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There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Ah, I understand you, you meant that the Bible is literally the word of God, but God wasn't literal in his description of events in Genesis? If so, my apologies for misreading you.

Why do you think that God was not literal in his description of events in Genesis. I have my opinions but I would like to know why you do not think the events actually happened.

I believe the Bible is a humdrum collection of books, some are based on old folk tales (flood myths, creation myths etc), some are created to spread wisdom and ideas, some are honest first-person accounts of real events, some are first-person accounts of what the author believed he saw but was wrong, and some are right out lies fabricated for political agendas, or to hurt the Roman Empire.

This is, of course, your right. I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. It is partly my opinion as well. It really doesn't matter what the origins of the words are, what is important is the words themselves, and the message they bring to the world. It is not a history book. The New Testament is not even chronologically correct. It is a book of Commandments intended to bring man back to his father in heaven.

By what authority do you make these statements. If it is just your belief, well, fair enough, however, if you are peddling them as fact then you must support it with evidence.

Some of the accounts were written centuries after the events they describe. Then all the books were selected by the Church that compiled the Bible, some were tossed out and some were kept. Some were edited or spliced with other texts, parts were removed and parts were added in order to suit the religious and political ideas of those editors.

It makes no difference when the accounts were written. God has selected the words that he wants to appear in his Holy Bible.

But all the text were selected by God. Whatever reasoning man had in compiling it is secondary to what God wanted. It is his literal words selected from a host of sources.

And yes, you can forge men into paths of righteousness, by giving them instructions and moral rules that aren't necessarily morally sane, but achieves some agenda. For example the concept that a man shouldn't covet his neighbour's possessions, including his wife. A morally sound concept would be that a man's wife is not his posession, and could probably say something about a woman coveting her neighbour's husband as well.

A man's wife is not his possession. But it is his responsibility to insure she is kept safe, feed and clothed and is treated with love and respect. That he would Covent his nieghbours wife would distract him from his moral obligations to his own wife and family. It brings disharmony to the family unit and can effect many individuals, so, God has decided that we shouldn't do that, and I, for one, agree with him. The commandment is relevant to men and women.

Or the fact that Jesus says that if a man looks at a woman "with lust", and the two are not married, then he must pluck out his eye and toss it away, or face eternal punishment in Hell. What kind of morally sane God would invoke eternal punishment for something that every heterosexual 17-year-old has done?

It does not say that. It says.

Matthew 6

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The eye plucking refers to a different principle altogether. So the answer is that you have either misread it or someone is telling you lies. Even the eye plucking bit does not say you will go to hell. It says that if you allow it to continue you might end up in jail because of what it might lead to.


Or the fact that homosexuals should be stoned to death. This is a rule the Bible imposes on us "to guide and direct men into paths of righteousness and then eternal life"? Why did the good Lord create some people with urges and sexual orientations and instincts like that, and then demand they be stoned to death?

Once again, that is not what it says. It says:

Leviticus 20

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 18

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

These versus are found in the Old Testament at the time when the Mosaic Law was in force. They were fulfilled when Jesus gave the Beatitude and brought in the Abrahamic laws but the sin remained. The sin is anal sex not homosexuality. It is sodomy not the love of one man to another. There is no scripture that condemns love, just the inappropriate use of the body, regardless as to whether it is man on man or man on women the bible condemn anal sex.

Lastly, there is absolutely no concrete evidence to say that Gays are created and not made. Science is desperately seeking for evidence to be able to point figures at religion, however, thus far no evidence exists. That is not to say that gays have a choice in their sexual orientation. I do not think they have, however, the fault lies with mankind and not God - nurture. Of course, to have an urge is one thing but to act upon that urge is another story. We are a society who lack self control and do what we want instead of what we ought to.


Why does the Bible only mention animals, plants, and geography visible from the Middle East at the time of writing? If God intended this religion for the entire world, why doesn't it mention the other parts of it? Maybe because the humans who wrote it didn't have knowledge of anything else than what they could see?

