There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[SkepticThinker]

It’s not hyperbole it’s what the Bible says. If a church disagrees with what God says in Scripture they can say they’re Christian all day long but that doesn’t make it so. Not sure what’s so difficult to understand here. I thought you understood the Bible? apparently not.

How did you figure out that you're the one following the one true church and all those others are wrong?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Huh? You really think I’m gonna take the time to read your long diatribe? I couldn’t care less about what you have to say.

It sounds like debate forums aren't for you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

How did you figure out that you're the one following the one true church and all those others are wrong?

I’ve explained that and not sure where you’re coming from with your posts as far as everything that’s been discussed on this thread so far.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

God and the Bible define who is or is not a Christian. It’s God’s definition.

That means nothing to me. I define who is a Christian for myself. I mostly use the same definition that the people who tell me how many strong their religion is when they say that there are 2.4 billion of them.

And why would you write that to an atheist knowing that it is meaningless to him? Since you continue to discount the opinions and experiences of others and disrespectfully treat your beliefs as fact, I feel no longer feel any duty to be solicitous or deferential regarding to yours. Don't you know that that is exactly how I feel about your beliefs? They are wrong. I generally don't use that tone. Usually, I would say that that's not what I believe. You need to give respect to get respect. You don't do that.

For example, the next reply would have sounded more like that than what I wrote instead:

I’m merely pointing out that you may have gone to a church and participated but never had any personal encounter with God for yourself.

Neither have you. Nobody has.

You didn’t have sufficient evidence but people who have been born again do have that evidence.

No, they don't. You've explained what you are calling evidence of a god. It is not that. You are misunderstanding your experience, meaning that you have misunderstood the evidence you say justifies a god belief. It does not. I had the same evidence, but eventually interpreted it correctly and left the religion.

Also I posted an easy to read article explaining the difference, did you read it or no?

What difference? Which article?

And what did you want to explain to me? Your beliefs? Why do you think I would care about them? I've explained that opinions are of no value except to those who hold them. I am only interested in any demonstrably correct ideas you might hold.

You communicate you were a Christian and the point is that you thought you were a Christian but according to God you were not. Aren’t you glad someone is telling you now?

"According to God." LOL. There you go again, pretending to have some kind of authority or special knowledge. You don't. You just have comforting beliefs.

I thought I was in good standing with God while I was drinking and drugging, living that life until I actually got saved and was born again.

Christianity was my drug. I was saved from it, and I did it myself. No god belief necessary. I had a personal renaissance, just like all of mankind as it returned to reason. "The roots of the Enlightenment can be found in the humanism of the Renaissance." So, you can call me born again. Look at the etymology of that word if you don't know it already:

I wasn’t a Christian or a believer although I thought I was.

You were a Christian if you thought you were. There is no behavioral test, and no doctrinal test beyond belief in the Christian god. Like I said, I'm using the definition of Christian that Christians use when they want to tell us how many of them there are. People were surveyed. Those who called themselves Christians were marked as such without any attempt to discover if they were "true Christians." There is no such thing as an untrue Christian unless you are referring to somebody like me who knows that he's not Christian but says he is.

Sorry if you’re offended, but hope not, that’s just the truth and maybe be angry at the previous false teachers instead.

You don't have truth. You just have faith-based beliefs, which don't rise to the level of knowledge.

And if I were to be angry with false teachers, I would be angry with you. My disapproval here is not based in your false teaching, but your arrogance and disrespect.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I’ve explained that and not sure where you’re coming from with your posts as far as everything that’s been discussed on this thread so far.

You just asserted it. You didn't demonstrate it. All those other people in those other thousands of different sects of Christianity think they've got it right too.

 

[ElishaElijah]

That means nothing to me. I define who is a Christian for myself.

Making up definitions for yourself only causes self deception, then you use and project those faulty definitions onto other people and that’s problematic. No way to come to any mutual understanding when you make up your own definitions for things.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You just asserted it. You didn't demonstrate it. All those other people in those other thousands of different sects of Christianity think they've got it right too.

No I didn’t just “assert” it. The definition of what and what is not Christian Church is defined by God in Scripture. Unbelievers are asserting that they think they know what the Bible says on these matters but they have no clue.
Ephesians 4 would be a good start

 

[ElishaElijah]

What difference? Which article?

The difference between blind faith, and biblical definition of faith that pleases God.

https://www.compellingtruth.org/God-blind-faith.html

 

[SkepticThinker]

Making up definitions for yourself only causes self deception, then you use and project those faulty definitions onto other people and that’s problematic. No way to come to any mutual understanding when you make up your own definitions for things.

Great. How do you know you've not engaged in self-deception then?

 

[SkepticThinker]

No I didn’t just “assert” it. The definition of what and what is not Christian Church is defined by God in Scripture. Unbelievers are asserting that they think they know what the Bible says on these matters but they have no clue.
Ephesians 4 would be a good start

You did. All those other people in all those other different sects just assert it too.
None of you can demonstrate it. Which of course, is the point.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Great. How do you know you've not engaged in self-deception then?

