

Slavery is immoral, unless God said it's okay.

Etc.

If God said it then it is.


What, like though shalt not commit adultery, or steal or murder, or bear false witness

God has never commanded murder. His children's actions have done that.


The kind of slavery you refer to was an act of mercy.

Etc.

Hmmmm

 

[TheGunShoj]

I am sorry but I never, ever responded to rude and cockie demands

Not sure how that was rude. You said you had already done so, I was asking you to do it once more because apparently I missed it and I even said please. Can you just admit that you can't so that we can move on?

You are wriggling and it is embarrassing.

Are you delusional? I simply said that I did not remember all 17 of those verses and that I found them from sources online as I stated I would. How is that "wriggling" and how is it embarrassing for me in the least? Sounds like you're responding to a completely different post but I don't think you are. Non sequitur of the day.

Well, that is not true. Only Christians and failed Christians would have read the pages of the Holy Bible. Christians would not critique that which they fervently believe. Only failed Christians are bitter enough with their failure to criticise that which they once claimed to believe in. It is always the way that a failed Christian rarely leaves the faith amicably because they blame their faith for their failure in not receiving the Holy Ghost when it is their own sins that did it. Lastly, Why would atheists read it?

This whole thing is nonsense, of course atheists read the bible.

No it was not the 18th century practice of indentured servitude. It was as my Christian apologist has said it was. A job.

Whatever you want to call it, it's wrong. Unless of course you call it slavery. Which is what it is.

What, do you mean like a salary.

No I mean like how I pay the owner of a baseball card for it and then it becomes my property forever to do whatever I want with it.

Like in a family business where the children take over the same work force.

Sure, if the work force is made up of prisoners who will work for that family until they die.

Like the Job Centre or Employment Agency

Yeah where they are allowed to beat you within and inch of your life and then if you die after a few days, it's cool.

Like wearing a uniform.

Yes by painfully and permanently scarring your body.

God is a God of unconditional love.

Yet if you don't love him back you burn in a lake of fire forever. Real unconditional.

When that person would die of starvation or exposure if he were not hired.

Nope. Are these really your rebuttals for the atrocities that I just listed? Being totally honest. This is pathetic and kind of disgusting that you are so willing to downplay these obscene verses and just sweep them under the rug.

I am sorry but I never, ever responded to rude and cockie demands

Because you don't have an answer.

Well, I have not done that yet so your slur is a falsehood. But please, do not feel morally accountable for that. It is probably one of the sins that caused your demise from christian to atheist.

page#30 post #3292 You said " No, it is those who are without any moral code and, therefore, no real accountability, that are more likely to condone rape and slavery, like atheists, for example."

Are you lying or did you actually just forget how you felt about atheists from just a few pages ago? Honestly, neither would surprise me.

 

[TheGunShoj]

God has never commanded murder. His children's actions have done that.

huh, interesting....have you even read your bible?

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

NUMBERS 31:17-18 God commanded Moses to kill all of the male Midianite children and "kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

Just to name a few. I'm sure all those children and infants deserved to die...and I wonder what they were going to do with all those virgins they kept for themselves....hmm, probably just going to treat them to a spa day.

 

[Parsimony]

I kinda have to wonder about Biblical slavery. If it really did simply represent a job for those who could not afford to do better, were those people allowed to quit their servitude and move on to better pastures if a better opportunity did present itself? If not, that would seem a bit problematic for justifying it. I'd also have to wonder why one's status as a virgin should have any impact at all on whether they deserve the death penalty or not (in the context of Israel conquering foreign nations, that is).

 

[TheGunShoj]

I kinda have to wonder about Biblical slavery. If it really did simply represent a job for those who could not afford to do better, were those people allowed to quit their servitude and move on to better pastures if a better opportunity did present itself? If not, that would seem a bit problematic for justifying it. I'd also have to wonder why one's status as a virgin should have any impact at all on whether they deserve the death penalty or not (in the context of Israel conquering foreign nations, that is).

It's not simply a job. Just look at these 2 verses.

f you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you just look at these, it's pretty obvious it isn't simply a job you can quit any time. You can purchase people and they become your property to be inherited by your children and as far as Hebrew slaves they must serve the 6 years, they can't leave whenever they want during that time.

 

[Ouroboros]

I kinda have to wonder about Biblical slavery. If it really did simply represent a job for those who could not afford to do better, were those people allowed to quit their servitude and move on to better pastures if a better opportunity did present itself? If not, that would seem a bit problematic for justifying it. I'd also have to wonder why one's status as a virgin should have any impact at all on whether they deserve the death penalty or not (in the context of Israel conquering foreign nations, that is).

Another take on the excuses for slavery is that why wasn't God giving them a higher standard on the moral? Basically, if there are people who needs to sell their own children as slaves to afford food for the day, why didn't God just command the people to create a welfare system to take care of them? Why couldn't God just demand a moral code that the people who had enough would support those who didn't? Why give commands about how to deal with slavery when there are other solutions to the problem?

