So, in terms of our recent history, you're saying you don't believe in an interventionist God? Prayers could be heard, but wouldn't be directly responded to, for example?
Prayers have always been answered by the influence of the Holy Ghost. The testator of all that is true. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.There is a very good theory, involving quantum sub-automic particles, on how he might do that, but maybe for another time.
I reckon we'll struggle to understand each other on some things, but a large part of why I'm here (on RF) is to better understand other people's views of the world, life, and religion. Happy to have a crack and see how we go.
Yes, of course we will not see eye to eye on everything, we both sit on opposite sides of the table. But isn't that what makes debating interesting and enjoyable?
Okay, so God set-up the environment, created us, and this life is basically our chance to redeem ourselves (as a species)? Sorry, I'm paraphrasing. Written some long posts tonight, and I'm a little keyboard-weary to be honest...!
I am not sure how the environment was set up, the formation of the earth, that is. We are told that God organised the matter that was into our earth, however, does that mean it was a result of his hands or the Big Bang that he might have caused. I do not think it matters either way but I just do not think it is set in stone either.
Yes, he created us from the dust of the earth, however, it is more then likely that he created everything else via the process of evolution by biogenesis. That is my belief.
Yes, Redemption is the name of the game. It is the reason for our existence. To be tried and tested in the flesh and then to be held accountable for our mortal probation, to be judged from the book of life by him who is worthy to judge us.
I can understand a view that God doesn't intervene, as long as that view is consistently held. So no direct intervention at any point.
It is essential for it to be consistently held to the point that no bilge pump is ever required in that boat. There can be no leaks. Complete abstinence from intervention or the boat sinks with all lives lost.
Well, obviously not 'at any point' completely, but I'll assume he was involved at the start of mankind, and will be at the end of mankind. The period in the middle, however long that might be, no intervention. Is that your belief?
You may regret asking that question, as I tend to go on a bit with subjects that really interest me. Interesting that you say this though. Essentially it is indeed my belief, but I need to qualify it. Not many non-believer actually know this. It is a crucial period of the Plan of Redemption consisting of many complex anomalies that were needed to make it all function correctly. In scripture we see a almost analogous story that on the surface seems straight forward and almost unnecessary in kick starting humanity. One of those complexities is that when the Garden of Eden was created it was in a state of perfection, celestialised. Nothing died and procreation was unnecessary because there was no requirement to replenish anything. Adam and Eve were created from the dust, that was without imperfections, and created as perfect being. Procreation for them was also unnecessary because they would never die. Procreation was not even known to them so they walked in their nakedness with no carnal desires for each other, as they were not carnal beings. They had no knowledge of how to procreate. God was able to freely dwell in their presence as they were like unto him, perfect. In that current state nothing would ever change and we, as spirits, would remain as we were with no means to gain a body through procreation.
God gave to Adam and Eve two commandments. One, that they should not eat from the tree of knowledge, and two, that they should go forth and multiply to replenish the earth, thereby, fulfilling Gods marvellous work and wonder to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Big problem there is that neither could be accomplished without breaking one of those commandments. Enter stage left, the facilitator, Satan, that old serpent who had been banned to dwell on earth.
Satan set about convincing the weaker of the two, Eve, to partake of the fruit because he wanted Eve to sin against God to demonstrate his influence. He thought he was successful, but, little did he know, he was playing into Gods hands, and she did eat of the fruit, making Gods second commandment possible, and then told Adam what she had done. After a big row, where Eve told Adam that he no longer showed her any affection and cares more about football then her, he had no option but to partake of the fruit as she would be in a fallen state making it impossible for him to be with her, so he had no option but to partake of the fruit at which time the fall had been set into motion. We all know what then followed, They became mortal and we're sent into the lone and dreary world to fend for themselves. The fall from perfection to mortality was complete. Humanity had been born and from that point God could not intervene, although they did hear his voice a couple of times, ordering Pizza, but did not see him.
Sorry about the length of that, it could be longer if I told it all but it is very complex and interwoven with the pre-existence and the war in heaven right up until the coming of the saviour and Armageddon. It is by no means a simple event. However, God was involved in the beginning because circumstances allowed for it. Will he be involved at the end? I don't know. Only after salvation and the Judgement day, that is for sure.
So, to your mind, can God intervene but chooses not to (to test us perhaps) or is God unable to intervene (ie. not omnipotent)?
No, that is not my belief. I now that I am going to be seen as controversial on this point but I believe that God has the power to do anything that can be done. That does not, in my opinion, detract from his omnipotence in anyway as logic dictates that you cannot do that which cannot be done, unless you are a magician owning a hat and a white rabbit. So no, I believe that there are supernatural laws that are the same as natural laws that cannot be changed. Like when a people become sufficiently wicked their destruction is assured. We are getting there. Once the plan of Redemption was set into motion then God could not intervene as to do so would stick a Huge spanner in the works messing everything up. It sound like God has constraints but if he were capable of doing the impossible there would be no need for our mortal probation. He could have just flicked his figures and we would all be back with him having perfected bodies and minds. It is a fallacy to think that God can do something that cannot be done.
I am sorry for the length of this but the Plan of Redemption is not a simple plan. I have skimmed the surface of it, however, the intricate details are not a requirement for salvation. Just to live a Christ like life is sufficient for everyone. I choose to ask questions and the answers caused me to ask more questions, until I came to a point where I am now familiar with every aspect of God's marvelous work and wonder, with discoveries in science strengthening my testimony everyday. A bit like starting a foundation course in maths and progressing from addition and subtraction, to algebra to quadratic equation, complex numbers, mathematical modelling, factors, geometry, integrational calculus, integration by parts and differentiational calculus. Each step built upon the previous step until the most intricate of calculations become as simple as it's foundation. Each step encouraging you to go deeper to understand more fully. It is quite a miraculous process. I feel like a pig in the perverbial, from morning to night, knowing what it is all about. Where we came from, why we are here, and where are we going. A place for everything and everything having a place. Which is why, when I say on here that I never get offended, I am telling the truth, because, but for the grace of God go I. I have exactly what they think doesn't exist. My only sadness is that I cannot give them what I have, but God has provided a way for all of mankind to come to know Him personally. A method that if adhered to is guaranteed to work and get you enrolled onto a foundation course that will eventually give you a Professorship in the character and will of God. It works everytime without fail. How's that. You cannot be fairer then that can you. Nice talking to you my friend.
James 1:5-6
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the btruth of all things.