Does this even matter. Surely it is the principles it teaches that are of paramount importance and not the culture that enacted them.

It doesn't add up if one supposes the enitre Bible is directly inspired by God. God should show knowledge beyond that of the humans who wrote the Bible.

He does. Someone has told you that. My advice is to read it's pages with impartiality and a desire to know the truth. If you do not understand any of it then ask someone. But read it for comprehension. There are far to many people willing to misinterpret it for you in their attempt to be right and thwart the perfect plan of salvation.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
ah, my apologies, I misunderstood where you were going with that.
I'm am agnostic atheist, no gods to speak of, why do you ask, or, why is that relevant?
I'm new here and just asking you know. Thanks for the reply.
As an agnostic atheist, what do you represent or what is your philosophy? Do you have to study to become one or just read, and read more books?

You know I was reading posts from Legion Onomoi and I was wondering where he got all these knowledge because he got pages of answers to any questions one could ask. I hope you are not like this guy.

Anyway, what can we debate or argue?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You know I was reading posts from Legion Onomoi and I was wondering where he got all these knowledge because he got pages of answers to any questions one could ask. I hope you are not like this guy.


He is one of the most well read persons on this board.

Never seen someone who is able to hold that much knowledge on tap.


If you don't like him you don't like knowledge, because I have checked and debated with him. He is a reflection of the CURRENT state of biblical scholarships.

He is not perfect, and makes mistakes, but it really doesn't get much better.

What makes or breaks someone here is how much bias they show in their opinion, and how honest they are about said bias.

I have bias and try top admit it in certain areas I go out on my own limbs so to speak.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Very intellectually astute. What an asset you are to the militant atheists. Do you write for a comic book, by any chance, or are you a connoisseur of the ancient art of confrontation.

Very intellectually astute. What an asset you are to the militant theists. Do you write for a comic book, by any chance, or are you a connoisseur of the ancient art of confrontation


Weak attacks on others work both ways and should not be used.


You would not be knee deep in it, had you started this thread with more civility, its the lack of credible knowledge that is getting you in trouble here.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You believe that the bible could be a forgery?

Not by definition it Is not. Parts of it are though ;)

Forgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Copies, studio replicas, and reproductions are not considered forgeries, though they may later become forgeries through knowing and willful misrepresentations


many Christians are guilty of the later part with a literal interpretation of something they know nothing about, held fast by personal bias from ignorance.

ARE you guilty by placing a personal version of Genesis into the history of the big bang, could be the question ???



It's contents are intended to guide and direct men into paths of righteousness and then eternal life. How do you forge that?

The same way it was authored by multiple unknown authors over hundred of years.

While it is not a forgery as a whole, the above argument fails.


But even more important then that, why?

Why would anyone want to produce a forgery of good honest precepts and principles.

Some kings change religion and scripture through their own personal needs.


King Josiah did just that in the monotheistic reforms. The bible was retooled after 622 BC.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Not by definition it Is not. Parts of it are though ;)

Forgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Copies, studio replicas, and reproductions are not considered forgeries, though they may later become forgeries through knowing and willful misrepresentations


many Christians are guilty of the later part with a literal interpretation of something they know nothing about, held fast by personal bias from ignorance.

ARE you guilty by placing a personal version of Genesis into the history of the big bang, could be the question ???





The same way it was authored by multiple unknown authors over hundred of years.

While it is not a forgery as a whole, the above argument fails.




Some kings change religion and scripture through their own personal needs.


King Josiah did just that in the monotheistic reforms. The bible was retooled after 622 BC.

In all seriousness, what do you know about the Holy Bible? From what you are attempting to say here, very little. I read the authorised King James Version and if you knew anything about its translation you would not make these silly claims. Indeed, your comments do not fit with any of the early translations. From the Gutenberg Bible to the Geneva Bible to the KJV and in between, the Great Bible, the Covondale Bible and the Bishops Bible, you misrepresent them all.
 