Either God is immoral and support slavery, or he's stupid and can't see alternative solutions.

Oh, and by the way, why would people starve if God can control weather? He controls a bunch of miracles in the Old Testament, but he's okay with them starving and selling their kids as slaves...

It's a sick God portrayed in the Old Testament.

 

[Serenity7855]

huh, interesting....have you even read your bible?

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryCommentariesCommentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible1 Samuel1 Samuel 15
1 Samuel 15


CHAPTER 15

1 Samuel 15:1-6 . SAUL SENT TO DESTROY AMALEK.

1. Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee . . .: now therefore hearken thou unto . . . the Lord--Several years had been passed in successful military operations against troublesome neighbors. During these Saul had been left to act in a great measure at his own discretion as an independent prince. Now a second test is proposed of his possessing the character of a theocratic monarch in Israel; and in announcing the duty required of him, Samuel brought before him his official station as the Lord's vicegerent, and the peculiar obligation under which he was laid to act in that capacity. He had formerly done wrong, for which a severe rebuke and threatening were administered to him ( 1 Samuel 13:13 1 Samuel 13:14 ). Now an opportunity was afforded him of retrieving that error by an exact obedience to the divine command.

I love it when posters like you post scriptures out of context to misrepresent the scriptures. It shows the dishonesty of atheists, such as yourself, and it gives me an opportunity to research it with the knowledge that my findings will almost certainly expose the writer as being dishonest. There is no accepting here.

2, 3. Amalek--the powerful tribe which inhabited the country immediately to the eastward of the northern Cu****es. Their territory extended over the whole of the eastern portion of the desert of Sinai to Rephidim--the earliest opponent ( Deuteronomy 25:18 , Exodus 17:8-16 )--the hereditary and restless enemy of Israel ( Numbers 14:45 , Judges 3:13 , 6:3 ), and who had not repented ( 1 Samuel 14:48 ) of their bitter and sleepless hatred during the five hundred years that had elapsed since their doom was pronounced. Being a people of nomadic habits, they were as plundering and dangerous as the Bedouin Arabs, particularly to the southern tribes. The national interest required, and God, as KING OF ISRAEL, decreed that this public enemy should be removed. Their destruction was to be without reservation or exception.

1 Samuel 15 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

NUMBERS 31:17-18 God commanded Moses to kill all of the male Midianite children and "kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

When ever there is a cleaning of evil there is always evil people who have contravened the law. It is by their own hands that they were killed.

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host--The displeasure of the great leader, though it appears the ebullition of a fierce and sanguinary temper, arose in reality from a pious and enlightened regard to the best interests of Israel. No order had been given for the slaughter of the women, and in ancient war they were commonly reserved for slaves. By their antecedent conduct, however, the Midianitish women had forfeited all claims to mild or merciful treatment; and the sacred character, the avowed object of the war ( Numbers 31:2 Numbers 31:3 ), made their slaughter necessary without any special order. But why "kill every male among the little ones"? It was designed to be a war of extermination, such as God Himself had ordered against the people of Canaan, whom the Midianites equalled in the enormity of their wickedness.
Numbers 31 Commentary - Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible

Just to name a few. I'm sure all those children and infants deserved to die...and I wonder what they were going to do with all those virgins they kept for themselves....hmm, probably just going to treat them to a spa day.

What was the alternative? To leave them to starve and be abused or to be taken straight to the highest Kingdom of God. You can quote as many of these out of context verses but you will never justify your reasons for straying from the fold of the lamb. But more importantly Why do you search for malicious manipulations of words to use against Christians? As you do not believe in divinity why do you proactively try and discredit them. I see nobody evangelising to you, indeed, Christianity is better off without those who critique with no other reason but to contend. So, why do you attempt to turn an unconditionally loving, caring, compassionate, empathetic, merciful, just and benevolent God into a evil genocidal murderer, and then make it your business to come on here and tell devout Christians who you believe our God is. What have they done to you to warrant such a hostile act. Is this how you get your kicks because you are a failed Christian who could not live the Abrahamic Covenant.

I thought it best to repeat some of this because you avoided answering it in my last post so I thought you might have forgotten to respond and I am giving you a second opportunity with

 

[Serenity7855]

It's not simply a job. Just look at these 2 verses.

f you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

But you have repeatedly said that the owner of the slave will have that ownership until the slave dies. Your words, however, you now give us a scripture that tells us that the slaveship is temporary, like a contract of employment. That is unless the slave is happy with his lot and desires to remain for the duration of his life. That being the case he is given a uniform to distinguish himself from other slaves. What a very carefully constructed method of feeding the poor and utilising them as a paid work force.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Again, as long as the first quote is kept this is just a very industrious addition with both slave and owner being happy with there circumstances. the people of Israel were not in the same position as the slaves. there was no need for them to become volunteer slaves.

