There is no argument to be used against a Messenger

[loverofhumanity]

Let's just look at the Christian Scriptures, the NT. I don't see anywhere that it supports any other religion other than Judaism, and Christians veered a long way away from Judaism. Satan, hell, and salvation seems to be what it's all about. They connect their Scriptures onto the Hebrew Bible, but they don't follow it.

Okay, what other religion, other than the Baha'i Faith, do Baha'is believe to be teaching and practicing the truth from God? I don't think Baha'is believe any of them have the truth, are teaching the truth, and are practicing the truth. Am I wrong?

We follow or try to, the spiritual teachings and virtues of all religions as we believe they are eternal. So we believe in the spiritual teachings in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita and Buddhist scriptures as well as the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

To define it more clearly we are looking at things like the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes of Jesus, to love and forgive one another, to love God which is taught in the Gita, the virtues taught in the Quran such as to repel evil with good and the Dhammapadda and Baha’i and Bab’s Writings.

If you examine the spiritual teachings of each religion, they all complement one another.

That’s why we read from the Holy Books of all the major religions in our services and why their symbols are engraved into the architecture of all our Houses of Worship.

Only in the social laws such as for crimes, some dietary laws, marriage etc these were given for the age but as each new Prophet appeared He adapted the laws to suit the needs of the age.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

So is it not then logical that we could then prove the Messengers by comparing the Attibutes?

Then in that process, those that are false, will start to become obvious?

Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony

If the world had accepted Baha’u’llah’s concept, idea, teaching of the oneness of humanity we would not have had the world wars. That’s just how priceless these teachings are. But people will say ‘why should I listen to a self appointed Messenger’. My reply is ‘then have another war’ if you cannot see the merit in humanity coming together as a family’.

It’s like a sick person refusing medicine which could cure him because he doesn’t like the doctor! How unintelligent when the cure is at our doorstep!!

 

[CG Didymus]

We follow or try to, the spiritual teachings and virtues of all religions as we believe they are eternal. So we believe in the spiritual teachings in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita and Buddhist scriptures as well as the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

If only all that a religion expected of its followers is to love. But that's never all there is. Even the Baha'i Faith is a religion of laws. Will people obey and follow all those rules? Can they? At some point, when the Faith gets larger, it will have to start enforcing those laws. How "loving" do you think the enforcers are going to be? How "loving" are the judges going to be?

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s like a sick person refusing medicine which could cure him because he doesn’t like the doctor! How unintelligent when the cure is at our doorstep!!

That is a very good analogy. What did doctors recommend in times past? Was it always the right medicine? People still die from prescriptions given to them by doctors that they have followed as prescribed. Others take too much of the medicine and die, which would be like a radical religious person OD-ing on their ideas about God. Then what if two doctors disagree? Who do you go with? And that's exactly like religion today... We have a lot of choices. And most all of them can make us feel good, at least for the short term. The Baha'i claim is that Baha'u'llah is the only doctor that knows the disease and knows the cure. None of the other "doctors", or religions, has the cure for what's wrong with the world today. But that is what so many of the other religions say too. The "doctors", or the religions, are arguing about the disease and the cure. And some are calling the other doctors crackpots.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If only all that a religion expected of its followers is to love. But that's never all there is. Even the Baha'i Faith is a religion of laws. Will people obey and follow all those rules? Can they? At some point, when the Faith gets larger, it will have to start enforcing those laws. How "loving" do you think the enforcers are going to be? How "loving" are the judges going to be?

Every society must have law and order to function properly. So which law in particular are you referring to?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is a very good analogy. What did doctors recommend in times past? Was it always the right medicine? People still die from prescriptions given to them by doctors that they have followed as prescribed. Others take too much of the medicine and die, which would be like a radical religious person OD-ing on their ideas about God. Then what if two doctors disagree? Who do you go with? And that's exactly like religion today... We have a lot of choices. And most all of them can make us feel good, at least for the short term. The Baha'i claim is that Baha'u'llah is the only doctor that knows the disease and knows the cure. None of the other "doctors", or religions, has the cure for what's wrong with the world today. But that is what so many of the other religions say too. The "doctors", or the religions, are arguing about the disease and the cure. And some are calling the other doctors crackpots.

Every age had an overriding need. With Christ He mainly addressed individual behaviour. Muhammad formed a nation with laws for that age. But now we have hundreds of nations interacting with one another and that is causing problems. So today we need a universal solution that can be acceptable to all and the only common denominator here is our common humanity. So Baha’u’llah has brought the concept and idea of the oneness of humanity. That is, we are all equal citizens of one earth, our home, and so all enjoy equal human rights. No country, race, religion or nationality is superior to another. And this is to be part of a constitution of the world and legally implemented. No one is to be left out. It is all inclusive. But it has to be agreed upon by the people of the world. A new order based on justice and human rights. I think those suffering oppression are crying for this remedy.