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Awkward Fingers

Omphaloskeptic
I'm new here and just asking you know. Thanks for the reply.
As an agnostic atheist, what do you represent or what is your philosophy? Do you have to study to become one or just read, and read more books?

You know I was reading posts from Legion Onomoi and I was wondering where he got all these knowledge because he got pages of answers to any questions one could ask. I hope you are not like this guy.

Anyway, what can we debate or argue?

Well, you could always start a new thread on... about anything, either in debate, or discussion area. I'll answer your questions, but out of respect for the OP, I wouldn't derail the thread too much.

One thing about atheists, it's really easy to be one, all it takes is not believing in a god/gods.
No other philosophy is needed. You don't HAVE to have a certain view on : if you believe in evolution, ghosts, aliens, have a certain political stance, afterlife, karma. Anything. It's only a response to the claim that there's a god.


Personally, I'm a secular humanist, for the most part, with strong feelings towards equal rights for all, and the constitution. You don't have to study, or read to become one, but it doesn't hurt. my background was in math and physics, in the Navy, ex-nuclear mechanical operator, but I've been an agnostic atheist for most of my life, I'd say early teens...

But, like I said, feel free to start a discussion thread about atheists, if you want to learn, or a debate thread.
As you're new here, I'd say go with discussion first, to get to know people, unless you have a specific topic you really want to debate
 

Awkward Fingers

Omphaloskeptic
He is one of the most well read persons on this board.

Never seen someone who is able to hold that much knowledge on tap.


If you don't like him you don't like knowledge, *snip*
All props to Legion Onomi, very very well read individual, and very intelligent.

And no offence, but I can understand JM2C on this..
Sometimes people on this board have a tendency to answer a post with a paragraph or 3 more than I feel like reading for what I thought was a simple question.

It's something you have to get used to, when you first get here, not a "then you don't like knowledge" thing, as much.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
In all seriousness, what do you know about the Holy Bible? From what you are attempting to say here, very little. I read the authorised King James Version and if you knew anything about its translation you would not make these silly claims. Indeed, your comments do not fit with any of the early translations. From the Gutenberg Bible to the Geneva Bible to the KJV and in between, the Great Bible, the Covondale Bible and the Bishops Bible, you misrepresent them all.

Do you understand the bible is not a history book nor a science book.


The biblical history is factually no where near accurate because it is religion, not history.


Abraham
Moses
Noah

Have no historicity what so ever as ever existing.

The creation accounts
The flood

Are all considered mythology.


Israelites were never in Egypt, they evolved from displaced Canaanites.


YOUR god was first a Canaanite god and evolved for hundreds of years in scripture from the ever changing Israelite cultures that were being constantly wiped out and had to rebuild their heritage.


When we get to Jesus, Jesus of the bible is not the historical man who walked Galilee. Biblical Jesus is apologetics and religion by people far removed from his actual life.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Do you understand the bible is not a history book nor a science book.


The biblical history is factually no where near accurate because it is religion, not history.


Abraham
Moses
Noah

Have no historicity what so ever as ever existing.

The creation accounts
The flood

Are all considered mythology.


Israelites were never in Egypt, they evolved from displaced Canaanites.


YOUR god was first a Canaanite god and evolved for hundreds of years in scripture from the ever changing Israelite cultures that were being constantly wiped out and had to rebuild their heritage.

My God has revealed to me exactly who he is, in the Scriptures that he has compiled for all of mankind to read. You have this thing about canaanites. Who have you been listening to?

When we get to Jesus, Jesus of the bible is not the historical man who walked Galilee. Biblical Jesus is apologetics and religion by people far removed from his actual life.

If you were reading the post here you would know that I do not believe that the bible is a history book. See post 757

This is, of course, your right. I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. It is partly my opinion as well. It really doesn't matter what the origins of the words are, what is important is the words themselves, and the message they bring to the world. It is not a history book. The New Testament is not even chronologically correct. It is a book of Commandments intended to bring man back to his father in heaven.