If you just look at these, it's pretty obvious it isn't simply a job you can quit any time. You can purchase people and they become your property to be inherited by your children and as far as Hebrew slaves they must serve the 6 years, they can't leave whenever they want during that time

When you sign a contract of employment then you are obligated to that employer for as long has the contract is in force, usually one year. The same applies here but the contract is for 6 years. They did not have to sign the contract and select the job that they signed up for, no, they wanted the job for 6 years. You are trying to portray the slaves in the same light as those in America 200 odd years ago specifically to tarnish the Christian God because of your own failings. You even tried to get the reader to believe that a nail was used to pierce the slaves ear, thus insinuating that they are being treated unkindly. but an awl was used to pierce the slaves ear at their delight and acceptance to become the lifelong property of their master. it is what the slave wanted, a job for life. Your poor attempt at trying to vilify God, makes your modus operandum clear and concise. You could not comply so you make the rules unfair and erroneous. that is resentful, rancorous and petulant.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I love it when posters like you post scriptures out of context to misrepresent the scriptures. It shows the dishonesty of atheists, such as yourself, and it gives me an opportunity to research it with the knowledge that my findings will almost certainly expose the writer as being dishonest. There is no accepting here.


When ever there is a cleaning of evil there is always evil people who have contravened the law. It is by their own hands that they were killed.


I thought it best to repeat some of this because you avoided answering it in my last post so I thought you might have forgotten to respond and I am giving you a second opportunity with

How does this context change the apparent fact that the god of the Bible commanded humans to kill other humans?

What was the alternative? To leave them to starve and be abused or to be taken straight to the highest Kingdom of God. You can quote as many of these out of context verses but you will never justify your reasons for straying from the fold of the lamb. But more importantly Why do you search for malicious manipulations of words to use against Christians? As you do not believe in divinity why do you proactively try and discredit them. I see nobody evangelising to you, indeed, Christianity is better off without those who critique with no other reason but to contend. So, why do you attempt to turn an unconditionally loving, caring, compassionate, empathetic, merciful, just and benevolent God into a evil genocidal murderer, and then make it your business to come on here and tell devout Christians who you believe our God is. What have they done to you to warrant such a hostile act. Is this how you get your kicks because you are a failed Christian who could not live the Abrahamic Covenant.

This is just the same old whining and belly aching from you.

This is a debate forum. You're going to have to come to terms with that.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When you sign a contract of employment then you are obligated to that employer for as long has the contract is in force, usually one year. The same applies here but the contract is for 6 years. They did not have to sign the contract and select the job that they signed up for, no, they wanted the job for 6 years. You are trying to portray the slaves in the same light as those in America 200 odd years ago specifically to tarnish the Christian God because of your own failings. You even tried to get the reader to believe that a nail was used to pierce the slaves ear, thus insinuating that they are being treated unkindly. but an awl was used to pierce the slaves ear at their delight and acceptance to become the lifelong property of their master. it is what the slave wanted, a job for life. Your poor attempt at trying to vilify God, makes your modus operandum clear and concise. You could not comply so you make the rules unfair and erroneous. that is resentful, rancorous and petulant.

Pure rubbish. :areyoucra

 

[SkepticThinker]

Another take on the excuses for slavery is that why wasn't God giving them a higher standard on the moral? Basically, if there are people who needs to sell their own children as slaves to afford food for the day, why didn't God just command the people to create a welfare system to take care of them? Why couldn't God just demand a moral code that the people who had enough would support those who didn't? Why give commands about how to deal with slavery when there are other solutions to the problem?

Either God is immoral and support slavery, or he's stupid and can't see alternative solutions.

Oh, and by the way, why would people starve if God can control weather? He controls a bunch of miracles in the Old Testament, but he's okay with them starving and selling their kids as slaves...

It's a sick God portrayed in the Old Testament.

This is pretty much my thinking on this.

 

[TheGunShoj]

But you have repeatedly said that the owner of the slave will have that ownership until the slave dies. Your words, however, you now give us a scripture that tells us that the slaveship is temporary, like a contract of employment. That is unless the slave is happy with his lot and desires to remain for the duration of his life. That being the case he is given a uniform to distinguish himself from other slaves. What a very carefully constructed method of feeding the poor and utilising them as a paid work force.



Again, as long as the first quote is kept this is just a very industrious addition with both slave and owner being happy with there circumstances. the people of Israel were not in the same position as the slaves. there was no need for them to become volunteer slaves.

Now look whos taking things out of context. There are two different types of slavery. The verse you are referring to applies only to hebrew slaves but there is a loop hole to trick the man into remaining a slave forever. If he's given a wife and has children, both the wife and children stay with the slaver when the man goes free, of course the man won't want to leave his family alone with a slaver so he will be forced into staying. Not because he's happy being a slave.