The oneness of mankind is the next stage after nationalism. Just like nations came about, so too will a world civilisation happen. But it will be entirely up to the people of the world whether they want to establish such an order or have another war first, probably nuclear.

The Baha’i world community is just offering its experiences as a model to show that we can have a world community governed by a world body, with its members spread throughout hundreds of countries and it’s no big deal. There’s nothing to be frightened of. It does work and remarkably peacefully. So if we can do it so too can humanity build such a universal system.

 

[rational experiences]

I'm human so are you.

Once the Multi human first parents family owned the same DNA.

We know it's true. We all owned historic the same human parent genetically.

As heavens changed each national DNA family by sacrificed DNA got inherited.

We were taught. We seek mutual rejoining as family reunited as one.

Conscious advice about biology innate says no it's not possible.

Living conditions state it's needed.

Therefore if you had to believe in God to be a good person. With good human family United ideas. Advocate as a human family member.

If I asked you why you believe in being good If you said by gods teachings.
I can say I never believed in gods teachings. But practiced personal spiritual behaviour entrainment. Gained the same result.

As it's personal.

So it's now time for the meek humanity to say I've been abused historically. Due to the history our brother under one mind agreed leadership.

Rich man's control greed technology and it's abuses Then it's time now to be united and advocate for human rights.

And not be waylaid by the ploy to argue religious DNA family agreed unity when it's impossible. The mistake each nation has carried forward. To say only it's family is correct.

We are all correct as we've all suffered the same historic conditions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Every society must have law and order to function properly. So which law in particular are you referring to?

Okay adultery and homosexuality... God wanted them stoned in the Hebrew Bible. What was the punishment God prescribed in Hinduism, in Buddhism, in Christianity, then in Islam and how in the Baha'i Faith? Even with stoning them to death didn't stop nor prevent people from doing it. And, sometimes, even religious leaders broke these laws. So, what is the point of having the law?

 

[CG Didymus]

Every age had an overriding need.

What was the great need in Hinduism? Then Buddhism. Then Judaism? And there wasn't great kingdoms and empires prior to Islam having the great need to deal with nations. And how did non-Islamic nations know what to do with themselves? Oh, and Judaism didn't have the "nation" of Israel and several kings? I remember Baha'i talking about ever increasing units of unity coming with each manifestation. Is that what you're alluding to?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay adultery and homosexuality... God wanted them stoned in the Hebrew Bible. What was the punishment God prescribed in Hinduism, in Buddhism, in Christianity, then in Islam and how in the Baha'i Faith? Even with stoning them to death didn't stop nor prevent people from doing it. And, sometimes, even religious leaders broke these laws. So, what is the point of having the law?

In the Baha’i Faith there is no punishment and although the writings forbid homosexuality it is between an individual and God, a private matter. And we are forbidden to discriminate against or protest against people who practise it. That is their personal choice and we have no right to interfere.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What was the great need in Hinduism? Then Buddhism. Then Judaism? And there wasn't great kingdoms and empires prior to Islam having the great need to deal with nations. And how did non-Islamic nations know what to do with themselves? Oh, and Judaism didn't have the "nation" of Israel and several kings? I remember Baha'i talking about ever increasing units of unity coming with each manifestation. Is that what you're alluding to?

I think as humanity evolved throughout the ages we needed new guidance and ideas to progress. So for example, now that the nations, religions and races of humanity have been brought into close contact through technology we need a universal or global ethic that can unite us all. Something we all have in common which is our common humanity is the need today.

Therefore the concept and idea of the oneness of humanity has been given by God as a means by which we can become united as a family.

Developing our spiritual capacity and learning things like meditation and mindfulness were essential for our development and some religions focused on this aspect such as Buddhism while Hinduism focused a lot on Ahimsa or non violent thoughts, words and deeds. Zoroastrian Faith taught good thoughts, good words, good deeds.

So we can see that the Manifestations focused on a twofold mission, to transform the individual and transform society. So there were both individual spiritual laws such as prayer and meditation and social laws regarding the law and order of society such as for crime and marriage and divorce etc.

 

[joelr]

Using that argument, how did, let's say Jesus and the Bab, benefit from such a proclamation?

Did not Jesus produce Billions of followers and shaped the direction of Nations?

Regards Tony

The Gospels are considered fiction in historicity, Jesus is a Greek deity. So that isn't a factor.
Bab, like Muhammad was a prolific writer and had reasons to make the claim.