The flood could have been allegorical as could the creation. It is the meaning of the story that is pertinent, as it is with most of the parables. It is funny though. Their is so much evidence to support the existence of Jesus of Nazereth, even a possible eye witness account through the Jesus Papyrus and the possibility of his family tomb, the Talpiot Tomb, with their ossuaries still in them. The Jewish account of a extra ordinary Rabbi at that time, and much more, yet you claim otherwise. Now is a good time to reveal some evidence to substantiate these otherwise baseless claims.
 
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adi2d

Active Member
Now is a good time to reveal some evidence to substantiate these otherwise baseless claims.

That is good advice

You have posted what you consider evidence. The big bang. You have mentioned there is much more. Could you start with another point?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
in the Scriptures that he has compiled for all of mankind to read.

No god has ever written or compiled a word ever,let alone scripture.


You have this thing about canaanites. Who have you been listening to?


You know professors, and encyclopedias. :facepalm:

YOU should try it and learn what your talking about here.


History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Israelite monotheism evolved gradually out of pre-existing beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[76] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved and other ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on a cult of ancestors and worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[78] Its major deities were not numerous – El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god, and perhaps Shamash (the sun) in the early period.[79] By the time of the early Hebrew kings, El and Yahweh had become fused and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult




The flood could have been allegorical as could the creation.

Yet you apply a literal; reading and try and pervert the holy scripture to say something it does not.

It does not state god created the universe 13.7 billion years ago, nor did Israelites have any kind of knowledge about the earths or peoples origins.

They did not even know their own origin :sarcastic
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Serenity

You still have not adressed the elephant in the room - you are trying to use the Kalam, the first premis of the Kalam is a metaphysical intuition, (as WL Craig explainsn the article YOU posted on the version of the Kalam YOU are using) which is a hunch or a guess.

You falsely assert that metaphysical intuitions are axioms. Metaphysical intuitions are not axioms and if you think they are then no debate with you can serve any purpose - if you honestly believe that your guesses are thus unquestionable fact, frankly you are probably not sane.

Metaphysical intuitions
 

McBell

Unbound
In all seriousness, what do you know about the Holy Bible? From what you are attempting to say here, very little. I read the authorised King James Version and if you knew anything about its translation you would not make these silly claims. Indeed, your comments do not fit with any of the early translations. From the Gutenberg Bible to the Geneva Bible to the KJV and in between, the Great Bible, the Covondale Bible and the Bishops Bible, you misrepresent them all.

Wow.
There goes any credibility you had left...
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Serenity

You still have not adressed the elephant in the room - you are trying to use the Kalam, the first premis of the Kalam is a metaphysical intuition, (as WL Craig explainsn the article YOU posted on the version of the Kalam YOU are using) which is a hunch or a guess.

You falsely assert that metaphysical intuitions are axioms. Metaphysical intuitions are not axioms and if you think they are then no debate with you can serve any purpose - if you honestly believe that your guesses are thus unquestionable fact, frankly you are probably not sane.

Metaphysical intuitions

Hmmm, quite a venomous and derisively vacuous post. You have far exceeded yourself as a militant atheist. Well done.

That you cannot see the relevance of Kalam's argument is clearly indicative of how ignorant you are on this particular subject, and how debate is futile with one who persists on questioning the very simplistic laws on motion. Kalam's argument is as valid as any, that you cannot recognise that puts you out of your depth here, so, perhaps debating here with me will serve you no purpose so you should cease. Especially since you have diagnosed me, the poster and not the post, as being insane. I would say that one well and truly broke the rules and adequately demonstrated your fatuous vocation as a militant atheist, of the highest order.

For your information

1. Personal comments about Members and Staff

Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
That is good advice

You have posted what you consider evidence. The big bang. You have mentioned there is much more. Could you start with another point?