Because I am submitted to the Word of God and born again, the Scriptures are easy to understand when you have the Holy Spirit because God speaks to you, this verse explains how the Word of God is living and active, The Holy Spirit convicts and leads into all Truth.
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because I am submitted to the Word of God and born again, the Scriptures are easy to understand when you have the Holy Spirit because God speaks to you, this verse explains how the Word of God is living and active, The Holy Spirit convicts and leads into all Truth.
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Everybody else thinks that too. How do you know you're right?

 

[ElishaElijah]

You did. All those other people in all those other different sects just assert it too.
None of you can demonstrate it. Which of course, is the point.

Read the Bible and you can know for yourself otherwise your just talking nonsense.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Everybody else thinks that too. How do you know you're right?

Do you have anything else or just questions I already answered but you aren’t understanding?
The Bible is the Word of God, you would have to give an example of a Christian Church’s teaching and then compare that to what Scripture teaches. Then you will know if it’s authentic or not.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Making up definitions for yourself only causes self deception

Yes, I see. Your definition appears nowhere except perhaps in Christian apologetics sites, and you are deceived. You don't know a Christian when you see one. I do.

Here are a couple of definitions from Internet dictionaries:

• "a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Christianity."
• "a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings"

And how many such people are there? This one is from Wiki:

• "According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there were 2.2 billion Christians around the world"

I can't find your definition anywhere in any secular source. Not that it matters. I don't care how you define Christian, nor does it need be a definition I use. I just need to know what you mean when you use the word.

No way to come to any mutual understanding when you make up your own definitions for things.

The mutual understanding ship has sailed with your insistence that you but not others define Christianity. You don't. Your definition of Christianity is meaningless to me, since it assumes that your god exists when I don't. Yet you keep coming back to it as if you have some kind of authority to set the rules for discourse. You don't. Yours is just another opinion, and one I don't hold.

The difference between blind faith, and biblical definition of faith that pleases God. Is God pleased by blind faith?

Apparently you don't realize that believing scripture is blind faith, not evidence. Are you still unaware that there are people who don't consider that book authoritative or a source of knowledge? This is why I say that your worldview is a house of cards, not a solid foundation. It comes out of a book that can only be believed by faith. You're using things you blindly believe by faith to support that your faith is not blind. It is, like all religious faith.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Read the Bible and you can know for yourself otherwise your just talking nonsense.

I've read it several times.
That's a cop-out answer.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you have anything else or just questions I already answered but you aren’t understanding?
The Bible is the Word of God, you would have to give an example of a Christian Church’s teaching and then compare that to what Scripture teaches. Then you will know if it’s authentic or not.

I'm trying to make you think a little more deeply about your claims.
Alas ...

And my question stands.
"I read the Bible and I interpreted it to mean I've got it right" isn't useful answer. Because it's the same answer every other Christian from every other sect of Christianity is going to say. And every other religious-minded person from every other sect of every other religion. They're all just assertions.

 

[InChrist]

Are you aware that you are writing to skeptics who don't consider those scriptures authoritative or of divine origin, and view those words as something anybody could write and put in a book just as you describe? I realize that you don't think that, but shouldn't your comments to skeptics reflect an understanding of what they believe? You seem to be unaware that skeptics would see the scriptures you cited and think about them exactly what you are criticizing other books of being - ordinary words that any of us could write.

We see this from the people claiming that messengers of God are evidence of a divine source for their words and this a god, then they present words that anybody could have written as their evidence. They don't seem to understand how their holy words are received by others, either.

Yes, I fully understand that atheists do not consider the words of the Bible to be authoritative or of divine origin. That’s reasonable.
But I do consider the scriptures to be of divine origin and nature, so therefore authoritative despite what anyone thinks of them. I also consider the scriptures to have a supernatural ability to impact one’s innermost being, so I use scriptures at times irregardless if whether another believes in God, the Bible or not.


...For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 

[samtonga43]

Because I am submitted to the Word of God and born again, the Scriptures are easy to understand when you have the Holy Spirit because God speaks to you, this verse explains how the Word of God is living and active, The Holy Spirit convicts and leads into all Truth.
“For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This rings a bell with me and my own experience of the journey from atheism to Christianity. The Bible, to me, meant nothing; at best a jumble of words and at worse a bunch of irrational messages for those not intelligent enough to see, as Carlin did, that...
“Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever until the end of time!

I spread this "Good News of the folly of Christian belief" wherever I was allowed to do so, relishing every debate, every discussion, looking down scornfully on those who could find no evidence to convince me I was mistaken. For me, belief meant the death of intelligence.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I can't find your definition anywhere in any secular source.

Is the God of the Bible secular? Is Jesus Christ secular? Does anyone that is not born again of the Holy Spirit have the gift of Eternal Life?
“Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jesus answered, “Truly I tell you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5-7‬ ‭CSB‬‬
So I’m using Jesus’ definition, all you did was follow the rules but never met Jesus Christ for yourself.