A theistic God is completely unproven and revelations are as well. No reason to believe any of them. Especially the Bahai version because it contained no new science, philosophy, prophecy (actual future predictions that could only have been gotten through supernatural means). The science he gave (like the ether) was actually proven wrong so it was clear he was just giving current science and claiming God was telling it to him. He got evolution wrong, and several other scientific things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Gospels are considered fiction in historicity, Jesus is a Greek deity. So that isn't a factor.
Bab, like Muhammad was a prolific writer and had reasons to make the claim.

A theistic God is completely unproven and revelations are as well. No reason to believe any of them. Especially the Bahai version because it contained no new science, philosophy, prophecy (actual future predictions that could only have been gotten through supernatural means). The science he gave (like the ether) was actually proven wrong so it was clear he was just giving current science and claiming God was telling it to him. He got evolution wrong, and several other scientific things.

Many people have things very wrong, but 100% it was not Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab or Baha'ullah.

Regards Tony

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The story of Adam and Eve is highly symbolic.

Regards Tony

Agreed, but making it a metaphor doesn’t make it a good thing. Like Jesus’s parables, they made God look incompetent at best.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think bringing billions and/or millions of people together in a common cause is no small feat.

I see people completely passionate about not being united.

 

[rational experiences]

When a human teacher had to bring humans attention to scientific caused life change. It was to teach family why. And it was to involve family legal representation and action.

For life mind body consciousness changed. To survive and live for healing. Returned health.

We know hearing of voice in the heavens is real. Is heard by humans brain mind changed.

When humans don't understand homosexuality. It's because first we are natural balanced as human behaviour is mutual. Knowing life continues by two parents.

If something wasn t being expressed then next moment a lot of humans believed in those feelings. The heavens was proven changed.

The meaning of which was by scientific causes. As science changed the earth's stone fusion. The stone above us owned gases. And caused fallout.

We live in water stable mass oxygen for bio generation. Getting stoned hence defined gases cooled above changed. Not any victims fault.

It was a teaching.

The legality of its purpose was a list of human criminal causes that science had caused. Changed human conscious behaviours. Identified.

So it had to be both defined and listed for criminal legal action.

On humanities behalf.

How it is interpreted without the history of the testimonial written purpose is how many humans gained dishonest spiritual advice.

As humanity is always born by two parents sex. The baby inheritance innocent. As sex brings that child's development into being.

So the medical teaching said sex was a sin carrier also.

If to know our fathers origin human truth is learnt only when. Spiritual life gets harmed sacrificed. I learnt it's real.

Father had never done wrong. So our brother who answered father's bequests would in fact try to bring new awareness about old teachings lost.

It's happened for a very long time.

Healers always served humanity. As medical advice is always involved.

Genesis of our DNA changed.

And the new revelations were based on the conclusive second review undertaken as proof. Life had been sacrificed.

The modern day concern is every past dishonesty. Who should be trusted.

It's why family has to place religious status in the foreground. And meet just in the need of real change.

As it's family first and not self idolisation.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If the world had accepted Baha’u’llah’s concept, idea, teaching of the oneness of humanity we would not have had the world wars

So we should listen to the messengers because they had billions of followers but we should pity them because they weren’t believed by billions of people?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Agreed, but making it a metaphor doesn’t make it a good thing. Like Jesus’s parables, they made God look incompetent at best.

We can consider that when we understand the meaning, it shows how God is all knowing and knows what is best for us, and knows how to guide us in the use of free will choices.

As God knows what all our choices are, that each moment of our lives gives us the opportunity to use our free will in Love and service to all humanity.

There is much in the story of Adam and Eve. Adam being the first recorded Messenger when the consciousness of humanity was of sufficient capacity. Adam is humanity, Male and Female. The the story of creation is explaining that spiritual awakening, Adam being the Soul of man and Eve the self of humanity. It talks of our struggle between the material Humanity and the Spiritual Capacity.

There is a good talk on this topic, so I will post it here in case you would like to read it, otherwise please disregard.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So we should listen to the messengers because they had billions of followers but we should pity them because they weren’t believed by billions of people?

We should be ashamed of our own selves. God does not need anything from us, our pity would be for our own selves.

By reflecting on the fact that we as humanity have persecuted our path to the true knowledge of our own selves, we start to understand that we are the embodiment of sin which only the bounty of God can bring to enlightenment. Thus submission is what turns on that light and results in true life.

Regards Tony

 

[syo]

Any argument a person of faith chooses to dissprove a True Messenger of God, is just as valid against their chosen Messenger.

So is it not then logical that we could then prove the Messengers by comparing the Attibutes?

Then in that process, those that are false, will start to become obvious?

Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Regards Tony

There are no false prophets. God doesn't allow them to roam around.