Once more - just for you

1. Was there ever a point when the universe did not exist? - Yes, Fact
2. Does the universe exist right now? - Yes, Fact
3. Could the universe have come into existence via causation or uncaused - Yes, Fact
4. Could that causation be a God - Yes, Fact
5. Is it correct to say that if it sprang into existence it would have done so outside of the realms of our natural laws, making it a supernatural event and, therefore, could be attributable to a superior being, a God - Yes, Fact

What more evidence do you need? The problem that a God could be involved in the process of the universe coming into existence is a bitter pill for you to swallow. It would take away your coveted title of atheist and replace it with agnostic, a fence sitter.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Hmmm, quite a venomous and derisively vacuous post. You have far exceeded yourself as a militant atheist. Well done.

That you cannot see the relevance of Kalam s argument is indicative of how ignorant you are on this particular subject and how debate is futile with one who persists on questioning the very simplistic laws on motion. Kalam's argument is as valid as any, that you cannot recognise that puts you out of your depth here, so perhaps debating here with me will serve you no purpose and you should cease. Especially since you have diagnosed me, the poster and not the post, as being insane. I would say that one well and truly broke the rules and adequately demonstrated your fatuous vocation as a militant atheist, of the highest order.

Again you resort to insults and accusation rather than engage on point. I will not respond in kind.

The Kalam as you have presented it begins with a premis based upon a METAPHYSICAL INTUITION. A metaphysical intuition is just a guess, but you insist that intuitions are AXIOMS. Intuitions are not axioms, they are guesses.

Please indicate whether you grasp this important point or not.

Your excuse that metaphysical intuitions are axioms was dishonest, both you and I know that they are not. It was a poor excuse that no degree of transference will resolve.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Once more - just for you

1. Was there ever a point when the universe did not exist? - Yes, Fact

No, that is false. According to the BB theory there was never a point when the universe did not exist.
2. Does the universe exist right now? - Yes, Fact
3. Could the universe have come into existence via causation or uncaused - Yes, Fact

False. Causation is a temporal phenomenon and can not apply to atemporal states.
4. Could that causation be a God - Yes, Fact
5. Is it correct to say that if it sprang into existence it would have done so outside of the realms of our natural laws, making it a supernatural event and, therefore, could be attributable to a superior being, a God - Yes, Fact

What more evidence do you need? The problem that a God could be involved in the process of the universe coming into existence is a bitter pill for you to swallow. It would take away your coveted title of atheist and replace it with agnostic, a fence sitter.

Points 1 ajd 3 are false, and the rest follow from those false premises - so you are still at zero evidence, there is nothing yet for atheists to reject.
 
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McBell

Unbound
1. Was there ever a point when the universe did not exist? - Yes, Fact
Source?

5. Is it correct to say that if it sprang into existence it would have done so outside of the realms of our natural laws, making it a supernatural event and, therefore, could be attributable to a superior being, a God - Yes, Fact
Source?

What more evidence do you need? The problem that a God could be involved in the process of the universe coming into existence is a bitter pill for you to swallow. It would take away your coveted title of atheist and replace it with agnostic, a fence sitter.
Hypocrite:
For your information

1. Personal comments about Members and Staff

Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
No, that is false. According to the BB theory there was never a point when the universe did not exist.


False. Causation is a temporal phenomenon and can not apply to atemporal states.

Points 1 ajd 3 are false, and the rest follow from those false premises - so you are still at zero evidence, there is nothing yet for atheists to reject.

No, my Friend, you have just lost all credibility, in my opinion. You are trying to denounce absolute scientific fact in an attempt to save face and hold fast to your atheistic non-belief. To accept the truth makes your belief a fallacy and you need that. At least everyone else can see the possibility in the argument, you see no wood though you are in a forrest of trees. I am not even going to give you a rebuttal as you obviously have zero knowledge on the subject being debated.
 
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